Ritvik Philosophy If left Unchecked Will be the Death of ISKCON

[Guest guest]

The ritvikvadis say that ye krsna-tattva-vetta, sei guru haya

(One who knows the science of Krishna can become a guru) means

that one who knows the science of Krishna may become a siksa-guru or

a vartma-pradarsaka-guru but not an initiator guru. According to

the ritvikvadis only Srila Prabhupada can be the initiator guru.

However, this interpretation is not acceptable to Vaisnavas because

according to His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada, the word guru in this

verse spoken by Lord Caitanya applies to the vartma-pradarsaka guru,

the siksa guru, and the diksha (initiator) guru as well.

 

This deviant ritvik philosophy is an attempt by the personality of

Kali to bring an end to the Brahma Sampradaya. If this is ritvik

philosophy is allowed to go unchecked it will bring about the complete

destruction of ISKCON. Therefore it must quickly and thoroughly

uprooted and defeated for the sake of Lord Caitanya's mission.

The ritvikvadis call themselves the ISKCON Revival Movement when

in fact they are the ISKCON Ruination Movement.

 

That the knower of the Krishna science can be an initiator guru is

confirmed by Srila Prabhupada in the Teachings of Lord Caitanya as follows,

 

"Whatever position one may have, if he is fully conversant with the science

of Krishna, Krishna consciousness, he can become a bona fide spiritual

master, initiator or teacher of the science." TLC, Chapter 31

 

 

Sankarshan Das Adhikari

15 January 2005

[Guest guest]

In reply to Sankarshan prabhu:

Who has quoted .....

 

"Whatever position one may have, if he is fully

conversant with the science of Krishna, Krishna

consciousness, he can become a bona fide spiritual

master, initiator or teacher of the science." TLC,

Chapter 31

 

My reply is the same as it was for the last quote you

posted.....

 

Here again the key words are *he can become*.

 

How is the instruction that something can happen the

same as authorising that it must? e.g. one can drive a

car once one is 17 years old (in the UK). But separate

qualification and then authorisation is also required.

It is not automatic. Qualification and authorisation

must also be there.

Srila Prabhupada taught that specific authorisation

from the predecessor acarya was essential before

anyone could act as a diksa guru:

 

"One should take initiation from a bona fide spiritual

master coming in the disciplic succession, who is

authorised by his predecessor spiritual master. This

is called diksa -vidhana." (S.B. 4.8.54, purport)

 

The ISKCON movement is based on the teachings of Srila

Prabhupada, and not the GBC. If one wants to drive a

car, then this is possible for all, but only with

*qualification* and *authorisation*. Ironically, these

self-appointed gurus have no authorisation to act

independently as initiating gurus. I can prove this,

as there are no gurus in any bonafide sampradaya that

have been voted into the position of a guru. I quote

from Srila Prabhupada:

 

"Guru cannot be self-made. No. There is no such single

instance throughout the whole Vedic literature. And

nowadays, so many rascals, they are becoming guru

without any authority. That is not guru. You must be

authorised. Evam parampara-praptam imam ra... As soon

as the parampara is...kalena yogo nasta parantapa,

immediately finished. The spiritual potency finished.

You can dress like a guru, you can talk big, big

words, but it will never be effective." (Srila

Prabhupada Lecture, 27th February 1977, Mayapur,

India)

 

So where is the authorisation for the present ISKCON

(so-called) diksa-gurus?

 

 

btw. I must compliment you on a rather astute

observation - that IRM (Ritvik Philosophy) will be the

death of the *MAYA* ISKCON which YOU steadfastly

represent.

However let me assure you that ISKCON WILL flourish

for the next 9,500 years, despite what certain demons

try to do - to the contrary.

 

ysmsd

 

 

 

 

--- Sankarshan Das Adhikari

<sda (AT) UltimateSelfRealization (DOT) com> wrote:

 

> The ritvikvadis say that ye krsna-tattva-vetta, sei

> guru haya

> (One who knows the science of Krishna can become a

> guru) means

> that one who knows the science of Krishna may become

> a siksa-guru or

> a vartma-pradarsaka-guru but not an initiator guru.

> According to

> the ritvikvadis only Srila Prabhupada can be the

> initiator guru.

> However, this interpretation is not acceptable to

> Vaisnavas because

> according to His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada, the

> word guru in this

> verse spoken by Lord Caitanya applies to the

> vartma-pradarsaka guru,

> the siksa guru, and the diksha (initiator) guru as

> well.

