Excerpt from Bhagavad Gita As It Is defeating ritvikism

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Dear Ramakanta Prabhu

 

PAMHO. AGTSP!

 

Firstly, I suspect this may have been an oversight on your part, but you

wrote to me in private and then replied to me in this public forum, but

without actually reproducing my whole message. Therefore, readers will only

have seen selections of my reply to you. Anyway, moving on to your points…

 

>"The ritvik followers misunderstood the July 9th letter."

 

>>It was the GBC that "misunderstood" the J9 letter.

 

>Who misunderstood it, those who had physical association with Srila

>Prabhupada and are directly initiated by him, or the others?

 

The July 9th letter clearly states that Srila Prabhupada had appointed thus

far eleven ritviks. It also clearly states three times that all disciples

would be initiated disciples of Srila Prabhupada. This is plain English and

is the meaning accepted by the ritviks.

 

The “misunderstanding” that the appointed ritviks were actually appointed as

diksa gurus clearly came from the 11 ritviks themselves, since they are the

ones named in the letter, and they are the ones who declared that they had

been appointed as diksa gurus.

 

Even today ISKCON gurus contradict each other over whether Srila Prabhupada

appointed ritviks or gurus in the July 9th letter. For example:

 

HG Ravindra Svarupa Prabhu: “Srila Prabhupada never said ‘here are the next

eleven acaryas, and they are authorised gurus for the movement’. He did not

do that.” (Video, San Diego Debate, 1990)

 

HH Jayadvaita Swami: “This zonal guru system, as it came to be called,

prevailed in ISKCON for about ten years, until its falseness became clear…

Satsvarupa dasa Goswami, editor in chief during those years, joins with me

in apologizing to our readers for BTG’s conformity to the “zonal guru”

error.” (‘An Apology’, Back to Godhead #25-01, 1991)

 

BUT

 

HH Sivarama Swami: “Almost immediately after Srila Prabhupada’s departure,

devotees he had requested to give DIKSA fell down. Of the ELEVEN HE NAMED,

only four have not fallen.” (‘Siksa outside ISKCON?’, 2002)

 

HH Hridayananda das Goswami (from the biography on his official website): “A

little before departing from this world on November of 1977, His Divine

Grace Srila Prabhupada asked Srila Acharyadeva, as well as ten other

prominent disciples, to accept the role of SPIRITUAL MASTERS AND INITIATE

DISCIPLES to give continuity to the disciplic succession starting with the

Supreme Lord, Krishna."

 

 

So clearly it is not the ritvik advocates who have “misunderstood” the

contents of the J9 letter.

 

>What has this to do with the question whether the ritvik system should be

>continued or not?

 

Obviously it has EVERYTHING to do with it. There is nothing in the J9

letter that states that the ritvik system should terminate. Yet it was

terminated.

 

>But if you still think that reading Srila Prabhupada's letters and books is

>sufficient to get the >required transcendental knowledge to understand

>initiation, then please answer my question: Is >for the initiation any

>action required by the guru?

 

Srila Prabhupada answers your question:

 

“This is the process of initiation. The disciple must admit that he will no

longer commit sinful activity namely illicit sex, meat-eating, gambling and

intoxication. He promises to execute the order of the spiritual master.

THEN, THE SPIRITUAL MASTER TAKES CARE OF HIM AND ELEVATES HIM TO SPIRITUAL

EMANCIPATION.” (C.c. Madhya, 24.256, purport)

 

The vast majority of Srila Prabhupada’s disciples never spoke with, or even

saw him, being initiated via the ritvik system; yet by adhering to their

initiation vows, Srila Prabhupada is taking care of them and elevating them

to spiritual emancipation.

