An Important Conversation: Srila Prabhupada with Bharadvaja

[Guest guest]

Room Conversation

With Bharadvaja

--

October 16, 1977, Vrndavana

 

Bharadvaja: I have an outline with me. An outline.

 

Prabhupada: You have?

 

Bharadvaja: Yes, I have it here. Of the ideas. Perhaps I could read some

portion to you?

 

Prabhupada: Yes.

 

Bharadvaja: This is a simple outline here. Theme. The theme of this exhibit

is "What is life and what is the purpose of life?" So it is in four

sections. The first section deals with... It's an introduction, and it deals

with the basic topics: "What I am and who I am." And then we go to explain

what is the embodied soul. First we show the process of creation, how the

world is created.

 

Prabhupada: Hm?

 

Bharadvaja: I'm just giving a very simple outline now. There's more notes on

this. Then we show how the spirit soul enters the creation by Maha-Visnu.

And then we show how the soul evolves up to human form of life through all

the different species. Then, in the second, in the third portion, rather, we

deal with the human form of life. And there's five different points: first,

the place of the human form in the evolutionary cycle; and number two, human

form of life as a turning point; then three, human life is meant for

self-realization, not sense gratification; and four, not executing the

mission of human life is the source of all problems; and five, establishment

and maintenance of dharma by the avataras and the disciplic succession. And

the last movement is entitled "The Perfection of Life."

 

Prabhupada: Hm?

 

Bharadvaja: The last portion of the exhibition is called "The Perfection of

Life," and it is comprised of two portions, two parts. The first part

describes the process of self-realization, and the second part is called the

transcendence into the spiritual world, with emphasis on the reality of

transcendental variegatedness and personality. That means we're actually

going to try to give the viewer an experience of becoming purified. His

senses are gradually becoming purified through the process of

self-realization, and then we take him through the different spiritual

realizations. And then the last part is Vrndavana-lila of Krsna, to show

that the Lord is a perfect person and that everyone has a place in His

personal service in the spiritual world. So this is the... That's the simple

outline, and I have another portion here which deals a little more

elaborately. I'll just read some of the things to you. So we call the

introduction to the exhibition, we call it "The Overture." In this

introduction there are several points. The first point is that we are not

made up of... We're showing what is the body. So we're showing that the body

is made up of different elements. And there's a film that shows how the man

is made up of different component parts We are showing that different organs

are just like different machines and mechanical systems, and that life is

consciousness and that consciousness is different from and did not come from

matter. So we're showing that the heart is like a pump, and lungs are like

bellows, and the eyes are like cameras, and the ears are like tape

recorders, and the brain is like a computer, and so on. But behind all of

these machines there is the witness, there is the seer, or the soul. So he

is different from all these different machines. Then we show... We take

everything down to smaller and smaller particles, and we bring everything

down to atomic structure, and then we show that there does not seem to be

any purpose to this. So where is life? Are we just...? My life is full of

purpose, so where is the life here? Can we be just molecules? Where does

life begin? On this portion of the exhibit we are working with Svarupa

Damodara and the Bhaktivedanta Institute to make a scientific presentation.

This will involve films and dolls and other special effects to show the...,

how ridiculous is the idea of material evolution, so-called evolution of

matter into consciousness. So Svarupa Damodara has his own presentation that

we're going to use here. We've seen some of it during the conference. Then

the second exhibit will perhaps be a whole group of scientists, and these

scientists are sitting in one room, but they're all from different ages. And

each one of them in turn expresses that they're having so many doubts. This

we will take directly from their own quotations from different biographies,

and we will show that the scientists are very confused about the origin of

life, that they cannot actually explain anything, and they are saying this

in their own words. Many scientists have said things like this-Darwin,

Einstein. We have a list of eight here, and we can use their quotes. And

they express bafflement, ignorance and failure to understand life or explain

the universe. Then we show how... We put man back together out of chemicals,

so-called. We're going back to the original man, which... We have analyzed

one man, and now we're going back from the molecular level again back to the

man. And then we show how the fetus is developing. We're showing that the

life and consciousness is there from the very beginning. And then there is a

film that shows this, and then that shifts to that display of the changing

body.

 

Prabhupada: Life begins from water.

 

Bharadvaja: Life begins from water? How is that?

 

Prabhupada: Just like the sea. Sea, and from within the sea an exhibition of

life begins in the form of sea animals or fish or similar. Then life

develops, evolves. Life... Sea does not generate life, but in the material

world, life begins from water.

 

Bharadvaja: So we will show this.

 

Prabhupada: Ksine punye punar martya-lokam visanti, that from higher

planets, they fall down with water, and then again, like bubbles, begins

from water, life. As the water dries up, then vegetables, and then... Jalaja

nava-laksani sthavara laksa... Then moving animals and ants, reptiles. In

this way, birds, beast, then four-legged animals, then uncivilized man, then

civilized man with Vedic knowledge, then God realization. This is the

process.