>

> This deviant ritvik philosophy is an attempt by the

> personality of

> Kali to bring an end to the Brahma Sampradaya. If

> this is ritvik

> philosophy is allowed to go unchecked it will bring

> about the complete

> destruction of ISKCON. Therefore it must quickly

> and thoroughly

> uprooted and defeated for the sake of Lord

> Caitanya's mission.

> The ritvikvadis call themselves the ISKCON Revival

> Movement when

> in fact they are the ISKCON Ruination Movement.

>

> That the knower of the Krishna science can be an

> initiator guru is

> confirmed by Srila Prabhupada in the Teachings of

> Lord Caitanya as follows,

>

> "Whatever position one may have, if he is fully

> conversant with the science

> of Krishna, Krishna consciousness, he can become a

> bona fide spiritual

> master, initiator or teacher of the science." TLC,

> Chapter 31

>

>

> Sankarshan Das Adhikari

> 15 January 2005

>

>

>

>

>

-----------------------

> To from this mailing list, send an email

> to:

> Initiations.in.ISKCON-Owner (AT) pamho (DOT) net

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Madhusudana Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP!

 

> So where is the authorisation for the present ISKCON

> (so-called) diksa-gurus?

 

What would you accept as an authorization?

 

Sankarsana Prabhu several times wrote that he has been instructed by Srila

Prabhupada to become initiating guru after his departure. Isn't that the

authorization?

 

ys Ramakanta dasa

[Guest guest]

> So where is the authorisation for the present ISKCON

> (so-called) diksa-gurus?

 

>From the conversation May 28 1977:

 

Satsvarupa: By the votes of the present GBC. Then our next question concerns

initiations in the future, particularly at that time when you're no longer

with us. We want to know how first and second initiation would be conducted.

Prabhupada: Yes. I shall recommend some of you. After this is settled up, I

shall recommend some of you to act as officiating acaryas.

Tamala Krsna: Is that called rtvik-acarya?

Prabhupada: Rtvik, yes.

Satsvarupa: Then what is the relationship of that person who gives the

initiation and the...

Prabhupada: He's guru. He's guru.

Satsvarupa: But he does it on your behalf.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is formality. Because in my presence one should not

become guru, so on my behalf, on my order... Amara ajnaya guru hana [Cc.

Madhya 7.128]. Be actually guru, but by my order.

Satsvarupa: So they may also be considered your disciples.

Prabhupada: Yes, they are disciples. Why consider? Who?

Tamala Krsna: No, he's asking that these rtvik-acaryas, they're officiating,

giving diksa. Their... The people who they give diksa to, whose disciple are

they?

Prabhupada: They're his disciple.

Tamala Krsna: They're his disciple.

Prabhupada: Who is initiating. He is granddisciple.

Satsvarupa: Yes.

Tamala Krsna: That's clear.

Satsvarupa: Then we have a question concer...

Prabhupada: When I order, "You become guru," he becomes regular guru. That's

all. He becomes disciple of my disciple. That's it.

 

Ref. VedaBase => GBC Meets with Srila Prabhupada -- May 28, 1977, Vrndavana

[Guest guest]

Dear Prabhu's

 

Please accept my humble obeisances.

All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

 

Jahnu dasa when asked

 

"So where is the authorisation for the present

ISKCON (so-called) diksa-gurus?"

 

He replied ..

 

"From the conversation May 28 1977:"

 

My question is, can he first of all prove that this

tape is bona-fide?

 

I ask this since the tape which this conversation is

taken from was sent for analysis and the experts

report is as follows ....

 

USA (VNN) - The VNN has learned that the National

Audio Video Forensic Laboratory has conducted a

forensic test on the so-called "Appointment Tapes".

The tapes were used by ISKCON officials to support the

ISKCON guru appointments following Srila Prabhupada's

departure in 1977. The VNN has received confirmation

from the Forensic Lab that it has in fact conducted

the analysis but was not able to confirm details of

the test to VNN due to client confidentiality.

 

Some Vaishnavas have raised the question whether the

"Appointment Tapes" had been tampered with by some

before they were released to the public. The forensic

test report states: "The efficiencies revealed are

audible, and are consistent with EDITING procedures

wherein WORDS are ELIMINATED or REARRANGED to CHANGE

the context of what is said." The report further

states: "In conclusion, this recording exhibits strong

signs suggestive of FALSIFICATION".