 

In respect of your comment as to whether “Srila Prabhupada's letters and

books is sufficient to get the required transcendental knowledge to

understand initiation”, Srila Prabhupada also answers this point very

clearly:

 

“In MY BOOKS the philosophy of Krsna Consciousness is explained FULLY so if

there is anything you do not understand, then you simply have to read again

and again. BY READING DAILY THE KNOWLEDGE WILL BE REVEALED TO YOU and by

this process your spiritual life will develop.” (SP Letter to Brahmarupa

Dasa, 22/11/74)

 

“These books are not material knowledge. To a sincere student, ALL of the

contents of these BOOKS become revealed from within, even if he has not

thoroughly studied them all.” (SP Letter to Hamsadutta, 12/1/68)

 

“So there is nothing to be said new. WHATEVER I HAVE TO SPEAK, I HAVE SPOKEN

IN MY BOOKS. Now you try to understand it and continue your endeavour.

Whether I am present or not present it doesn’t matter.” (SP Arrival

Conversation, 17/5/77, Vrindavan)

 

“So utilise whatever time you find to make a thorough study of MY BOOKS.

Then ALL your questions will be answered.” (SP Letter to Upendra, 7/1/76)

 

Ys

Deepak

 

---

 

 

 

Dear Deepak Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP!

 

>Srila Prabhupada is making a GENERAL statement about how one behaves

>towards the Spiritual Master. Srila Prabhupada is also a spiritual

>master, therefore it also applies to him. Or are you saying

>that the above passage applies to all spiritual masters except Srila

>Prabhupada?

 

Please carefully read my comment.

 

>"The ritvik followers misunderstood the July 9th letter."

>

>It was the GBC that "misunderstood" the J9 letter.

 

Who misunderstood it, those who had physical association with Srila

Prabhupada and are directly initiated by him, or the others?

 

>They concoted the unauthorised zonal acarya system, whereby the 11 named

>ritviks suddenly became 'mahabhagavat diksa gurus'. Jayadvaita Swami

>wrote an apology for this fraudulent system in BTG a few years back in his

>capacity as editor-in-chief.

 

What has this to do with the question whether the ritvik system should be

continued or not?

 

>The ritvik advocates simply take the face meaning of the letter. Can you

>please tell me the EXACT words in the letter ritvik followers

>"`misunderstand", and HOW they "misunderstand" them?

 

Even if you completely understand every word, you cannot understand

initiation. See below.

 

>The letter was signed by Srila Prabhupada, therefore he must have fully

>agreed with it, therefore why does it matter WHO TYPED it? Where does

>Srila Prabhupada ever state your injunction

>that: "You cannot understand the system of initiation just by reading a

>letter?"

 

Krishna said that:

tad viddhi pranipatena pariprasnena sevaya

upadeksyanti te jnanam jnaninas tattva-darsinah

 

But if you still think that reading Srila Prabhupada's letters and books is

sufficient to get the required transcendental knowledge to understand

initiation, then please answer my question: Is for the initiation any action

required by the guru?

 

ys Ramakanta dasa

 

-

-----------------------

 

Dear Ramakanta Prabhu,

 

PAMHO. AGTSP!

 

I trust you had a nice Janmastami and Vyasa Puja celebration.

 

With regards the following quote:

 

“as long as the spiritual master is physically present, the disciple should

serve the physical body of the Spiritual Master, and when the Spiritual

Master is no longer physically existing, the disciple should serve the

instructions of the Spiritual Master." (S.B. 4.28.47, purport).

 

You comment:

“Srila Prabhupada wrote above statement in a book, that means it will Be

valid during the next 10,000 years. If he meant "While I am physically

present, you should serve my physical body", then he would not have written

that in a book but said it in a lecture or conversation to his disciples.”

 

Srila Prabhupada is making a GENERAL statement about how one behaves towards

the Spiritual Master. Srila Prabhupada is also a spiritual master,

therefore it also applies to him. Or are you saying

that the above passage applies to all spiritual masters except Srila

Prabhupada? You then say:

 

"The ritvik followers misunderstood the July 9th letter."

 

It was the GBC that "misunderstood" the J9 letter. They concoted the

unauthorised zonal acarya system, whereby the 11 named ritviks suddenly

became 'mahabhagavat diksa gurus'. Jayadvaita Swami wrote an apology for

this fraudulent system in BTG a few years back in his capacity as

editor-in-chief.

