Excerpt from Bhagavad Gita As It Is defeating ritvikism

[Guest guest]

Dear Deepak Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP!

 

> What term would you use to describe these two contradictory positions?

 

If there are contradictory positions, then there are misunderstandings.

The ritvik position is contradictory to the other positions, so there must

be misunderstandings. Now if one of these different groups say that they

have understood it correctly and only they, what would you call that?

 

> 2) POST-INITIATION CEREMONY

> Once the candidate has started following the initiation vows, Srila

> Prabhupada takes care of him/her, even without ever having met the

> disciple:

 

When does the "post-initiation ceremony" start? At time of the formal

initiation? How is Srila Prabhupada informed that he has initiated a new

disciple and should kindly 'take care of him and elevate him to spiritual

emancipation'? Is Srila Prabhupada still required?

 

> You replied:

> >Again you are trying to understand initiation by observing how Srila

> >Prabhupada did the initiations.

>

> Srila Prabhupada is Acarya. Acarya means one who TEACHES BY EXAMPLE.

 

One has observed that Srila Prabhupada sometimes sat down, wrapped a thread

around his finger and remained quiet for few minutes. Now please tell me

what should I learn from this example.

 

> Furthermore, the meaning of initiation as a transcendental process is

> described in several places in Srila Prabhupada’s books. Thus, both by

> EXAMPLE and by PRECEPT, we can understand initiation from Srila

> Prabhupada.

 

Okay. Where it the precept that for the initiation (not instruction) the

guru does not have to do anything and does not have to be present?

 

ys Ramakanta dasa

[Guest guest]

Dear Ramakanta Prabhu

 

PAMHO. AGTSP!

 

You have raised alot of questions for me to answer. As with Mahaprabhu

Caitanya Prabhu, may I suggest that we proceed one point at a time, and deal

with each one to its conclusion? I have drafted a reply covering all your

questions, but it is far too long for this forum, and I think it is best

that we deal with the issues in easily digestible chunks. Below I address

one of the issues you raised. I will then leave it up to you to decide

which of your points we should discuss next.

 

I hope this arrangement is to your satisfaction. My first response is

below.

 

Ys

Deepak

 

You wrote:

 

>The ritvik position is contradictory to the other positions, so there must

>be misunderstandings. Now if one of these different groups say that they

>have understood it correctly and only they, what would you call that?

 

This was in response to my pointing out the contradictory positions taken by

some of ISKCON’s gurus regarding their alleged appointment by Srila

Prabhupada. To recap in summary:

 

1) HG Ravindra Svarupa Prabhu (San Diego video speech, 1990) and HH

Jayadvaita Swami (BTG editorial 1991) both stated that SP did NOT appoint 11

gurus.

 

2) HH Sivarama Swami (‘Siksa Outside ISKCON?, 2002) and HH Hridayananda dasa

Goswami (his official website biography, 2004) both stated that SP DID

appoint 11 gurus.

 

The ritvik position, on the other hand, has never changed. It has always

said that Srila Prabhupada is the initiating spiritual master in ISKCON.

 

Furthermore, as I previously mentioned, the GBC has now publicly withdrawn

its “final siddhanta” paper on gurus and initiations (see GBC Resolutions

2004), stating that it “stretches the truth” and contains “lies”.

 

So at least people now know where each party stands:

 

1) The current GBC party which has contradicted itself, withdrawn its main

philosophical paper and admitted publishing “lies” with regards gurus and

initiations in ISKCON.

 

2) The ritvik party which has only maintained one philosophical position,

namely that Srila Prabhupada continues to be the diksa guru in ISKCON.

 

So the ritviks contradict the current GBC party, and the current GBC party

contradicts itself.

 

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[Guest guest]

Dear Ramakanta Prabhu

 

PAMHO. AGTSP!

 

>So my next question to test you if you really understood it is:

 

>When does the "post-initiation ceremony" start? At time of the formal

>initiation?

