Excerpt from Bhagavad Gita As It Is defeating ritvikism

[Guest guest]

Dear Deepak Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP!

 

The statements by Srila Prabhupada that you quoted show me that Srila

Prabhupada understands initiation. I can understand the meaning of his

statements very clearly, but your explanations have simply agitated My mind.

 

ys Ramakanta dasa

[Guest guest]

Dear Ramakanta Prabhu

 

PAMHO. AGTSP!

 

>The statements by Srila Prabhupada that you quoted show me that Srila

>Prabhupada understands initiation. I can understand the meaning of his

>statements very clearly, but your explanations have simply agitated My

>mind.

 

Sorry if you felt my explanations "agitated" your mind. You asked me for

an explanation, and I tried to answer as best I could with supporting

evidence from Srila Prabhupada's statements.

 

What it boils down to is this:

 

1) Diksa is defined by Srila Prabhupada thus:

 

" Diksa is the process by which one can awaken his transcendental knowledge

and vanquish all reactions caused by sinful activity. A person expert in the

study of the revealed scriptures knows this process as diksa." (C.c.

Madhya, 15.108, purport)

 

2) In this definition of diksa, there is no mention of the initiating guru

needing to be physically present in order to deliver diksa. Neither does it

state that diksa is dependent on an official ceremony. Rather, it states

that diksa is a PROCESS ("the process by which one can awaken his

transcendental knowledge and vanquish all reactions caused by sinful

activity"). The person who delivers this process is therefore the diksa

guru.

 

3) So now you have to decide whether Srila Prabhupada continues to give

diksa today, as he did when he was physically present. If you decide that

he does NOT give diksa any more, that means that NO ONE today is having

their "transcendental knowledge awakened" and their "sinful reactions

vanquished" by Srila Prabhupada. That in turn means that no one is now

Srila Prabhupada's diksa disciple, and he is no longer the diksa guru of

anyone.

 

4) If you arrive at this conclusion, then there is no need for anyone to

follow Srila Prabhupada's books at all, since he is no longer imparting

transcendental knowledge or vanquishing sins (the definition of diksa).

Consequently, there is no longer any need to sing the Guru-puja prayer every

morning to Srila Prabhupada, even though this prayer clearly states that he

is giving diksa:

 

chakhu-dan dilo jei, janme janme prabhu sei

DIVYA-JNANA hride prokashito

 

(Translation: "He opens my darkened eyes and fills my heart with

transcendental knowledge..." )

 

Explanation by Srila Prabhupada:

 

"That very word initiation suggests, "This is the beginning." Diksa, diksa.

Di... Divya. There are two words, DIVYA-JNANA. Divya-jnana means

transcendental, spiritual knowledge. So divya is di, and jnanam, ksapayati,

explaining, that is ksa, di-ksa. This is called DIKSA, diksa, the

combination. So diksa means the initiation to begin transcendental

activities. That is called INITIATION." (S.B. lecture, February 22, 1973)

 

I do not wish to "agitate" your mind so maybe we should leave it there.

Hare Krsna.

 

Ys

Deepak

 

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[Guest guest]

Dear Ramakanta Prabhu

 

PAMHO. AGTSP!

 

>The statements by Srila Prabhupada that you quoted show me that Srila

>Prabhupada understands initiation. I can understand the meaning of his

>statements very clearly, but your explanations have simply agitated My

>mind.

 

 

Sorry if you felt my explanations "agitated" your mind. You asked me for

an explanation, and I tried to answer as best I could with supporting

evidence from Srila Prabhupada's statements.

 

What it boils down to is this:

 

1) Diksa is defined by Srila Prabhupada thus:

 

" Diksa is the process by which one can awaken his transcendental knowledge

and vanquish all reactions caused by sinful activity. A person expert in the

study of the revealed scriptures knows this process as diksa." (C.c.

Madhya, 15.108, purport)

 

2) In this definition of diksa, there is no mention of the initiating guru

needing to be physically present in order to deliver diksa. Neither does it

state that diksa is dependent on an official ceremony. Rather, it states

that diksa is a PROCESS ("the process by which one can awaken his

transcendental knowledge and vanquish all reactions caused by sinful

activity"). The person who delivers this process is therefore the diksa

guru.