 

The ritvik advocates simply take the face meaning of the letter. Can you

please tell me the EXACT words in the letter ritvik followers

"‘misunderstand", and HOW they "misunderstand" them? You continue:

 

"If you ask any initiated disciple of Srila Prabhupada, he/she will confirm

that Srila Prabhupada did not intent that the ritvik system should be

continued after he left the planet."

 

This is not true. There are initiated disciples of Srila Prabhupada who

fully accept the continued application of the ritvik system.

 

‘You cannot understand initiation just by reading a letter (not even written

by Srila Prabhupada)"

 

The letter was signed by Srila Prabhupada, therefore he must have fully

agreed with it, therefore why does it matter WHO TYPED it? Where does Srila

Prabhupada ever state your injunction

that: "You cannot understand the system of initiation just by reading a

letter?" Why would Srila Prabhupada bother to send over 100 identical

letters to all his leaders if he knew no-one would understand it? Anyone who

reads English can understand it.

 

Ys,

Deepak

 

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[Guest guest]

Dear Deepak Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP!

 

> The “misunderstanding” that the appointed ritviks were actually appointed

> as diksa gurus clearly came from the 11 ritviks themselves, since they are

> the ones named in the letter, and they are the ones who declared that they

> had been appointed as diksa gurus.

 

You call it “misunderstanding”. I do not.

 

> Srila Prabhupada answers your question:

>

> “This is the process of initiation. The disciple must admit that he will

> no longer commit sinful activity namely illicit sex, meat-eating, gambling

> and intoxication. He promises to execute the order of the spiritual

> master. THEN, THE SPIRITUAL MASTER TAKES CARE OF HIM AND ELEVATES HIM TO

> SPIRITUAL EMANCIPATION.” (C.c. Madhya, 24.256, purport)

 

But on July 29 you wrote:

 

>In his signed letter of July 9th to all GBCs and Temple Presidents, Srila

>Prabhupada officially instituted the system of initiations to be followed

>within ISKCON. In this directive, we see that all the functions for

>accepting the initiate, giving the name and conducting the ceremony were

>delegated to Srila Prabhupada's representatives - the ritviks and Temple

>Presidents. Thus, Srila Prabhupada "did not have to do anything".

 

See, that is what I mean when I say that you cannot understand initiation

just by reading. You don't know if the diksa guru has to do anything or not.

 

> The vast majority of Srila Prabhupada’s disciples never spoke with, or

> even saw him, being initiated via the ritvik system;

 

Again you are trying to understand initiation by observing how Srila

Prabhupada did the initiations.

 

> In respect of your comment as to whether “Srila Prabhupada's letters and

> books is sufficient to get the required transcendental knowledge to

> understand initiation”, Srila Prabhupada also answers this point very

> clearly:

 

Nowhere in Srila Prabhupada's book it is described how to do the second

initiation. So not everything is in Srila Prabhupada's books.

 

ys Ramakanta dasa

[Guest guest]

Dear Ramakanta Prabhu,

 

PAMHO. AGTSP!

 

I wrote:

>>The "misunderstanding" that the appointed ritviks were actually appointed

>>as diksa gurus clearly came from the 11 ritviks themselves, since they are

>>the ones named in the letter, and they are the ones who declared that they

>>had been appointed as diksa gurus.

 

You replied:

>You call it "misunderstanding". I do not.

 

I used the term “misunderstanding” because that is the term you used in your

posting of 2nd September when you stated: “The ritvik followers

misunderstood the July 9th letter”.

 

I responded by saying that the ritvik followers accept exactly what the July

9th letter states (i.e. that Srila Prabhupada appointed ritviks to initiate

disciples on his behalf); but that the “misunderstanding” of the July 9th

letter came from the GBC/11 people named in the letter who claimed that the

letter appointed 11 gurus. Further, to illustrate my point that there is

still confusion among the ISKCON leadership as to whether ritviks or gurus

were appointed by Srila Prabhupada, I cited published statements from some

of our leaders which clearly contradicted each other on the contents of the

letter:

 

1) HG Ravindra Svarupa Prabhu (San Diego, 1990) and HH Jayadvaita Swami (BTG

1991) stating that Srila Prabhupada did NOT appoint 11 gurus.

