Excerpt from Bhagavad Gita As It Is defeating ritvikism

[Guest guest]

Dear Deepak Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP!

 

You wrote that others have misunderstood the July 9th letter. It looks like

you are evading my challenge. Please for the time being leave aside the

question whether the GBC has correctly understood it or not. (As I know they

never said that the ritvik system is to be continued after Srila Prabhupade

left us. So in this regards their position was consistent).

 

My position is that you (the ritvik followers or Deepak Vohra) have

misunderstood it because one cannot understand initiation just by reading.

Sarvabhaume Bhattacarya could not see the personality of Krishna just by

studying the vedic literature. Similarly, initiation is something personal,

and therefore can only be learned from a person, not from a book.

 

ys Ramakanta dasa

[Guest guest]

Dear Deepak Prabhuji

Please Accept My Humble Obeisances

All Glories To Guru Maharaj

All Glories To Srila Prabhupad

Jai Panchatatva

Jai Gaur Nitai

Jai Krishna Balram

Jai Radha Madhav

 

thanks a lot for your reply. i will answer it asap.

in your letter you mentioned that you were engaged in a full time

job...where do you work...please tell all of us some more about you..since

this discussion has been on for sometime now..and is expected to take

sometime..let me and others have the pleasure of knowing you more

intimately..what do you do..where are u currently..your family..any other

details that you deem fit to share with us..

 

i was doing some small research and i found that in one instance SP rejected

a second initiation...when it was recommended by a TP..

 

his handing over of this important role of selection and rejection to someof

his disciples is an important turning point.....

 

you said"This means that your objection to the system - "but how can Srila

Prabhupada reject disciples" - is seen to be irrelevant, since Srila

Prabhupada set up a system in which he delegated the activity of accepting

and rejecting disciples to Temple Presidents and ritviks."

 

i concede that my point was irrelevant..i thank you for educating me on

this.....however your point that TP and ritviks were handed responsibility

to accept and reject..is confusing..the letter mentions only the 11

people..does it not?

 

please continue the discussion in the direction you are taking it....

 

 

Your insignificant servant

 

Mahaprabhu Caitanya das

 

requests your blessings to follow the instructions of Sri Krishna Caitanya

Mahaprabhu

 

trnad api sunicena taror api sahishnuna

amanina manadena kirtaniya sada harih

 

Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare

Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare

 

Please check the link below to see photos of recent events in Nigeria.

 

mahaprabhucaitanyadas

[Guest guest]

Dear Prabhuji

Please Accept My Humble Obeisances

All Glories To Guru Maharaj

All Glories To Srila Prabhupad

Jai Panchatatva

Jai Gaur Nitai

Jai Krishna Balram

Jai Radha Madhav

 

Please forgive me for the delay in the reply..i was absorbed in a few

things....

 

i hope Krishna Priya Mataji is recovering well from her illness...

 

 

It is commendable that you are a good professional in the legal

field....hence your arguements are quite nice...however my humble submission

prabhuji is that spiritual life is more of experiential learning and

realisation and less of arguementative arrival at conclusions.....this was

proven by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu Himself...

 

as followers of Abhay Caranaravinda Bhaktivedanta Srila Prabhupada...we need

not be afraid of physical injury...we shld be Nirbhay...afterall preaching

is not an easy task...so please dont worry about being harmed by other

people....Krishna will protect us from all circumstances if we are

sincere.....i however have lesser faith since i am unable to remain

sincere...actually it is my lack of sincerity that prevents me from dressing

as a Vaishnava when i go out.....to work or any other place.....if i were a

good sadhana devotee...i wld have the courage to go places and proudly

display my status as a devotee....actually by seeing a Vaishanava with full

tilak..even the observer is benefited..also even if he taunts me as Hare

Krishna...he gains unimaginable benefit by chanting the Holy Name....so even

dressing as a Vaishnava at all times is preaching.......

 

 

there are so many examples of our great sanyasis and other preachers in

ISKCON who have risked their lives and preached......some have even been

attacked by crazy people..with knife wounds....people trying to slit their

throats etc .....however their unflinching faith in the Lord has made them

carry on....without fear....and without bodyguards etc......

you will notice that many other so called Gurus or Godmen from other places

sometimes have large number of bodyguards....this itself conveys a lack of

faith in Krishna on the part of these impersonators..who call themselves

GOd....recently one Nigerian lady was mentioning this ...she said she began

to develope doubts on whether Sai Baba is God when his followers gave an

explanation for his rare travels nowadays....by saying..people are trying to

kill him..so he doesnt travel.....she was telling me..if he is God..then why

is he afraid....