 

An ISKCON official has told VNN that the tapes are

under investigation by an ISKCON committee and that

the committee will release a full report when it has

completed it's research.

 

VNN has received the following letter which has been

made public on the Internet:

 

(begin letter)

National Audio Video Foresnic Laobratory

Norman I. Perle, B.C.F.E., F.A.C.F.E.

8357 Shirley Avenue - Northeidge, Ca., 91324-4146

Voice - 818/989-0990 - Fax - 818-993-8550

E-mail: perle (AT) ix (DOT) netcom.com / or

71601.771 (AT) compuserve (DOT) com, or ae293 (AT) LAFN (DOT) org,

Homepage:

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/perle

 

- Board Certified Forensic Examiner: American Board Of

Recorded Evidence, - FELLOW, AMERICAN COLEGE OF

FORENSIC EXAMINERS.

 

- Computerized Noise Removal/ Sound Enhancement:

Video/Audio

 

Authentication: Video Enhancements; Voice ID and

Comparison. State Of The Art, Full Service Recorded

Evidence Forensic Laboratory.

 

September 22, 1997

 

Attention Harvey Mechanic Esq.

 

TAPE ANALYSIS REPORT

 

On August 26, 1977 I received a standard analog tape

recording from your office for examination. On the

label of the cassete I affixed a tamperproof Security

Seal Number 16959 for identification.

 

My assignment was to review and analyze the recording

in order to determine if the content appears to be

authentic, in that the words spoken are in context and

appear to be all the words spoken at the moment of

time the recorded event occured. Additionally, there

should be no signs of inappropriate stopping and

re-starting of the recorder as well as the other

classifications of signs suggestive of falsification.

 

The analysis procedure included computer waveform

analysis, spectrographic chart analysis, FFT spectrum

frequency analysis and a critical aural review of the

audio.

 

EXPLANATION OF ATTACHED SUPPORTIVE EXHIBITS:

 

The attached exhibits are the results of Waveform and

Spectrogram Analysis. The upper window is a Waveform

of the acquired audio. This pattern represents audio

relative to time and amplitiude (volume). The large

lower window is a Spectrogram.

 

The Spectrogram represents audio relative to: 1)

Time--as shown on the bottom scale, horizontil axis.

2) Amplitude--as shown as the varying shades of

pattern, vertical axis. 3) Frequency--as shown in the

horizontal axis.

 

Each exhibit is annotated with an explanation as to

the area of audio acqusitition, and that is located in

the "Title Bar" on top of the Waveform. A more

detailed explanation of the spectogram patterns is

located in the "Title Bar" above each window.

 

EXPLANATION OF EXHIBITS AND CONCULSIONS:

 

EXHIBIT no.1 It is a display of how the sound starts

on this recording.

 

Absent is the Recorder Start Signature. Examples of

what a Start Signature looks like can be seen on

EXHIBIT no. 3, no. 4, and no. 5. This is consistent

with a recording made from an EDITED master recording.

 

EXHIBIT no. 2 Is a display of the audio located

approximately ten seconds into the recording. The

eficiencies revealed are audible, and are consistent

with EDITING procedures wherein WORDS are ELIMINATED

or REARRANGED to CHANGE the context of what is said.

 

EXHIBIT no. 3 is a display of the audio located

appoximately eleven minutes, thiry four seconds into

the recording. The deficiences are auible are are

significvantly similay to what one would exprect ot

hear and see should the Master recirdng be an editd

version.

 

EXHIBIT no. 4 is a display of the audio located

approximately eleven minutes thirty seven seconds into

the recording. This segment is located just after the

area shown in exhibit number three. This deficiency is

audible and is significantly similar to what one would

expect to hear and see should the Master recording be

an EDITED version.

 

EXHIBIT no. 5 is a dispaly of the audio located

approximately twenty two minutes, thirty three seconds

into the recording. This is the end of the segment(s).

One can hear, as well as see on the chart,

representation strikingly similar to STOP/RE-STARTS(s)

signatures. There is a remanent of audio after these

patterns.

 

EXHIBIT no. 6 is a diplay of the audio located at the

end of sound on this recording. Similar to the

beginning (Exhibit #1) there is an absence of the

anticipated stop signature.

 

SUMMARY

 

In conclusion, this recording exhibits strong signs

suggestive of FALSIFICATION. I do not believe that

these deficiencies might possibly the product of some

mechanical process or problem within the recording or

duplication process, and I beleive that they exist at

what is considered to be a high degree than that of a

coincidence.