 

2) HH Sivarama Swami (“Siksa outside ISKCON?”, 2002) and HH Hridayananda das

Goswami (official website, 2004) stating that Srila Prabhupada DID appoint

11 gurus.

 

What term would you use to describe these two contradictory positions?

 

I wrote:

>>Srila Prabhupada answers your question:

>>

>>"This is the process of initiation. The disciple must admit that he will

>>no longer commit sinful activity namely illicit sex, meat-eating, gambling

>>and intoxication. He promises to execute the order of the spiritual

>>master. THEN, THE SPIRITUAL MASTER TAKES CARE OF HIM AND ELEVATES HIM TO

>>SPIRITUAL EMANCIPATION." (C.c. Madhya, 24.256, purport)

 

You replied:

>But on July 29 you wrote:

 

(my statement):

>>In his signed letter of July 9th to all GBCs and Temple Presidents, Srila

>>Prabhupada officially instituted the system of initiations to be followed

>>within ISKCON. In this directive, we see that all the functions for

>>accepting the initiate, giving the name and conducting the ceremony were

>>delegated to Srila Prabhupada's representatives - the ritviks and Temple

>>Presidents. Thus, Srila Prabhupada "did not have to do anything". (end of

>>my statement)

 

>See, that is what I mean when I say that you cannot understand >initiation

>just by reading. You don't know if the diksa guru has to do anything >or

>not.

 

I think you have misunderstood me. There are two issues here regarding

whether “the diksa guru has to do anything or not”. Let us take each in

turn:

 

1) PRE-INITIATION CEREMONY

Here, as I stated in my posting of July 29 which you have quoted, all the

functions of conducting the initiation ceremony were delegated by Srila

Prabhupada to the ritviks and Temple Presidents. The Temple Presidents

would recommend initiation of candidates to the appropriate ritvik, who

would then give the candidate his spiritual name. The TP would then conduct

the fire ceremony. In the vast majority of cases (and we’re talking between

5000-10,000 disciples), Srila Prabhupada had no physical involvement in this

ceremony at all. And as I have stated many times previously, Srila

Prabhupada did not even see, speak to or otherwise have any physical contact

with these initiates. Yet they approached, inquired from and rendered

service to Srila Prabhupada. How did they do this? Just as is being done

now – through his books and tapes:

 

Devotee: Srila Prabhupada when you're not present with us, how is it

possible to receive instructions? For example in questions that may arise...

 

Srila Prabhupada: Well the questions are answ...ANSWERS ARE THERE IN MY

BOOKS.

(Morning Walk, Los Angeles, 13/5/73)

 

“Every one of you must regularly read our books at least twice, in the

morning and evening, and AUTOMATICALLY ALL QUESTIONS will be answered.”

(SPL to Randhira, 24/01/70)

 

“In my books the philosophy of Krsna Consciousness is explained fully so if

there is anything you do not understand, then you simply have to read again

and again. BY READING DAILY THE KNOWLEDGE WILL BE REVEALED TO YOU and by

this process your spiritual life will develop.” (SPL to Brahmarupa Dasa,

22/11/74)

 

2) POST-INITIATION CEREMONY

Once the candidate has started following the initiation vows, Srila

Prabhupada takes care of him/her, even without ever having met the disciple:

 

"THIS IS THE PROCESS OF INITIATION. The disciple must admit that he will no

longer commit sinful activity namely illicit sex, meat-eating, gambling and

intoxication. He promises to execute the order of the spiritual master.

THEN, THE SPIRITUAL MASTER TAKES CARE OF HIM AND ELEVATES HIM TO SPIRITUAL

EMANCIPATION." (C.c. Madhya, 24.256, purport)

 

“I shall remain your PERSONAL GUIDANCE, physically present OR NOT PHYSICALLY

PRESENT, as I am getting guidance from my Guru Maharaja.” (Room

Conversation, Vrindavan, 14/7/77)

 

Indian Lady: ... is that spiritual master still guiding after death?