 

undoubtedly this does not mean that we abandon all intelligence and put

ourselves into unnecessary danger...like jumping into a fire...

 

SP proved in every way ..that he had firm faith in the Lotus Feet of the

Lord...and all his disciples...often heard about examples.....are our most

esteemed Diksha and Siksha Gurus ......are showing us by the same

acharan......behaviour......that they too have firm faith in Guru and

Krishna...actually all SP followers at some juncture or the other are

displaying these wonderful characteristics of firm faith in the Fearless

One....

 

as you say ..SP mentioned that if we have a doubt..we shld refer his

books...most of the arguements for ritvikism is from letters...which are not

books....so shld we use them for debate....specially when all common people

dont have access to them....and SP intended KC for all....even commoners who

may not possess Vedabase and his letters...

 

if you look at his books...lets take the first one by him...the one he is

most known for...The Bhagavad Gita As It is..at one point of time...i think

he mentions ....if we read this one book sincerely and practice devotional

life well....then we can go back to Godhead...

 

if we look at chapter 4..text 34...

the whole concept of the parampara ...becomes crystal clear...

""""

TEXT 34

 

tad viddhi pranipatena

pariprasnena sevaya

upadeksyanti te jnanam

jnaninas tattva-darsinah

 

SYNONYMS

 

tat--that knowledge of different sacrifices; viddhi--try to understand;

pranipatena--by approaching a spiritual master; pariprasnena--by submissive

inquiries; sevaya--by the rendering of service; upadeksyanti--initiate;

te--unto you; jnanam--knowledge; jnaninah--the self-realized; tattva--truth;

darsinah--the seers.

 

TRANSLATION

 

Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from

him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized soul can

impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth.

 

PURPORT

 

The path of spiritual realization is undoubtedly difficult. The Lord

therefore advises us to approach a bona fide spiritual master in the line of

disciplic succession from the Lord Himself. No one can be a bona fide

spiritual master without following this principle of disciplic succession.

The Lord is the original spiritual master, and a person in the disciplic

succession can convey the message of the Lord as it is to his disciple. No

one can be spiritually realized by manufacturing his own process, as is the

fashion of the foolish pretenders. The Bhagavatam (6.3.19) says, dharmam tu

saksad bhagavat-pranitam--the path of religion is directly enunciated by the

Lord. Therefore, mental speculation or dry arguments cannot help lead one to

the right path. Nor by independent study of books of knowledge can one

progress in spiritual life. One has to approach a bona fide spiritual master

to receive the knowledge. Such a spiritual master should be accepted in full

surrender, and one should serve the spiritual master like a menial servant,

without false prestige. Satisfaction of the self-realized spiritual master

is the secret of advancement in spiritual life. Inquiries and submission

constitute the proper combination for spiritual understanding. Unless there

is submission and service, inquiries from the learned spiritual master will

not be effective. One must be able to pass the test of the spiritual master,

and when he sees the genuine desire of the disciple, he automatically

blesses the disciple with genuine spiritual understanding. In this verse,

both blind following and absurd inquiries are condemned. One should not only

hear submissively from the spiritual master, but one must also get a clear

understanding from him, in submission and service and inquiries. A bona fide

spiritual master is by nature very kind toward the disciple. Therefore when

the student is submissive and is always ready to render service, the

reciprocation of knowledge and inquiries becomes perfect.

""""""

so SP makes it clear that just by reading one cannot progress....the text is

self explanatory...

""Therefore, mental speculation or dry arguments cannot help lead one to the

right path. Nor by independent study of books of knowledge can one progress

in spiritual life. One has to approach a bona fide spiritual master to

receive the knowledge. Such a spiritual master should be accepted in full

surrender, and one should serve the spiritual master like a menial servant,

without false prestige. ""

 

the idea of ritvikism is a system by which maya is attacking us...giving us

the false prestige that we need not serve in menial capacity.....we are on

the same par as SP's first disciples....it also opens up avenues for some

people to claim...SP came to me in a dream...he ordered me to do this...he

asked me to tell everyone to obey me...etc....this way personal agendas can

also flourish..these are some possible stumbling blocks..