 

3) So now you have to decide whether Srila Prabhupada continues to give

diksa today, as he did when he was physically present. If you decide that

he does NOT give diksa any more, that means that NO ONE today is having

their "transcendental knowledge awakened" and their "sinful reactions

vanquished" by Srila Prabhupada. That in turn means that no one is now

Srila Prabhupada's diksa disciple, and he is no longer the diksa guru of

anyone.

 

4) If you arrive at this conclusion, then there is no need for anyone to

follow Srila Prabhupada's books at all, since he is no longer imparting

transcendental knowledge or vanquishing sins (the definition of diksa).

Consequently, there is no longer any need to sing the Guru-puja prayer every

morning to Srila Prabhupada, even though this prayer clearly states that he

is giving diksa:

 

chakhu-dan dilo jei, janme janme prabhu sei

DIVYA-JNANA hride prokashito

 

(Translation: "He opens my darkened eyes and fills my heart with

transcendental knowledge..." )

 

Explanation by Srila Prabhupada:

 

"That very word initiation suggests, "This is the beginning." Diksa, diksa.

Di... Divya. There are two words, DIVYA-JNANA. Divya-jnana means

transcendental, spiritual knowledge. So divya is di, and jnanam, ksapayati,

explaining, that is ksa, di-ksa. This is called DIKSA, diksa, the

combination. So diksa means the initiation to begin transcendental

activities. That is called INITIATION." (S.B. lecture, February 22, 1973)

 

I do not wish to "agitate" your mind so maybe we should leave it there.

Hare Krsna.

 

Ys

Deepak

 

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[Guest guest]

Dear Ramakanta Prabhu

 

PAMHO. AGTSP!

 

Yes, I didn't pick up your reference to the Cc quote!

 

>May I suggest you read the whole chapter and see that a very intelligent

>person (Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya, much more intelligent than any of us)

>completely misunderstood the writings of Srila Vyasadeva, a pure vaishnava

>and literary incarnation of Krishna.

 

Yes, I would be delighted to read the whole chapter again. It seems that

even within our ISKCON society very intelligent devotees also completely

misunderstood, or even deliberately misapplied, the writings of Srila

Prabhupada, a pure vaishnava and empowered representative of Krishna:

 

“By the influence of maya, illusion, a different idea soon evolved—that

Srila Prabhupada had appointed eleven “pure devotees” to serve as the only

gurus after him…This zonal guru system, as it came to be called, prevailed

in ISKCON for about ten years, until its falseness became clear… In 1986,

ISKCON’s Governing Body Commission formally dismantled the system.

Satsvarupa dasa Goswami, editor in chief during those years, joins with me

in apologizing to our readers for BTG’s conformity to the “zonal guru”

error. In particular, we express our heartfelt apologies for contributing to

the hurts and wrongs devotees endured when ISKCON diverged from Srila

Prabhupada’s instructions.” (HH Jayadvaita Swami, ‘An Apology’, Back to

Godhead #25-01, 1991)

 

"The paper 'On My Order-Understood' contains assumptions and assertions

that, in numerous places, do not match the available evidence from the

statements of Srila Prabhupada" (GBC Resolutions 2004, 409. Continuing the

Disciplic Succession)

 

[One GBC spokesperson more candidly described the above-mentioned GBC paper

as containing "lies"].

 

Ys,

Deepak

 

 

>"Ramakanta (das) HKS (PAMHO.NET SysOp) (Zurich - CH)"

><Ramakanta.HKS (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

>"Initiations in ISKCON" <Initiations.in.ISKCON (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

>Excerpt from Bhagavad Gita As It Is defeating ritvikism

>Sun, 26 Sep 2004 09:41 +0200

>

>Dear Deepak Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP!

>

> > Sorry if you felt my explanations "agitated" your mind.

>

>I wrote, "I can understand the meaning of his statements very clearly, but

>your explanations have simply agitated My mind."