 

I strongly recommend that an independent Forensic

Analysis be conducted on the Master recoring in order

to determine the authenticity an originality of the

evidence. This analysis requires what is represented

as the original recording and the original tpae

recorder upon which this recording was represented to

be be made. The forensic instrumental tests include

computer analysis, FFT spectral analysis, spectrogram

chart anaylysis, and microscopic photograhy of the

magnetic field on the original recording.

Additionally, the recordings will be compared for

dissimilarities as a critical listening procedure is

performed.

 

These tests are directed to discover (1) if the

recording has been edited in any manner so as to

effect the context of the words, (i.e. erasures,

inappropriate starting and re-stating of the

recorder), (2) If in fact the audio material is an

original source recording and not a re-recorded

version. The testing would determine the cause of any

deficiency within the audio track and is focused on

establishing an opinion as to the integrity and

authenticity of the evidence.

 

If you have any questions, please do not hesitate to

call me. Norman I. Perle

(end letter)

 

--- "Jahnu (Dvipa das JPS) (Mayapur - IN)"

<Jahnu (AT) pamho (DOT) net> wrote:

 

>

> > So where is the authorisation for the present

> ISKCON

> > (so-called) diksa-gurus?

>

> From the conversation May 28 1977:

>

> Satsvarupa: By the votes of the present GBC. Then

> our next question concerns

> initiations in the future, particularly at that time

> when you're no longer

> with us. We want to know how first and second

> initiation would be conducted.

> Prabhupada: Yes. I shall recommend some of you.

> After this is settled up, I

> shall recommend some of you to act as officiating

> acaryas.

> Tamala Krsna: Is that called rtvik-acarya?

> Prabhupada: Rtvik, yes.

> Satsvarupa: Then what is the relationship of that

> person who gives the

> initiation and the...

> Prabhupada: He's guru. He's guru.

> Satsvarupa: But he does it on your behalf.

> Prabhupada: Yes. That is formality. Because in my

> presence one should not

> become guru, so on my behalf, on my order... Amara

> ajnaya guru hana [Cc.

> Madhya 7.128]. Be actually guru, but by my order.

> Satsvarupa: So they may also be considered your

> disciples.

> Prabhupada: Yes, they are disciples. Why consider?

> Who?

> Tamala Krsna: No, he's asking that these

> rtvik-acaryas, they're officiating,

> giving diksa. Their... The people who they give

> diksa to, whose disciple are

> they?

> Prabhupada: They're his disciple.

> Tamala Krsna: They're his disciple.

> Prabhupada: Who is initiating. He is granddisciple.

> Satsvarupa: Yes.

> Tamala Krsna: That's clear.

> Satsvarupa: Then we have a question concer...

> Prabhupada: When I order, "You become guru," he

> becomes regular guru. That's

> all. He becomes disciple of my disciple. That's it.

>

> Ref. VedaBase => GBC Meets with Srila Prabhupada --

> May 28, 1977, Vrndavana

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

You can also bring karmi evidence to prove that the

Bhagavad-gita is not bonafide. And we are supposed

to take you seriously?

 

 

 

 

 

Madhusudana Dasa [july9th_77 ]

Wednesday, January 19, 2005 7:25 AM

Jahnu (Dvipa das JPS) (Mayapur - IN); Sankarshan Das Adhikari;

Initiations in ISKCON

Re: Ritvik Philosophy If left Unchecked Will be the Death of ISKCON

 

Dear Prabhu's

 

Please accept my humble obeisances.

All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

 

Jahnu dasa when asked

 

"So where is the authorisation for the present ISKCON (so-called)

diksa-gurus?"

 

He replied ..

 

"From the conversation May 28 1977:"

 

My question is, can he first of all prove that this tape is bona-fide?

 

I ask this since the tape which this conversation is taken from was sent for

analysis and the experts report is as follows ....

 

USA (VNN) - The VNN has learned that the National Audio Video Forensic

Laboratory has conducted a forensic test on the so-called "Appointment

Tapes".

The tapes were used by ISKCON officials to support the ISKCON guru

appointments following Srila Prabhupada's departure in 1977. The VNN has

received confirmation from the Forensic Lab that it has in fact conducted

the analysis but was not able to confirm details of the test to VNN due to

client confidentiality.