 

Bharadvaja: Very wonderful, Srila Prabhupada. We have this evolution in our

second exhibit. We want to show that in the beginning the Lord was there,

and that by His energy the universe is created and all the different

elements are evolved by His glance.

 

Prabhupada: Yes, everything is generated from His energy. He is original

cause of two energies, material and spiritual. Therefore He is the original

cause.

 

Bharadvaja: In the second part we're also showing that the Lord, out of His

infinite kindness and mercy, has created the material world so that the

living entities can be corrected.

 

Prabhupada: Yes. It is a chance to come to understanding.

 

Bharadvaja: We also have a diorama here of Isaac Newton showing the model of

the universe to his friend, and his friend says, "Oh, such a brilliant

thing, such a wonderful model. Who has made this?" And he says, "Nobody. It

just appeared here." And he makes his point that if such a small thing has

taken so much intelligence and skill, then what to speak of the great

universe that we see before us? How could it have come from nothing?

 

Prabhupada: Yes. Ideas are there. If it is properly exhibited, it will be

wonderful thing.

 

Bharadvaja: Then we have... We are showing that human and animal, they have

the same activity basically. So what is the difference between man and

animal? So we show in this diorama. And we also show that actually sometimes

animals are superior to man because they sometimes have better senses. The

dog can smell better, the elephant can eat more, and the pigeon can have

more sex, etcetera. So, again, why is man considered superior if animals

have better senses? So then the third point, we are showing that human life

means responsibility.

 

Prabhupada: No, vulture, from miles afar can find out where is a dead

carcass.

 

Bharadvaja: Vulture. Very strong eyes. Right.

 

Prabhupada: Strong eye, but looking third class. (Bharadvaja laughs)

 

Bharadvaja: We're also showing that human life means responsibility. Even on

an ordinary level we are showing that a man may break a law and he's

punished, but a dog, he's not punished for breaking man's law. He may cross

the street in the wrong place, he is not punished by the law, but the man

is. Animals are walking without clothes, but if a man goes out in the street

without clothes, he's arrested. So we are making the point here that man is

held responsible for his actions, whereas animal is not. And then we show...

The conclusion of this is "Therefore human life has responsibility to engage

in the pursuit of knowledge and advancing, not degrading himself." Then we

want to show that misuse of this human form of life, or giving up that

responsibility, has created a chaos in the world, that the world has become

full of madness and fear and pain, and the whole civilization is misguided.

We want to show on film, side by side, U.N. politicians barking in U.N. and

cats and dogs barking in the street.

 

Prabhupada: That is explained by Bhaktivinoda Thakura. Mayar bose, jaccho

bese.

 

Bharadvaja: Khaccho...

 

Prabhupada: Radha-Krsna Bol

 

(from Gitavali)

by Bhaktivinoda Thakura

 

(1)

 

'radha-krsna' bol bol bolo re sobai

(ei) sikha diya, sab nadiya

phirche nece' gaura-nitai

(miche) mayar bose, jaccho bhese',

khaccho habudubu, bhai

 

(2)

 

(jiv) krsna-das, e biswas,

korle to' ar duhkho nai

(krsna) bolbe jabe, pulak ha'be

jhorbe ankhi, boli tai

 

(3)

 

('radha) krsna' bolo, sange calo,

ei-matra bhikha cai

(jay) sakal'bipod bhaktivinod

bole, jakhon o-nam gai

 

(1) "Everyone chant, chant, chant, 'Radha-Krsna'!" Lord Caitanya and Lord

Nityananda are dancing all over the land of Nadia giving this teaching to

all. O brother, needlessly under the control of maya you suffer and are

carried away by her waves, sometimes floating and sometimes sinking in this

ocean of illusion.

 

(2) If you have this faith that the soul is the eternal servant of Krsna,

then there will be no more misery. And when you chant the holy name of

Krsna, your body will shiver in ecstasy and your eyes will shed tears in

love of God. This is what I say.

 

(3) Chant 'Radha-Krsna' in the association of devotees. This is the only

request I beg. Thakura Bhaktivinoda says, "When I chant that holy name of

the Lord, all dangers go away."Khaccho habudubu bhai. Bhaktivinoda Thakura's

song. Those who have eyes to see, they will see all of them being washed

away by the waves of maya, habudubu.

 

Bharadvaja: Then we want to make another point, that in spite of so much

chaos, there is solution, and that solution is Srimad-Bhagavatam. And we

show a scene from Srimad-Bhagavatam. On the bank of Yamuna, Pariksit

Maharaja is there and so many sages, and he's inquiring from Sukadeva

Gosvami.

 

Prabhupada: Very good.

 

Bharadvaja: And Sukadeva Gosvami begins to instruct him. And he explains the

whole process of how the living entity has come under the control of maya

and how he can become extricated. This is a theatrical piece. There will be

some animation.

 

Prabhupada: The second chapter. Find out the verses.

 

Bhakti-caru: Second chapter? Bhagavad-gita.