 

Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu Himself said trnad api sunicena taror api sahishnuna

amanina manadena kirtaniya sada harih

we shld consider ourselves smaller than the straw..and give all respect to

others....the ideal state for us is to consider ourselves most fallen ..and

others as superior...

if we move with this state of mind....then the Guru System becomes

immediately acceptable...

also this so called Crusade to save ISKCON and SP's movement at the cost of

Vaishnava aparad is maya's big attack on me......because it gives me the

wrong feeling of false ego that i am capable of fighting the ills of the

society.....I am capable of saving it...........I know what is right....I

have the right to point accusing fingers on others .....because I am

perfect......I know more than others......etc etc...

 

this has been my behaviour since so long....i am used to accusing

others....and immunising myself....i expect others to behave

exemplarily...but i refuse to do so...i give myself concessions to behave as

i please..but for others i have high standards....

 

what i admire about KC is that it teaches that for the Lord....even an ants

service is as valuable as that of Hanuman...He loves me inspite of my

faults.....so if He loves one and all.....and bestows His causeless mercy as

He feels...who am I to cast aspersions on His devotees......when He

reciprocates sweetly to their service....and blesses them with more and more

service and followers......how can i, insignificant me.......judge

others....

 

this world is His.....SP is His dear servant...and ISKCON is furthering His

own movement...His desire....

so whatever situation and whoever is assisting in spreading the Holy Name is

glorious...

 

what i would like to instrospect is this..is the slander of devotees thats

going on ..helping get newer people into the movement...is it strengthening

their faith....is it assisting the people who are slandering to progress in

spiritual life......

so ultimately as is said by the Goswamis we have to accept what is favorable

and reject the unfavorable...

a devotee's faults are to overlooked and his good points praised and

encouraged....this will make the whole movement flourish...

 

so i request my wandering mind to introspect more and more......to realise

that i need to correct myself first..and accuse others less.....feel less

victimised..and blame others less for my problems......

i am in this position onlky because i was envious of the Lord....and here i

am in this world...trying to correct myself...but again displaying my

enviousness to other living beings...accusing them of so many faults.......

 

as SP once said...i cant quote perfectly.....ISKCON is a hospital.....there

are many patients.....few doctors.....try to correct your own

disease......dont look at others diseases..

 

please forgive me for all my offenses.....i am very fallen and

envious....and very puffed up....always trying to look right......act know

all......seeking prestige...money and so many other abominable things.....

please bless me so that i may get rid of all anarthas...

 

Your insignificant servant

 

Mahaprabhu Caitanya das

 

requests your blessings to follow the instructions of Sri Krishna Caitanya

Mahaprabhu

 

trnad api sunicena taror api sahishnuna

amanina manadena kirtaniya sada harih

 

Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare

Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare

 

Please check the link below to see photos of recent events in Nigeria.

 

mahaprabhucaitanyadas

 

Dear Mahaprabhu Caitanya prabhu,

 

Please accept my humble obeisances. All Glories To Srila Prabhupada, our

Guru Maharaja.

 

Thank you for your message, I found it particularly open and honest. I am

concerned to give too many personal details since friends of mine have very

recently been physically assaulted by “devotees” for mildly questioning the

current guru system. But I am married and work in the legal field.

 

You observe:

 

>i was doing some small research and i found that in one instance SP

>rejected a second initiation...when it was recommended by a TP..his handing

> over of this important role of selection > and rejection to someof his

>disciples is an important turning point.....

 

You are absolutely correct prabhuji. After July 9th 1977, Srila Prabhupada

had absolutely no involvement in accepting or rejecting disciples. He had

set up a system that did not require his physical involvement in any way.

You say:

 

>i concede that my point was irrelevant..i thank you for educating me on

>this

 

I greatly appreciate your humility and honesty on this point; I shall strive

to learn from your fine example. You ask:

 

>.....however your point that TP and ritviks were handed responsibility to

>accept and reject..is confusing..the letter mentions only the 11

>people..does it not?

 

Yes, sorry if I was not clearer. You see, the TP will only send to the

ritvik the names of those within his temple, or congregation, whom he deems

worthy of initiation. So the TP has already filtered out or rejected anyone

he does not think is ready. Then after that the ritvik can also reject

someone if he is not happy. So it is a perfect system of checks and balances

with a third layer, the GBC, overlooking the whole thing. In this system, if

a ritvik or TP or GBC has some spiritual problem, it is not going to cause

any major effect. However, in the current system, when a so-called guru goes

down, or just goes weird, it is a complete disaster for all his poor

disciples. Srila Prabhupada knew what he was doing.

 

I look forward to your response to my last reply, and am ready and eager to

move onto your next objection.

 

Your servant

Deepak

 

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