 

Some Vaishnavas have raised the question whether the "Appointment Tapes" had

been tampered with by some before they were released to the public. The

forensic test report states: "The efficiencies revealed are audible, and are

consistent with EDITING procedures wherein WORDS are ELIMINATED or

REARRANGED to CHANGE the context of what is said." The report further

states: "In conclusion, this recording exhibits strong signs suggestive of

FALSIFICATION".

 

An ISKCON official has told VNN that the tapes are under investigation by an

ISKCON committee and that the committee will release a full report when it

has completed it's research.

 

VNN has received the following letter which has been made public on the

Internet:

 

(begin letter)

National Audio Video Foresnic Laobratory Norman I. Perle, B.C.F.E.,

F.A.C.F.E.

8357 Shirley Avenue - Northeidge, Ca., 91324-4146 Voice - 818/989-0990 - Fax

- 818-993-8550

E-mail: perle (AT) ix (DOT) netcom.com / or

71601.771 (AT) compuserve (DOT) com, or ae293 (AT) LAFN (DOT) org,

Homepage:

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/perle

 

- Board Certified Forensic Examiner: American Board Of Recorded Evidence, -

FELLOW, AMERICAN COLEGE OF FORENSIC EXAMINERS.

 

- Computerized Noise Removal/ Sound Enhancement:

Video/Audio

 

Authentication: Video Enhancements; Voice ID and Comparison. State Of The

Art, Full Service Recorded Evidence Forensic Laboratory.

 

September 22, 1997

 

Attention Harvey Mechanic Esq.

 

TAPE ANALYSIS REPORT

 

On August 26, 1977 I received a standard analog tape recording from your

office for examination. On the label of the cassete I affixed a tamperproof

Security Seal Number 16959 for identification.

 

My assignment was to review and analyze the recording in order to determine

if the content appears to be authentic, in that the words spoken are in

context and appear to be all the words spoken at the moment of time the

recorded event occured. Additionally, there should be no signs of

inappropriate stopping and re-starting of the recorder as well as the other

classifications of signs suggestive of falsification.

 

The analysis procedure included computer waveform analysis, spectrographic

chart analysis, FFT spectrum frequency analysis and a critical aural review

of the audio.

 

EXPLANATION OF ATTACHED SUPPORTIVE EXHIBITS:

 

The attached exhibits are the results of Waveform and Spectrogram Analysis.

The upper window is a Waveform of the acquired audio. This pattern

represents audio relative to time and amplitiude (volume). The large lower

window is a Spectrogram.

 

The Spectrogram represents audio relative to: 1) Time--as shown on the

bottom scale, horizontil axis.

2) Amplitude--as shown as the varying shades of pattern, vertical axis. 3)

Frequency--as shown in the horizontal axis.

 

Each exhibit is annotated with an explanation as to the area of audio

acqusitition, and that is located in the "Title Bar" on top of the Waveform.

A more detailed explanation of the spectogram patterns is located in the

"Title Bar" above each window.

 

EXPLANATION OF EXHIBITS AND CONCULSIONS:

 

EXHIBIT no.1 It is a display of how the sound starts on this recording.

 

Absent is the Recorder Start Signature. Examples of what a Start Signature

looks like can be seen on EXHIBIT no. 3, no. 4, and no. 5. This is

consistent with a recording made from an EDITED master recording.

 

EXHIBIT no. 2 Is a display of the audio located approximately ten seconds

into the recording. The eficiencies revealed are audible, and are consistent

with EDITING procedures wherein WORDS are ELIMINATED or REARRANGED to CHANGE

the context of what is said.

 

EXHIBIT no. 3 is a display of the audio located appoximately eleven minutes,

thiry four seconds into the recording. The deficiences are auible are are

significvantly similay to what one would exprect ot hear and see should the

Master recirdng be an editd version.

 

EXHIBIT no. 4 is a display of the audio located approximately eleven minutes

thirty seven seconds into the recording. This segment is located just after

the area shown in exhibit number three. This deficiency is audible and is

significantly similar to what one would expect to hear and see should the

Master recording be an EDITED version.

 

EXHIBIT no. 5 is a dispaly of the audio located approximately twenty two

minutes, thirty three seconds into the recording. This is the end of the

segment(s).

One can hear, as well as see on the chart, representation strikingly similar

to STOP/RE-STARTS(s) signatures. There is a remanent of audio after these

patterns.

 

EXHIBIT no. 6 is a diplay of the audio located at the end of sound on this

recording. Similar to the beginning (Exhibit #1) there is an absence of the

anticipated stop signature.

