Continuing the disciplic succession

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> Dear Krishna Priya Mataji, PAMHO. AGTSP!

>

> > Can you proof that he did establish any other system? Why someone else

> > should prove prabhu.

>

> Normally a court has to prove that the accused is guilty, not the other

> way round. You said that the ISKCON gurus are disrespecting Srila

> Prabhupada's instruction. So you have to prove that.

 

 

PAMHO Ramakanta prabhu. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!!!

 

Prabhuji, you are the one claiming that Srila Prabhupada has established

some other system than the pre-samadhi Ritvik system? So, is the burden of

proof not on you? It seems that you are turning the role around on me?

 

But anyhow: Srila Prabhupada's Instruction re Diksa, just 4 months prior to

his entering samadhi, is outlined in the by now famous July 1977 directive

letter, a direct instruction of Srila Prabhupada. As in logic later

statements supersede previous ones in importance and because of the nature

of this particular letter of instruction, it is clear that this is Srila

Prabhupada's final order regarding continued Diksa in Iskcon. The GBC and

Iskcon gurus are disregarding this Ritvik instruction of Srila Prabhupada.

There is no doubt about it in my mind. I cannot express everything here in

writing, but reading KK Desai's and other IRM devotees arguments I have firm

faith in the Ritvik Instruction of Srila Prabhupada.

 

> You say that they are doing it wrongly if they are do not act as ritviks

> and accept disciples themselves.

 

 

To be a Ritvik and accept disciples themselves is a contradiction in itself.

One can only be Ritvik and accept disciples on behalf of somebody...You will

now most likely refer to my stating that if Srila Prabhupada would appear

again and start initiating on behalf of Srila Prabhupada that would mean: he

was initiating on behalf of himself....so the ritvik disciples of SP could

accept their own disciples too. But this logic is not correct! Srila

Prabhupada is Srila Prabhupada, whether in one body or another, whereas his

disciples are other individuals....

Interestingly KK Desai wrote in TFO that Srila Prabhupada or Krishna could

overrule the Ritvik instruction in the future. Else it would continue to be

valid for the next 9500 years....

 

The question would be: how to be sure that the person claiming to be the

reincarnation of Srila Prabhupada was truly Srila Prabhupada? But this is

speculation and a matter not really relevant to the subject, since Srila

Prabhupada did not tell us, he was going to return and be diksa guru again

in ISKCON...

 

>

> Although I don't have to, I can show you that they are not acting against

> Srila Prabhupada's instructions:

>

> (1) You recently wrote (in text 8073759), "the Ritvik is not in all

> circumstances obliged to give first or second initiation to the person(s)

> being recommended" (referring to "After considering the recommendation,

> these representatives may accept the devotee as an initiated disciple of

> Srila Prabhupada" in the July 9th letter).

>

> So if the person does not initiate the devotee on behalf of Srila

> Prabhupada, he is not disrespecting Srila Prabhupada's instruction,

> especially if the devotee has not asked to be disciple of Srila

> Prabhupada.

 

What right does one have to use Srila Prabhupada's movement, books,

instructions, teachings - with other words simply use Srila Prabhupada's

formula, without any personal input and be eligible to claim the initiate

as his own???? This is called cheating, stealing, showing off with the

feathers of another....

 

 

> (2) Srila Prabhupada has authorized devotees to accept disciples provided

> they fulfill certain conditions (of course you say no).

 

Srila Prabhupada has simply authorized 11 devotees to begin with to act as

Ritviks, to give those who were approved under standard procedure, first

and/or second initiation on behalf of His Divine Grace. Other Ritviks were

to be added in the future as necessary.

 

 

> So if such a person accepts disciples, he is not disrespecting Srila

> Prabhupada's instruction and desire, especially if the disciple agreed to

> be a disciple of Srila Prabhupada's disciple.

 

Even if a person is willing to accept a disciple of Srila Prabhupada as

diksa guru, it is the business of the bonafide representative or Srila

Prabhupada, to point out that Srila Prabhupada has simply desired him/her to

act as a Ritvik and that he/she is only authorised to initiate on behalf of

Srila Prabhupada. Of course that does not exclude ones personal dealing with

the initiate as that of a Siksa guru and Siksa disciple, which is considered

equally if not more important than diksa....and similarly one is free to

accept any advanced vaisnava as his Siksa Guru(s). But Diksa Guru should be

one, and he should be a liberated Mahabhagavata, unlike what the GBC would

like us to believe.....Therefore Srila Prabhupada is that qualified Diksa

Guru for ISKCON for now and for so long ISKCON will exist.

 

 

> Now please prove that there is an instruction by Srila Prabhupada saying

> that (1) his disciple MUST (not MAY) initiate a devotees on behalf of

> Srila Prabhupada and that (2) Srila Prabhupada revoked the authorization

> to accept disciples and the guru (disciple of Srila Prabhupada) MUST NOT

> accept the devotee as his own disciple.

 

If the recommended person qualifies according to the institutional

qualifications for first initiation and/or second initiation as mentioned in

Srila Prabhupada's books, namely in CC, then one is in principle under

obligation to accept such a qualified and sincere person as disciple of

Srila Prabhupada. That is one of the key issues in the Ritvik system: the

mutual examination part is done on behalf of Srila Prabhupada by so many

different authorities, starting with the person who brings one to KC, the

new bhakta/bhaktin trainer, the TP, department head, Senior devotees giving

knowledge and guidance....and on the other side there is the sure bona fide

exalted position of Srila Prabhupada as eternal infallible spiritual

master...

Re point 2, see my reply in previous paragraph.

Again:

To claim what belongs to your guru is stealing. Srila Prabhupada 3 times

mentioned that devotees in the future to be initiated through the Ritvik

system are to be his initiated disciples.

 

 

> > So, the Ritvik system should exist.

>

> I do not want to comment on that. I have an opinion though, but that is

> insignificant.

 

Ok. It doesnt bother me.

 

 

>

> > Why are the IRM devotees then persecuted, banned, beaten up etcetera?

>

> No-one should be persecuted because of his belief. One can try to defeat

> him in a debate, but not physically.

 

Exactly

 

 

>

> > You have an explanation for that?

>

> No.

 

Iskcon GBC has to at least allow co-existence, as IRM position is in no way

proved inferior to their own theory, made up of assumptions...

 

 

> > > The six agents of sense gratification are the tongue, the genitals,

> > > the belly, anger, the mind and words. Anyone who has practiced

> > > controlling these six is permitted to make disciples all over the

> > > world. (Srila Prabhupada, NOD, chapter 7)

> >

> > Is it? I dont think so.

>

> What is missing in that statement that lets you think that it is not an

> authorization to accept disciples?

 

There should still be some SPECIFIC instruction.

 

Can one, without being a HK devotee, but still managing to control all the

six urges, or thinkig to be in control of them, whimsically proclaim

himself as guru and accept disciples and state that he belongs to a certain

sampradaya? Can one authorize oneself? No, Srila Prabhupada said: NO. One

has to be ordered by his guru....!!!

 

Thank you for corresponding with me. I am not that good in reasoning and

arguing. Discussing such controversial matters is strengtening our minds,

and I welcome that very much. Though posing as Ritvik, I am simply searching

out the Truth and Nothing But The Truth. That is why I am pleased to see

this subject come back to life....

 

yhs,

KPdd