Srila Prabhupada: YES, YES. Just like Krsna is guiding us, similarly

spiritual master will guide us.

(General lectures, 69/09/23)

 

I wrote:

>>The vast majority of Srila Prabhupada's disciples never spoke with, or

>>even saw him, being initiated via the ritvik system;

 

You replied:

>Again you are trying to understand initiation by observing how Srila

>Prabhupada did the initiations.

 

Srila Prabhupada is Acarya. Acarya means one who TEACHES BY EXAMPLE.

Furthermore, the meaning of initiation as a transcendental process is

described in several places in Srila Prabhupada’s books. Thus, both by

EXAMPLE and by PRECEPT, we can understand initiation from Srila Prabhupada.

 

You wrote:

>Nowhere in Srila Prabhupada's book it is described how to do the second

>initiation. So not everything is in Srila Prabhupada's books.

 

Details of certain ceremonies may not be in Srila Prabhupada’s books (just

as details of the GBC, BBT etc. are not in Srila Prabhupada’s books – but

many details are to be found in his letters, for example), but ALL the

principles of spiritual life that you need to go back to Godhead ARE in

Srila Prabhupada’s books:

 

“THERE IS NOTHING NEW TO BE SAID. WHATEVER I HAD TO SAY, I HAVE ALREADY SAID

IN MY BOOKS. Now you must try to understand it and continue with your

endeavours. Whether I am present or not does not matter.” (Vrindavan,

17/5/77)

 

Ys

Deepak

 

 

 

>"Ramakanta (das) HKS (PAMHO.NET SysOp) (Zurich - CH)"

><Ramakanta.HKS (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

>"Deepak Vohra" <dv108 (AT) hotmail (DOT) com>

>CC: "Initiations in ISKCON" <Initiations.in.ISKCON (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

>Excerpt from Bhagavad Gita As It Is defeating ritvikism

>Fri, 10 Sep 2004 22:29 +0200

>

>Dear Deepak Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP!

>

> > The "misunderstanding" that the appointed ritviks were actually

>appointed

> > as diksa gurus clearly came from the 11 ritviks themselves, since they

>are

> > the ones named in the letter, and they are the ones who declared that

>they

> > had been appointed as diksa gurus.

>

>You call it "misunderstanding". I do not.

>

> > Srila Prabhupada answers your question:

> >

> > "This is the process of initiation. The disciple must admit that he will

> > no longer commit sinful activity namely illicit sex, meat-eating,

>gambling

> > and intoxication. He promises to execute the order of the spiritual

> > master. THEN, THE SPIRITUAL MASTER TAKES CARE OF HIM AND ELEVATES HIM TO

> > SPIRITUAL EMANCIPATION." (C.c. Madhya, 24.256, purport)

>

>But on July 29 you wrote:

>

> >In his signed letter of July 9th to all GBCs and Temple Presidents, Srila

> >Prabhupada officially instituted the system of initiations to be followed

> >within ISKCON. In this directive, we see that all the functions for

> >accepting the initiate, giving the name and conducting the ceremony were

> >delegated to Srila Prabhupada's representatives - the ritviks and Temple

> >Presidents. Thus, Srila Prabhupada "did not have to do anything".

>

>See, that is what I mean when I say that you cannot understand initiation

>just by reading. You don't know if the diksa guru has to do anything or

>not.

>

> > The vast majority of Srila Prabhupada's disciples never spoke with, or

> > even saw him, being initiated via the ritvik system;

>

>Again you are trying to understand initiation by observing how Srila

>Prabhupada did the initiations.

>

> > In respect of your comment as to whether "Srila Prabhupada's letters and

> > books is sufficient to get the required transcendental knowledge to

> > understand initiation", Srila Prabhupada also answers this point very

> > clearly:

>

>Nowhere in Srila Prabhupada's book it is described how to do the second

>initiation. So not everything is in Srila Prabhupada's books.

>

>ys Ramakanta dasa

>

>-----------------------

>To from this mailing list, send an email to:

>Initiations.in.ISKCON-Owner (AT) pamho (DOT) net

 

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