 

SUMMARY

 

In conclusion, this recording exhibits strong signs suggestive of

FALSIFICATION. I do not believe that these deficiencies might possibly the

product of some mechanical process or problem within the recording or

duplication process, and I beleive that they exist at what is considered to

be a high degree than that of a coincidence.

 

I strongly recommend that an independent Forensic Analysis be conducted on

the Master recoring in order to determine the authenticity an originality of

the evidence. This analysis requires what is represented as the original

recording and the original tpae recorder upon which this recording was

represented to be be made. The forensic instrumental tests include computer

analysis, FFT spectral analysis, spectrogram chart anaylysis, and

microscopic photograhy of the magnetic field on the original recording.

Additionally, the recordings will be compared for dissimilarities as a

critical listening procedure is performed.

 

These tests are directed to discover (1) if the recording has been edited in

any manner so as to effect the context of the words, (i.e. erasures,

inappropriate starting and re-stating of the recorder), (2) If in fact the

audio material is an original source recording and not a re-recorded

version. The testing would determine the cause of any deficiency within the

audio track and is focused on establishing an opinion as to the integrity

and authenticity of the evidence.

 

If you have any questions, please do not hesitate to call me. Norman I.

Perle (end letter)

 

--- "Jahnu (Dvipa das JPS) (Mayapur - IN)"

<Jahnu (AT) pamho (DOT) net> wrote:

 

>

> > So where is the authorisation for the present

> ISKCON

> > (so-called) diksa-gurus?

>

> From the conversation May 28 1977:

>

> Satsvarupa: By the votes of the present GBC. Then our next question

> concerns initiations in the future, particularly at that time when

> you're no longer with us. We want to know how first and second

> initiation would be conducted.

> Prabhupada: Yes. I shall recommend some of you.

> After this is settled up, I

> shall recommend some of you to act as officiating acaryas.

> Tamala Krsna: Is that called rtvik-acarya?

> Prabhupada: Rtvik, yes.

> Satsvarupa: Then what is the relationship of that person who gives the

> initiation and the...

> Prabhupada: He's guru. He's guru.

> Satsvarupa: But he does it on your behalf.

> Prabhupada: Yes. That is formality. Because in my presence one should

> not become guru, so on my behalf, on my order... Amara ajnaya guru

> hana [Cc.

> Madhya 7.128]. Be actually guru, but by my order.

> Satsvarupa: So they may also be considered your disciples.

> Prabhupada: Yes, they are disciples. Why consider?

> Who?

> Tamala Krsna: No, he's asking that these rtvik-acaryas, they're

> officiating, giving diksa. Their... The people who they give diksa to,

> whose disciple are they?

> Prabhupada: They're his disciple.

> Tamala Krsna: They're his disciple.

> Prabhupada: Who is initiating. He is granddisciple.

> Satsvarupa: Yes.

> Tamala Krsna: That's clear.

> Satsvarupa: Then we have a question concer...

> Prabhupada: When I order, "You become guru," he becomes regular guru.

> That's all. He becomes disciple of my disciple. That's it.

>

> Ref. VedaBase => GBC Meets with Srila Prabhupada -- May 28, 1977,

> Vrndavana

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

> Jahnu dasa when asked

>

> "So where is the authorisation for the present

> ISKCON (so-called) diksa-gurus?"

>

> He replied ..

>

> "From the conversation May 28 1977:"

>

> My question is, can he first of all prove that this

> tape is bona-fide?

 

Yes.

 

> I ask this since the tape which this conversation is

> taken from was sent for analysis and the experts

> report is as follows ....

 

A report from VNN doesn't say much. Let me tell you the real story. The

original tape with the conversation of May 28 is available from the

Bhaktivedanta Archives. As was customary when recording Srila Prabhupada the

tape recorder would frequently be turned on and off, but the passage

containing the bit that I quoted where Prabhupada tells you how he wants

initiations to proceed in his absence, is unbroken by any breaks or pauses.

Thus it is impossible that it could have been doctored or altered.

 

The expert who investigated the tape said that since there was frequent

breaks in the recording of the tape, as a whole it could not be used as

evidence in a court room, but still he had to concede that the relevant

passage of the tape, the one I quoted, is one unbroken recording. Thus it

proves beyond doubt that Prabhupada on the 28 May 1977 told his disciples to

continue the parampara in the traditional way.

[Guest guest]

Dear Prabhu's

 

Please accept my humble obeisances.

