Excerpt from Bhagavad Gita As It Is defeating ritvikism

[Guest guest]

Dear Deepak Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP!

 

> "Due to the necessity of these activities, WE do not immediately initiate

> disciples in the International Society for Krishna Consciousness" (Cc,

> Madhya, 15:108, purport).

 

"We do not initiate" does not mean "we initiate". Isn't it?

 

ys Ramakanta dasa

[Guest guest]

Dear Ramakanta Prabhu

 

PAMHO. AGTSP!

 

>"We do not initiate" does not mean "we initiate". Isn't it?

 

Please read the full CONTEXT of the quotation which I have produced a few

times now:

 

"Due to the necessity of these activities, WE do not IMMEDIATELY initiate

disciples in the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. For six

months, a candidate for initiation must first attend arati and classes in

the sastras, practice the regulative principles and associate with other

devotees. WHEN one is actually advanced in the purascarya-vidhi, he is

recommended by the local temple president for initiation. It is not that

anyone can be suddenly initiated without meeting the requirements. When one

is further advanced by chanting the Hare Krsna mantra sixteen rounds daily,

following the regulative principles and attending classes, he receives the

sacred thread (brahminical recognition) after the second six months."

(Caitanya-caritamrta, Madhya-lila 15:108, purport)

 

This is the system of initiation described in Srila Prabhupada’s books. Who

is the “WE” referring to in “we do not immediately initiate disciples in the

International Society for Krishna Consciousness”? This is answered further

on in the same section of the Cc:

 

"In our Krsna consciousness movement, the requirement is that one must be

prepared to give up the four pillars of sinful life-illicit sex,

meat-eating, intoxication and gambling. In Western countries especially, WE

first observe whether a potential disciple is prepared to follow the

regulative principles. Then he is given the name of a Vaisnava servant and

initiated to chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra, at least sixteen rounds

daily. In this way the disciple renders devotional service under the

guidance of THE SPIRITUAL MASTER OR HIS REPRESENTATIVE for at least six

months to a year. He is then recommended for a second initiation, during

which a sacred thread is offered and the disciple is accepted as a bona fide

brahmana." (Caitanya-caritamrta, Madhya-lila 24:330, purport)

 

So the “WE” refers to Srila Prabhupada and his representatives. This is how

the system of initiations was conducted when the books were written. Srila

Prabhupada was the spiritual master, and generally it was his

representatives (TPs) rather than SP himself who observed the prospective

initiate and recommended him for initiation to the ritvik. As long as the

candidate “met the requirements” outlined by SP above, he was accepted as an

initiated disciple of SP.

 

So, once again, in answer to your point:

 

“You provided a lot of quotes, but in none of them Srila Prabhupada said "I

initiate" or "we initiate” -

 

Srila Prabhupada states:

 

"Due to the necessity of these activities, WE do not *immediately* initiate

disciples in the International Society for Krishna Consciousness…” (Cc,

Madhya-lila 15:108, purport – read the whole context above)

 

"I AM THE INITIATOR GURU, and you should be the instructor …” (Srila

Prabhupada Letter to Madhudvisa, 4/8/75)

 

"I AM the spiritual master of this institution, and ALL the members of the

Society, they're supposed to be MY disciples... and they are INITIATED BY ME

spiritually." (March 12, 1968, San Francisco)

 

I don’t think I can make it any clearer than by quoting what SP says…“We [do

not immediately] initiate” (i.e. SP and his representatives); “I am the

initiator guru”; “I am the spiritual master…all the members of the

Society…are initiated by me.”

 

Please give me some time now to respond to Mahaprabhu Caitanya’s questions,

and then perhaps we can continue once I have done that? Thank you.

 

Ys

Deepak

 

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[Guest guest]

Dear Mahaprabhu Caitanya Prabhu

 

PAMHO. AGTSP!

 

I think it would be better to deal with just ONE point at a time since you

claim that I have not answered your question when, as anyone following this

can see, I have answered ALL your questions, and then in some detail. You

may not AGREE with me, but then you should say where I have gone wrong. No

point in just pretending I have not answered you, when I clearly have. To

keep it simple, please just answer "YES" or "NO" to the following question

which relates to your doubt: "How can SP reject me in this current system?"

 

Question: Do you accept that on July 9th 1977 Srila Prabhupada established a

system of initiation for ISKCON in which he delegated the job of "rejecting"

disciples to Temple Presidents and ritviks? Just answer "YES" or "NO",

please.

 

If you answer "NO", then it simply means you have not read the July 9th

directive.

 

If you answer "YES", then clearly your doubt is irrelevant since you are

questioning the very system Srila Prabhupada himself established, in which

he did not personally "reject" anyone, but left that job ENTIRELY to his

representatives. So which is it, "YES" or "NO"? Thank you.

 

Your servant,

Deepak

 

 

>"K.S. Mahesh" <K.S.Mahesh (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

>"Deepak Vohra" <dv108 (AT) hotmail (DOT) com>, "Ramakanta (das) HKS (PAMHO.NET

>SysOp) (Zurich - CH)" <Ramakanta.HKS (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

>RE: Excerpt from Bhagavad Gita As It Is defeating ritvikism

>Fri, 17 Sep 2004 16:37 +0200

>

>Dear Deepak Prabhuji

>Please Accept My Humble Obeisances

>All Glories To Guru Maharaj

>All Glories To Srila Prabhupad

>Jai Panchatatva

>Jai Gaur Nitai

>Jai Krishna Balram

>Jai Radha Madhav

>

>In all humility I would like to state that my question is not yet

>answered..

>

>How can I know is Srila Prabhupad has accepted me?

>How can SP reject me in this current system?

>How can I be sure that the name I am given is the one which SP would have

>liked me to have?

>How can I if I were uneducated and cannot read manage to read his books?

>How can I resolve a conflict of opinion if one of his ritvik siksha gurus

>and i disagree? I will always want to hear from him directly since he is

>the

>ultimate authority.

>Since the general trend has been one of parampara...why shld SP break it

>all

>of a sudden....is it that unfortunately he found that for the next 10000

>years there will be none qualified?

>

>will not the people who get initiated by SP godbrothers ever make progress?

>

>Siksha guru is also very important in my opinion and his decision and

>orders

>are fairly binding? then practically what is the difference???

>

>

>my chief questions still are

>

>How can SP reject me in this current system?

>

>Is it that SP who is so powerful and a great acharya is forced by this

>system to accept all that any representative "ritvik" presents to his lotus

>feet?

>

>Isnt it that the Guru has to take all the karma of the disciple...then are

>we all going to pass on all karma to SP and not take the burden of some

>disciples atleast?

>

>Those who have made vows and got initiated by Gurus..and from Gurus in good

>standing at that...is it right for them to reject them..specially when they

>are part of the original 11 whom SP selected...

>

>I beg forgiveness for any offences to anyone..it is unintented and in the

>spirit of constructive discussion

>

>Your insignificant servant

>

>Mahaprabhu Caitanya das

>

>requests your blessings to follow the instructions of Sri Krishna Caitanya

>Mahaprabhu

>

>trnad api sunicena taror api sahishnuna

>amanina manadena kirtaniya sada harih

>

>Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare

>Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare

>

>Please check the link below to see photos of recent events in Nigeria.

>

>mahaprabhucaitanyadas

 

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