 

ONCE the disciple vows to follow the orders of the spiritual master, THEN he

is taken care of by the spiritual master:

 

”This is the process of initiation. The disciple must vow that he will no

longer commit sinful activity—namely illicit sex, meat-eating, gambling and

intoxication. He promises to execute the order of the spiritual master. THEN

the spiritual master takes care of him and elevates him to spiritual

emancipation.” (Cc Madhya 24.257, purport)

 

So when the vows are taken at the formal initiation ceremony, the spiritual

master then agrees to take care of the disciple. Of course, we also know

that the ceremony is not always essential, more a formality, and that the

ESSENTIAL point is to follow the orders of the diksa guru. THEN the guru

takes care of the disciple:

 

“You’ll be initiated. Any one of you — WHEN you agree to follow the

regulative principles and you are recommended by our men, THEN you can also

be initiated. Initiation is a formality. First of all you have to decide

whether you will abide by the rules and regulations and become Krsna

conscious. That is your consideration. You have to decide for yourself

whether you are going to take this Krsna consciousness seriously. That is

your decision. Initiation is a formality. If you are serious, that is real

initiation. If you have understood this Krsna philosophy and if you have

decided that you will take Krsna consciousness seriously and preach the

philosophy to others, that is your initiation. My touch is simply a

formality. It is your determination. That is initiation.” (Srila Prabhupada,

BTG #49)

 

”disciplic succession does not always mean that one has to be initiated

officially. Disciplic succession means to accept the disciplic conclusion.”

(SPL Dinesh, 31 October 1969)

 

“from 1922 to 1933 practically I was not initiated, but I got the impression

of preaching Caitanya Mahaprabhu's cult. That I was thinking. And THAT was

the initiation by my Guru Maharaja. Then officially I was initiated in 1933”

(SP Lecture, December 10, 1976)

 

“initiation or no initiation, first thing is knowledge...knowledge.

Initiation is formality. Just like you go to a school for knowledge, and

admission is formality. That is not very important thing.” (SP interview,

October 16, 1976)

 

 

>How is Srila Prabhupada informed that he has initiated a new disciple and

>should kindly 'take care of him and elevate him to spiritual emancipation'?

>Is Srila Prabhupada still required?

 

In the July 9th letter, Srila Prabhupada delegated the responsibility of

accepting new disciples to the ritviks, who would then enter the names into

Srila Prabhupada’s “Initiated Disciples” book. Even whilst Srila Prabhupada

was physically present, he was not informed of the majority of his many

thousands of disciples who were initiated. He never met most of them – that

was the whole point of delegating responsibility to the ritviks.

 

You ask whether Srila Prabhupada “is still required” for this purpose, and

also for taking care of and spiritually elevating his disciples. Well,

acceptance and rejection of disciples was left up to the ritviks, as I’ve

said. And is not SP taking care of and elevating his disciples NOW, in 2004

(at least those who are following strictly)? Is he a PHYSICAL or a

SPIRITUAL master?

 

“I shall remain your personal guidance, physically present or not

physically, as I am getting personal guidance from my Guru Maharaja.” (SP

conversation, July 14, 1977)

 

“You have asked if it is true that the Spiritual Master remains in the

material universe until all of His disciples are transferred to the

Spiritual Sky. The answer is yes, this is the rule. Therefore, every student

should be very much careful not to commit any offense which will be

detrimental to this promotion to the Spiritual Kingdom, and thereby the

Spiritual Master has to incarnate again to deliver him. This sort of

mentality will be a kind of offense to the Spiritual Master. Out of the ten

kinds of offenses, the number one offense is to disobey the orders of the

Spiritual Master. The instructions given to the disciple by the Spiritual

Master at the time of initiation should be strictly followed. That will make

one advance to the spiritual path. But if one deliberately defies such

instructions, then his advancement is hampered from the very beginning. This

defying means to disconnect the relationship with the Spiritual Master. And

anyone who defies and therefore disconnects the relationship with the

Spiritual Master can hardly expect the assistance of the Spiritual Master

life after life. I hope this will clear up this question sufficiently for

you.” (SPL Jayapataka, 11 July, 1969)

 

Ys

Deepak

 

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