All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

 

I had nothing to do with this report. As the report

says, this evidence was brought about by an ISKCON

committee who PAID for this investigation. So if

Sankarshan prabhu has to find fault somewhere. It

should be with the ISKCON committee.

 

"An ISKCON official has told VNN that the tapes are

under investigation by an ISKCON committee and that

the committee will release a full report when it

has completed it's research."

 

Also the truth is valid no matter where it comes from.

 

"It is a qualification of the great thinkers to pick

up the best even from the worst. It is said that the

intelligent man should pick up nectar from a stock of

poison, should accept gold even from a filthy place,

should accept a good and qualified wife even from an

obscure family and should accept a good lesson even

from a man or from a teacher who comes from the

untouchables". [sB 1.5.11]

 

ys

Madhusudana dasa

 

 

 

 

--- Sankarshan Das Adhikari

<sda (AT) UltimateSelfRealization (DOT) com> wrote:

 

> You can also bring karmi evidence to prove that the

> Bhagavad-gita is not bonafide. And we are supposed

> to take you seriously?

>

>

>

>

>

> Madhusudana Dasa [july9th_77 ]

>

> Wednesday, January 19, 2005 7:25 AM

> Jahnu (Dvipa das JPS) (Mayapur - IN); Sankarshan

> Das Adhikari;

> Initiations in ISKCON

> Re: Ritvik Philosophy If left Unchecked

> Will be the Death of ISKCON

>

> Dear Prabhu's

>

> Please accept my humble obeisances.

> All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

>

> Jahnu dasa when asked

>

> "So where is the authorisation for the present

> ISKCON (so-called)

> diksa-gurus?"

>

> He replied ..

>

> "From the conversation May 28 1977:"

>

> My question is, can he first of all prove that this

> tape is bona-fide?

>

> I ask this since the tape which this conversation is

> taken from was sent for

> analysis and the experts report is as follows ....

>

> USA (VNN) - The VNN has learned that the National

> Audio Video Forensic

> Laboratory has conducted a forensic test on the

> so-called "Appointment

> Tapes".

> The tapes were used by ISKCON officials to support

> the ISKCON guru

> appointments following Srila Prabhupada's departure

> in 1977. The VNN has

> received confirmation from the Forensic Lab that it

> has in fact conducted

> the analysis but was not able to confirm details of

> the test to VNN due to

> client confidentiality.

>

> Some Vaishnavas have raised the question whether the

> "Appointment Tapes" had

> been tampered with by some before they were released

> to the public. The

> forensic test report states: "The efficiencies

> revealed are audible, and are

> consistent with EDITING procedures wherein WORDS are

> ELIMINATED or

> REARRANGED to CHANGE the context of what is said."

> The report further

> states: "In conclusion, this recording exhibits

> strong signs suggestive of

> FALSIFICATION".

>

> An ISKCON official has told VNN that the tapes are

> under investigation by an

> ISKCON committee and that the committee will release

> a full report when it

> has completed it's research.

>

> VNN has received the following letter which has been

> made public on the

> Internet:

>

> (begin letter)

> National Audio Video Foresnic Laobratory Norman I.

> Perle, B.C.F.E.,

> F.A.C.F.E.

> 8357 Shirley Avenue - Northeidge, Ca., 91324-4146

> Voice - 818/989-0990 - Fax

> - 818-993-8550

> E-mail: perle (AT) ix (DOT) netcom.com / or

> 71601.771 (AT) compuserve (DOT) com, or ae293 (AT) LAFN (DOT) org,

> Homepage:

> http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/perle

>

> - Board Certified Forensic Examiner: American Board

> Of Recorded Evidence, -

> FELLOW, AMERICAN COLEGE OF FORENSIC EXAMINERS.

>

> - Computerized Noise Removal/ Sound Enhancement:

> Video/Audio

>

> Authentication: Video Enhancements; Voice ID and

> Comparison. State Of The

> Art, Full Service Recorded Evidence Forensic

> Laboratory.

>

> September 22, 1997

>

> Attention Harvey Mechanic Esq.

>

> TAPE ANALYSIS REPORT

>

> On August 26, 1977 I received a standard analog tape

> recording from your

> office for examination. On the label of the cassete

> I affixed a tamperproof

> Security Seal Number 16959 for identification.

>

> My assignment was to review and analyze the

> recording in order to determine

> if the content appears to be authentic, in that the

> words spoken are in

> context and appear to be all the words spoken at the

> moment of time the

> recorded event occured. Additionally, there should

> be no signs of

> inappropriate stopping and re-starting of the

> recorder as well as the other

> classifications of signs suggestive of

> falsification.