 

Prabhupada: Yam pravrajantam.

 

Bharadvaja: Giriraja has gone to get the book. Then there will be some

dioramas of different avataras-Krsna, Buddha and Caitanya Mahaprabhu-showing

how They have come to protect the dharma, to reestablish the dharma. Krsna

is speaking to Arjuna on the battlefield.

 

Prabhupada: Giriraja come back.

 

Bharadvaja: He's here.

 

Giriraja: Yes.

 

Bharadvaja: On this side, Prabhupada.

 

Prabhupada: The verse yam pravrajantam... Second chapter. When Vyasadeva is

following Sukadeva Gosvami.

 

Bharadvaja: Yes. Yam pravrajantam anupetam [sB 1.2.2].

 

Prabhupada: Read it.

 

Giriraja:

 

suta uvaca

yam pravrajantam anupetam apeta-krtyam

dvaipayano viraha-katara ajuhava

putreti tan-mayataya taravo 'bhinedus

tam sarva-bhuta-hrdayam munim anato 'smi

[sB 1.2.2]

 

Prabhupada: Hm. Next part.

 

Upendra: Read the translation.

 

Giriraja: Translation. "Srila Suta Gosvami said: Let me offer my respectful

obeisances unto that great sage, Sukadeva Gosvami, who can enter the hearts

of all. When he went away to take up the renounced order of life sannyasa,

leaving home without undergoing the sacred thread ceremony, his father,

Vyasadeva, cried out to him, 'O my son!' Indeed, only the trees echoed in

response to the begrieved father."

 

Prabhupada: Next verse.

 

Giriraja:

 

yah svanubhavam akhila-sruti-saram ekam

adhyatma-dipam atititirsatam tamo 'ndham

samsarinam karunayaha purana-guhyam...

[sB 1.2.3]

 

Prabhupada: Hm. This is... Samsarinam karunaya.

 

Giriraja: Samsarinam karunayaha purana-guhyam tam vyasa-sunum upayami gurum

muninam: "Let me offer my respectful obeisances unto him, Suka, the

spiritual master of all sages, the son of Vyasadeva, who, out of his great

compassion for those gross materialists who struggle to cross over the

darkest regions of material existence, spoke this Purana, supplement to the

Vedas, the cream of Vedic knowledge, after having personally assimilated it

by experience."

 

Prabhupada: Hm. Read the next verse.

 

Giriraja:

 

narayanam namaskrtya

naram caiva narottamam

devim sarasvatim vyasam

tato jayam udirayet

[sB 1.2.4]

 

"Before reciting this Srimad-Bhagavatam, which is our very means of

conquest, I offer my respectful obeisances unto the Personality of Godhead,

Narayana; unto Nara-narayana Rsi, the supermost human being; unto mother

Sarasvati, the goddess of learning; and unto Srila Vyasadeva, the author."

 

munayah sadhu prsto 'ham

bhavadbhir loka-mangalam

yat-krtah krsna-samprasno

yenatma suprasidati

[sB 1.2.5]

 

"O sages, I have been justly questioned by you."

 

Prabhupada: These things can be exhibited. That's all right.

 

Bharadvaja: Jaya Srila Prabhupada.

 

Prabhupada: So you have made the outline first class. Now, if it is

carefully done, at least in the Western country, it will be a very, very

wonderful thing.

 

Bharadvaja: We're just trying to fulfill your desires, Srila Prabhupada.

 

Prabhupada: Do it. Krsna will fulfill.

 

Bharadvaja: Srila Prabhupada? Long time ago, you wanted an exhibit in

London. It seemed very important to you.

 

Prabhupada: Yes, London there is good place. Many visitors come.

 

Bharadvaja: We have been considering where is the best place for this next

big exhibit.

 

Prabhupada: London, it is...

 

Bharadvaja: That would be better than Washington?

 

Prabhupada: No, Washington, it is also... London, there are many hundreds of

tourists daily come.

 

Jayatirtha: Right now there's a place available, a lot one block from Madame

Tusseaud's in London. We thought that to be in the same area might be a good

thing, because so many people are coming to that place.

 

Prabhupada: Yes, in the center of the city.

 

Jayatirtha: There's a big lot available just one block away. I think you

lived on that corner at one time, just across from Madame Tusseaud's.

 

Prabhupada: I lived there?

 

Jayatirtha: When you first went to London, didn't you stay for some time

there? Just in that area?

 

Prabhupada: Yes, yes.

 

Jayatirtha: So just around the corner there there's one place available.

 

Prabhupada: No, that is occupied.

 

Jayatirtha: No, it's vacant, completely vacant. There's no longer a building

on this place.

 

Prabhupada: Hm. That's a nice place.

 

Tamala Krsna: Srila Prabhupada? Do you want to have kirtana?

 

Prabhupada: Yes. Give me covering and go on, kirtana. (end)

 

Room Conversation

About 10th Canto

--

October 16, 1977, Vrndavana

 

771016rc.vrn