>

>In case you did not recognize it. It is CC Madhya 6.130, slighly modified.

>

> > You asked me for an explanation, and I tried to answer as best I could

> > with supporting evidence from Srila Prabhupada's statements.

>

>Let CC Madhya 6.81-87 be my answer.

>

>May I suggest you read the whole chapter and see that a very intelligent

>person (Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya, much more intelligent than any of us)

>completely misunderstood the writings of Srila Vyasadeva, a pure vaishnava

>and literary incarnation of Krishna.

>

>ys Ramakanta dasa

>

>-----------------------

>To from this mailing list, send an email to:

>Initiations.in.ISKCON-Owner (AT) pamho (DOT) net

 

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[Guest guest]

Dear Deepak Prabhuji

Please Accept My Humble Obeisances

All Glories To Guru Maharaj

All Glories To Srila Prabhupad

Jai Panchatatva

Jai Gaur Nitai

Jai Krishna Balram

Jai Radha Madhav

 

the answer is YES. the letter clearly shows that SP asked 11 representatives

to accept or reject disciples. this was evident from my previous mail also

where i asked some other doubts...but this does not prove anything else.

 

and i was in blore when the ritvik thing was flaring up in

98-99..unfortunately i found that some people were questioning the

credibility of people whom SP appointed....is this not questioning SP's

judgement...my earlier questions still remain unanswered...

 

at that time in bangalore..most devotees there were shown the Final Order

also..and i have also seen it then...in 1998...

 

kindly take this discussion further.i have added some more worthy devotees

that came to mind immediately, who can add more light in this matter, since

i am an insignificant devotee with little knowledge and capabilities.

 

i am sorry i have added all of the exalted devotees without their

consent...and i am sorry i did not include many more....but i hope they may

help me resolve this issue with deepak prabhu...obviously this debate on

ritvikism has been on for quite some years..and i am hoping that by the

intervention of all exalted devotees, we would be able to put such problems

behind us......and work towards the development of ISKCON...so that people

like me can get more benefit by the combined mercy of one and all..

 

if ramakanta prabhuji so desires he should add more devotees to participate

in this discussion.

 

i am adding a verse from the Bhagavad Gita as it is at the bottom of this

message..this can also be useful for the discussion.

 

 

 

Your insignificant servant

 

Mahaprabhu Caitanya das

 

requests your blessings to follow the instructions of Sri Krishna Caitanya

Mahaprabhu

 

trnad api sunicena taror api sahishnuna

amanina manadena kirtaniya sada harih

 

Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare

Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare

 

Please check the link below to see photos of recent events in Nigeria.

 

mahaprabhucaitanyadas

 

 

Dear Mahaprabhu Caitanya Prabhuji

 

PAMHO. AGTSP!

 

I had asked a question to which you only needed to reply "YES" or "NO".

Instead of answering, you have hopped to asking many more questions; good

questions, but questions which were nevertheless answered way back in 1996

in "The Final Order" paper. We need to deal with just ONE point at a time,

so may I suggest that you first:

 

1) Answer my previous question; just "YES" or "NO" will be fine.

 

2) I will then follow up on your reply, and once it is cleared up:

 

3) I shall then direct you to the pages of "The Final Order" on which

the answers to your new questions appear.

 

 

Unless we follow this procedure we will simply be swamped under a mass of

text, and nothing shall ever be resolved. Hope that's ok Prabhu.

 

 

Your servant

Deepak

 

 

>"K.S. Mahesh" <K.S.Mahesh (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

>"Deepak Vohra" <dv108 (AT) hotmail (DOT) com>

>CC: "Initiations in ISKCON" <Initiations.in.ISKCON (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

>RE: Excerpt from Bhagavad Gita As It Is defeating ritvikism

>Mon, 20 Sep 2004 22:16 +0200

>

>Dear Deepak Prabhuji

>Please Accept My Humble Obeisances

>All Glories To Guru Maharaj

>All Glories To Srila Prabhupad

>Jai Panchatatva

>Jai Gaur Nitai

>Jai Krishna Balram

>Jai Radha Madhav

>

>Thanks a lot for the letter.