>

> The analysis procedure included computer waveform

> analysis, spectrographic

> chart analysis, FFT spectrum frequency analysis and

> a critical aural review

> of the audio.

>

> EXPLANATION OF ATTACHED SUPPORTIVE EXHIBITS:

>

> The attached exhibits are the results of Waveform

> and Spectrogram Analysis.

> The upper window is a Waveform of the acquired

> audio. This pattern

> represents audio relative to time and amplitiude

> (volume). The large lower

> window is a Spectrogram.

>

> The Spectrogram represents audio relative to: 1)

> Time--as shown on the

> bottom scale, horizontil axis.

> 2) Amplitude--as shown as the varying shades of

> pattern, vertical axis. 3)

> Frequency--as shown in the horizontal axis.

>

> Each exhibit is annotated with an explanation as to

> the area of audio

> acqusitition, and that is located in the "Title Bar"

> on top of the Waveform.

> A more detailed explanation of the spectogram

> patterns is located in the

> "Title Bar" above each window.

>

> EXPLANATION OF EXHIBITS AND CONCULSIONS:

>

> EXHIBIT no.1 It is a display of how the sound starts

> on this recording.

>

> Absent is the Recorder Start Signature. Examples of

> what a Start Signature

> looks like can be seen on EXHIBIT no. 3, no. 4, and

> no. 5. This is

> consistent with a recording made from an EDITED

> master recording.

>

> EXHIBIT no. 2 Is a display of the audio located

> approximately ten seconds

> into the recording. The eficiencies revealed are

> audible, and are consistent

> with EDITING procedures wherein WORDS are ELIMINATED

> or REARRANGED to CHANGE

> the context of what is said.

>

> EXHIBIT no. 3 is a display of the audio located

> appoximately eleven minutes,

> thiry four seconds into the recording. The

> deficiences are auible are are

> significvantly similay to what one would exprect ot

> hear and see should the

> Master recirdng be an editd version.

>

> EXHIBIT no. 4 is a display of the audio located

> approximately eleven minutes

> thirty seven seconds into the recording. This

> segment is located just after

> the area shown in exhibit number three. This

> deficiency is audible and is

> significantly similar to what one would expect to

> hear and see should the

> Master recording be an EDITED version.

>

> EXHIBIT no. 5 is a dispaly of the audio located

> approximately twenty two

> minutes, thirty three seconds into the recording.

> This is the end of the

> segment(s).

>

=== message truncated ===

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Prabhu's

 

Please accept my humble obeisances.

All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

 

"....Let me tell you the real story....." Says Jahnu

dasa.

 

I'm listening, but where is your evidence, other than

- because, I say so!

 

ys

Madhusudana dasa

 

 

 

 

--- "Jahnu (Dvipa das JPS) (Mayapur - IN)"

<Jahnu (AT) pamho (DOT) net> wrote:

 

>

> > Jahnu dasa when asked

> >

> > "So where is the authorisation for the present

> > ISKCON (so-called) diksa-gurus?"

> >

> > He replied ..

> >

> > "From the conversation May 28 1977:"

> >

> > My question is, can he first of all prove that

> this

> > tape is bona-fide?

>

> Yes.

>

> > I ask this since the tape which this conversation

> is

> > taken from was sent for analysis and the experts

> > report is as follows ....

>

> A report from VNN doesn't say much. Let me tell you

> the real story. The

> original tape with the conversation of May 28 is

> available from the

> Bhaktivedanta Archives. As was customary when

> recording Srila Prabhupada the

> tape recorder would frequently be turned on and off,

> but the passage

> containing the bit that I quoted where Prabhupada

> tells you how he wants

> initiations to proceed in his absence, is unbroken

> by any breaks or pauses.

> Thus it is impossible that it could have been

> doctored or altered.

>

> The expert who investigated the tape said that since

> there was frequent

> breaks in the recording of the tape, as a whole it

> could not be used as

> evidence in a court room, but still he had to

> concede that the relevant

> passage of the tape, the one I quoted, is one

> unbroken recording. Thus it

> proves beyond doubt that Prabhupada on the 28 May

> 1977 told his disciples to

> continue the parampara in the traditional way.

>

>

-----------------------

> To from this mailing list, send an email

> to:

> Initiations.in.ISKCON-Owner (AT) pamho (DOT) net

>