Not Bowing Down is NOT an option / Jagad Guru cannot initiate

[Guest guest]

Dear Sankarsan prabhu, Hare Krishna!

 

Actually, what happened is that I replied to Madhusudana and Bhakta Deepak

and they posted my letter to Initiations. So, yes, in one way you can say I

am back!

 

You wrote:

 

<<<<<<Srila Prabhupada states in Antya 5.85 purport,

 

"A person who knows what is spiritual and what is material

and who is firmly fixed in the spiritual position can be

jagad-guru, the spiritual master of the entire world."

CC Antya 5.85

 

It's interesting to note that according to your ritvik philosophy

even such a jagad-guru that we can become by dint of full

surrender to Srila Prabhupada would not be allowed to initate

disciples.>>>>>>>

 

The instructions of the BONAFIDE PARAMAHAMSA SPIRITUAL MASTER is not like a

box with chocolate in different sizes, where you can choose from. The

instructions of the Spiritual Master have to be accepted IN TOTAL and WITH

COMPLETE FAITH.

"yasya deve para bhaktir, yatha deve tatha gurau"

 

The verse above applies to Srila Prabhupada himself, who was to be according

to his spiritual master, the SElF EFFULGENT ACHARYA.

 

It does not apply to every Krishna das en Krishna dasi, who thinks they are

authorised and qualified to take on the role of DIKSHA GURU.

 

Shastra states that no one but the uttama adhikari/mahabhagavata devotee can

take up the post of Diksha Guru. And also that such a Diksha Guru is

eternally in the parampara, not sneaking in.

 

The claim of the first appointed ritviks was that they were mahabhagavata's

and therefore chosen by Srila Prahbupada to be his successors in the

parampara, can be nothing but a lie., for as history has proven certainly

not all of these devotees were on Uttama Adhikari platform.

Thus the claim, that Srila Prabhupada authorised them cannot be right.

 

Now, to make up for the defects in the ISKCON DIKSHA GURUS, the GBC then

made up the story that one need NOT be a pure devotee to be GURU.......a

majority vote of the GBC would do - simply rubberstamp one as guru, who can

act thus, till he falls down.

 

This is such a bogus philosophy, just like thinking that Siksha is to be

equal to Diksha - There is no difference! There is difference. We are after

all not mayavadis or followers of the philosophy of non-differentiation.

Lord Caitanya's philsophy is acintya bhed abheda tattva. Simultaneously one

and different. So, whereas, Siksha is said to be more important than Diksha,

and Siksha Guru is to be seen as being equal to Diksha Guru, still there is

huge difference between the different types of Gurus. Is it so

inconceivable, that even our learned brahmanas and sanyasis cannot

understand? This is surely the trick of the witch MAYA.

 

It is the last snare of maya, that is keeping all you fortunate, yet

unfortunate souls, from fully surrendering to the will of Srila Prabhupada

and Krishna. It is unfortunate, for Maya has still got ISKCON under her

control, that even the most exalted personalities in the Movement are not

aloud to surpass her last snare: namely the desire for profit, distinction

and adoration.

 

Please come to your senses and defeat MAYA totally. Only then will ISKCON

become Invincible and beat back the advance of KALI YUGA.

 

Why wait for generations after us to put things right? The Gaudiya Matha

went astray. Please do not allow ISKCON to go astray!

 

I beg all the advanced vaisnavas to humbly examine all the instructions

given by OUR SPIRITUAL MASTER and being determined to not let MAYA win, make

the right choice to allow LORD CAITANYA'S SANKIRTAN MOVEMENT to expand.

 

yours in Srila Prabhupada's service,

Krishnapriya devi dasi

[Guest guest]

Hare Krsna,

 

All glories to Srila Prabhupada. I am not really part of this conversation,

and I will not say much since I am not qualified by anyone's standards to

speak. However, it seems to me that both parties in this continuing argument

are

correct and that both have sastra to back them up. No one has defeated anyone

else. Any of Srila Prabhupada's diciples can initiate new diciples, the

succession is there. On the other hand, if Srila Prabhupada wants to be an

initiating

spiritual master from off of the planet, that is also possible if he has said

so. Krsna is in everyone's heart, so a connection from beyond the grave is not

impossible. I am sure there will be people that can not accept any living

person as perfect guru, but these people may be willing to still follow Srila

Prabhupada's instructions via his books or Krsna in their heart. For them,

there

is Ritvik. On the other hand, the tradition demands a living guru and all of

the stories in the Bhagavatam are in that vein and it is here that the more

traditional, official future will lie and it is here that ISKCON authority will

 

remain. According to Bhakti Prajnana Kesava Gosvami Maharaja in the book The

Process of Deity Worship (p. xii),

 

"It should be carefully noted that the congregational chanting of the

holy name of the Supreme Lord is the recommended religious practice for this

age, and that by this congreagational chanting of the holy name, or by worship

 

of the holy name, all perfection come up to the development of pure

krsna-prema, or love for the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna. It is also

a fact

that in the hari-nama-sankirtana, there is actually no necessity for initiation

 

into the mantras. Nevertheless, Srila Narada Muni and other mahajanas, in

order to constrict the conduct of ordinary mankind, which is endowed with

scattered minds and abdominable natures, due to being trapped within the

repeated

cycle of birth and death in various gross and subtle bodies, have in some

places established the rules and particular guidelines of initiation and Deity

 

worship according to the Pancaratra. Not only that, but they have also shown

different qualifications in cases of devotees overstepping the rules of Deity

worship and initiation. Therefore in all Vaisnava sampradayas, or disciplic

successions, there is provision for Deity worship after initiation into the

Vaisnava mantra and the holy name, in order to calm the disturbed minds and

transform the abominable characters of the candidates, or those desiring to

advance

in spiritual realization"

 

Defeating any argument from me will not be difficult, but it seems to me that

proper initiation from a living spiritual master in the parampara is the best

course of action for everyone, but there are exceptions to that. Lord

Caitanya Himself was initiated properly, and that activity will certainly make

the

Lord happy, and that is why I have wished to be initiated for years. But, I

ain't the Lord, and I can't or won't follow every rule that Srila Prabhupada

has

asked, but there is still room for me in Srila Prabhupada's heart. Brevity is

probably my best course here.