>It shows that SP "trusted" 11 people to initiate on his behalf.

>1. it is silent on how new people can be added to the representatives list

>2. it is silent on how long this shld continue

>3. how does this go along with certain tapes where SP mentions

>granddisciples...and also mentions that it is not ettiquete for someone to

>initiate directly when his Guru is present...

>if i am not wrong there was an instance of someone like this and SP made it

>amply clear to him that he shld bring all his followers to him ..

>

>please throw more light on this...

>it is said that SP is still living...i wld extrapolate that Srila

>Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati and others are living too..

>and at many places he mentions that actually all his disciples are to

>follow

>him only..and not another ..even if they think he has left something

>unexplained...in this context he repeated numerous times..that everything

>necessary is in his books..

>

>he said this many years earlier also..when he had not written many

>books..he

>said that the books he had written were sufficient...and one can follow

>them

>perfectly and go back Home..

>

>dont u find that his statements were with reference to a context..

>

>also even the disciple who was making his own followers even when SP was

>present was sensitively handled by him...not very rashly...but mercifully..

>

>if i am not wrong...in the case of Madhvacharya...or ramanujacharya..there

>were instances of them having followers...even when there guru was alive..

>

>can someone confirm this?? i am not so sure though.

>

>

>Your insignificant servant

>

>Mahaprabhu Caitanya das

>

>requests your blessings to follow the instructions of Sri Krishna Caitanya

>Mahaprabhu

>

>trnad api sunicena taror api sahishnuna

>amanina manadena kirtaniya sada harih

>

>Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare

>Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare

>

>Please check the link below to see photos of recent events in Nigeria.

>

>mahaprabhucaitanyadas

>

>-----------------------

>To from this mailing list, send an email to:

>Initiations.in.ISKCON-Owner (AT) pamho (DOT) net

 

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TEXT 34

 

tad viddhi pranipatena

pariprasnena sevaya

upadeksyanti te jnanam

jnaninas tattva-darsinah

 

SYNONYMS

 

tat--that knowledge of different sacrifices; viddhi--try to understand;

pranipatena--by approaching a spiritual master; pariprasnena--by submissive

inquiries; sevaya--by the rendering of service; upadeksyanti--initiate;

te--unto you; jnanam--knowledge; jnaninah--the self-realized; tattva--truth;

darsinah--the seers.

 

TRANSLATION

 

Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from

him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized soul can

impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth.

 

PURPORT

 

The path of spiritual realization is undoubtedly difficult. The Lord

therefore advises us to approach a bona fide spiritual master in the line of

disciplic succession from the Lord Himself. No one can be a bona fide

spiritual master without following this principle of disciplic succession.

The Lord is the original spiritual master, and a person in the disciplic

succession can convey the message of the Lord as it is to his disciple. No

one can be spiritually realized by manufacturing his own process, as is the

fashion of the foolish pretenders. The Bhagavatam (6.3.19) says, dharmam tu

saksad bhagavat-pranitam--the path of religion is directly enunciated by the

Lord. Therefore, mental speculation or dry arguments cannot help one

progress in spiritual life. One has to approach a bona fide spiritual master

to receive the knowledge. Such a spiritual master should be accepted in full

surrender, and one should serve the spiritual master like a menial servant,

without false prestige. Satisfaction of the self-realized spiritual master

is the secret of advancement in spiritual life. Inquiries and submission

constitute the proper combination for spiritual understanding. Unless there

is submission and service, inquiries from the learned spiritual master will

not be effective. One must be able to pass the test of the spiritual master,

and when he sees the genuine desire of the disciple, he automatically

blesses the disciple with genuine spiritual understanding. In this verse,

both blind following and absurd inquiries are condemned. One should not only

hear submissively from the spiritual master, but one must also get a clear

understanding from him, in submission and service and inquiries. A bona fide

spiritual master is by nature very kind toward the disciple. Therefore when

the student is submissive and is always ready to render service, the

reciprocation of knowledge and inquiries becomes perfect.