 

Joey

[Guest guest]

In reply to Sankarsana prabhu:

 

Who quoted.....

 

"A person who knows what is spiritual and what is

material and who is firmly fixed in the spiritual

position can be jagad-guru, the spiritual master of

the entire world." CC Antya 5.85

 

The key words here are - *can be*

 

How is the instruction that something can happen the

same as authorising that it must? e.g. one can drive a

car once one is 17 years old (in the UK). But separate

qualification and then authorisation is also required.

It is not automatic. Qualification and authorisation

must also be there.

Srila Prabhupada taught that specific authorisation

from the predecessor acarya was essential before

anyone could act as a diksa guru:

 

"One should take initiation from a bona fide spiritual

master coming in the disciplic succession, who is

authorised by his predecessor spiritual master. This

is called diksa -vidhana." (S.B. 4.8.54, purport)

 

The ISKCON movement is based on the teachings of Srila

Prabhupada, and not the GBC. If one wants to drive a

car, then this is possible for all, but only with

*qualification* and *authorisation*. Ironically, these

self-appointed gurus have no authorisation to act

independently as initiating gurus. I can prove this,

as there are no gurus in any bonafide sampradaya that

have been voted into the position of a guru. I quote

from Srila Prabhupada:

 

"Guru cannot be self-made. No. There is no such single

instance throughout the whole Vedic literature. And

nowadays, so many rascals, they are becoming guru

without any authority. That is not guru. You must be

authorised. Evam parampara-praptam imam ra... As soon

as the parampara is...kalena yogo nasta parantapa,

immediately finished. The spiritual potency finished.

You can dress like a guru, you can talk big, big

words, but it will never be effective." (Srila

Prabhupada Lecture, 27th February 1977, Mayapur,

India)

 

So where is the authorisation for the present ISKCON

(so-called) diksa-gurus?

 

ysmsd

 

 

 

 

--- "Sankarsana (das) ACBSP (Austin, Texas - USA)"

<Sankarsana.ACBSP (AT) pamho (DOT) net> wrote:

 

> Krishna Priya Mataji,

> PAHMO.

>

> I see you changed your mind about leaving us, that

> now bowing

> out is not an option for you. Welcome back!! You

> have

> certainly been one of the key players in keeping

> this a lively

> exciting conference.

>

> We have to always remember that not bowing down is

> also not an

> option. Because we are always meant to bow down to

> Vaisnavas

> even if we disagree with them. Even if we disagree

> with each

> other there should be no enmity between us.

>

> I just came across a quote I wanted to share with

> the conference

> members:

>

> Srila Prabhupada states in Antya 5.85 purport,

>

> "A person who knows what is spiritual and what is

> material

> and who is firmly fixed in the spiritual position

> can be

> jagad-guru, the spiritual master of the entire

> world."

> CC Antya 5.85

>

> It's interesting to note that according to your

> ritvik philosophy

> even such a jagad-guru that we can become by dint of

> full

> surrender to Srila Prabhupada would not be allowed

> to initate

> disciples.

>

> Hoping this meets you well,

> Your Servant in the Guru Parampara Camp

>

> Sankarshan Das Adhikari

>

>

> Krishna Priya (dasi) (Amsterdam - NL)

> [Krishna.Priya (AT) pamho (DOT) net]

>

> Thursday, January 13, 2005 3:08 AM

> Deepak Vohra; Madhusudana Dasa; Initiations in

> ISKCON

> Bowing out NOT an option

>

> <<<<<"Merely to "smash" the theories of the

> post-samadhi rttvik people,

> then, will not make such theories go away. We must

> honestly face the

> underlying issues.

> Who is a bona fide spiritual master? What

> qualifications must he have? Are

> the gurus in ISKCON factually qualified--all of

> them, some of them, or any

> of them? If all or any of them are less than fully

> fit, what implications

> does this have for their disciples and for ISKCON?

> In ISKCON today, how can

> one be sure that the spiritual master to whom one is

> surrendering is genuine

> and infallible? Above all, how can every member of

> ISKCON be connected with

> Srila Prabhupada as his disciple, his follower, in a

> true and legitimate

> sense?>>>>>

>

> I fully agree with Madhusudana prabhu. Personally I

> refuse to accept that I

> am going wrong in taking shelter of Srila Prabhupada

> directly as MY DIKSHA

> Guru. Unless the GBC proves that I am mistaken in my

> understanding, I cannot

> simply switch back, as a matter of "required

> etiquette".

> When I rejected my socalled initiating spiritual

> master, my life should have

> become hellish. Instead my spiritual life is

> becoming better than ever

> before..........so how should I explain this? If

> after all, I was to be an

> offender to the vaishnavas seriously questioning

> this "Initiation Issue"

> then surely I would have gotten some reaction, not

> firm determination to

> continue on my path back to Godhead, enthusiasm to

> chant, to read Srila

> Prabhupada's books and above all to preach the

> glories of Lord Caitanya?

>

> your servant,

> Krishnapriya dasi

>

>

>

>

>

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