Guest guest Posted January 17, 2005 Report Share Posted January 17, 2005 Jahnu posted the following in response to my letter to Bhakta Erik: <<<<<From the conversation May 28 1977: Satsvarupa: By the votes of the present GBC. Then our next question concerns initiations in the future, particularly at that time when you're no longer with us. We want to know how first and second initiation would be conducted. Prabhupada: Yes. I shall recommend some of you. After this is settled up, I shall recommend some of you to act as officiating acaryas. Tamala Krsna: Is that called rtvik-acarya? Prabhupada: Rtvik, yes. Satsvarupa: Then what is the relationship of that person who gives the initiation and the... Prabhupada: He's guru. He's guru. Satsvarupa: But he does it on your behalf. Prabhupada: Yes. That is formality. Because in my presence one should not become guru, so on my behalf, on my order... Amara ajnaya guru hana [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. Be actually guru, but by my order. Satsvarupa: So they may also be considered your disciples. Prabhupada: Yes, they are disciples. Why consider? Who? Tamala Krsna: No, he's asking that these rtvik-acaryas, they're officiating, giving diksa. Their... The people who they give diksa to, whose disciple are they? Prabhupada: They're his disciple. Tamala Krsna: They're his disciple. Prabhupada: Who is initiating. He is granddisciple. Satsvarupa: Yes. Tamala Krsna: That's clear. Satsvarupa: Then we have a question concer... Prabhupada: When I order, "You become guru," he becomes regular guru. That's all. He becomes disciple of my disciple. That's it.>>>>> Now; there are 4 different transcriptions of this conversation and there is evidence available from experts that the master tape has defenitely been tampered with. So, this evidence will not really hold stand. Even if it would, in spite of people trying to 'erase evidence" what Srila Prabhupada is stating is the following: 1. The disciples are my disciples; confirmed by the July 9th_ 1977 letter! 2. "that person that gives the initiation refers in the context to Srila Prabhupada, he is the initiator, not the Ritvik! 3."Because in my presence one should not become guru, so on my behalf, on my order... Amara ajnaya guru hana [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. Be actually guru, but by my order." Srila Prabhupada was present then, he is present now, and he will be eternally present, for a VAISHNAVA ACHARYA NEVER DIES. HE LIVES IN HIS WORDS AND HIS FOLLOWERS LIVE WITH HIM. 4. - When I order, "You become guru," he becomes regular guru - When did Srila Prabhupada order them then to become guru? He never did.. For Srila Prabhupada IS THE ACHARYA AND DIKSA GURU OF ISKCONFOREVER........................ whether people like it or not.........I think most of suffering mankind will be very glad to know!!!!!!!!!!!! IRM is trying to save ISKCON more embarrassment, but it looks like they are bent on being humiliated, without ever becoming ready to give up their false "assuptions". your servant, Krishnapriya dasi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 Dear Prabhu's Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. Ramakanta prabhu writes .... "If you are still convinced of your argument, then please note that Srila Prabhupada said "I am" and not "I will be"." In reference to the following quote from Srila Prabhupada .... "Yes, I am the Spiritual Master of this institution, and ALL the members of the Society, they're supposed to be MY disciples." I don't understand what Ramakanta prabhu is trying to say here. It WAS 1968, and Srila Prabhupada was speaking in the present tense. 1] So at what point in time did Srila Prabhupada STOP being the spiritual master of ISKCON? 2] WHY? 3] Where is the authorisation for his [so-called] successors? "One should take initiation from a bona fide spiritual master coming in the disciplic succession, who is authorised by his predecessor spiritual master. This is called diksa -vidhana."(S.B. 4.8.54,purport) Ramakanta prabhu also writes .... "Srila Prabhupada several times said that we should compare guru with sadhu and sastra." Can you give 1 example of this? Could be prophetic words of wisdom here. Srila Prabhupada warning us of the bogus gurus which would appear in ISKCON after his departure and warning us - be careful - compare them to sadhu and sastra. "...sometimes a spiritual master is not properly authorised to initiate and only on his own initiative becomes a spiritual master, he may be carried away by an accumulation of wealth and a large number of disciples." (NOD p116 ) Would Ramakanta prabhu like a list of (so called) gurus in ISKCON who have been "carried away by an accumulation of wealth and a large number of disciples"? ys Madhusudana dasa --- "Ramakanta (das) HKS (PAMHO.NET SysOp) (Zurich - CH)" <Ramakanta.HKS (AT) pamho (DOT) net> wrote: > Dear Krishna Priya Mataji, PAMHO. AGTSP! > > > Now, as early as in 1968, Srila Prabhupada said > the following: > > > > Yes, I am the Spiritual Master of this > institution, > > and ALL the members of the Society, they're > supposed > > to be MY disciples. > > This argument is as silly as following argument. So > let's dump it. > > "When you look at the list of names (disciplic > succession) at the end of the > introduction to the Bhagavad-gita, you will see that > there is no name listed > after Srila Prabhupada's. So you have the evidence > right there in Srila > Prabhupada's book (which is the law book for the > next ten thousend years) > that none of Srila Prabhupada's disciples are > initiating gurus and that > Srila Prabhupada is the only initiating guru in > ISKCON." > > If you are still convinced of your argument, then > please note that Srila > Prabhupada said "I am" and not "I will be". > > > This has been explaine in detail and in full by > Krishnakant in "The Final > > Order", which you can download from the site: > www.iskconirm.com---- > > Srila Prabhupada several times said that we should > compare guru with sadhu > and sastra. He never said that we should read > Krishnakant's paper. > Krishnakant is not authorized by Srila Prabhupada to > explain us his > instructions. > > ys Ramakanta dasa > > ----------------------- > To from this mailing list, send an email > to: > Initiations.in.ISKCON-Owner (AT) pamho (DOT) net > Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail./mail_250 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 Dear Madhusudana Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP! > "Yes, I am the Spiritual Master of this institution, > and ALL the members of the Society, they're supposed > to be MY disciples." > > I don't understand what Ramakanta prabhu is trying to > say here. It WAS 1968, and Srila Prabhupada was > speaking in the present tense. Oh, yeah. And the list of names (disciplic succession) at the end of the introduction to the Bhagavad-gita stops with Srila Prabhupada's name. So that is the proof that the ritviks are right. > 1] So at what point in time did Srila Prabhupada STOP > being the spiritual master of ISKCON? On his departure, like the previous gurus. > 2] WHY? Because he did not want to introduce something not confirmed by sadhu and sastra. > 3] Where is the authorisation for his [so-called] successors? As long as you have following two rules, there is no use to anwers this question. Rule #1: Srila Prabhupada has not authorized anyone to be diksa guru. Rule #2: If someone presents an evidence that Srila Prabhupada did authorized someone to be diksa guru, then automatically rule #1 comes into force. > Ramakanta prabhu also writes .... > "Srila Prabhupada several times said that we should > compare guru with sadhu and sastra." > > Can you give 1 example of this? On November 24, 1966 Srila Prabhupada said: "You have to corroborate whether guru, what guru is speaking, whether it is there in the scripture; what scripture is speaking, whether that is in the character of guru, or in the sadhu, saintly persons, or spiritual master. So you have to always make comparison with three things: sadhu, sastra, guru." (CC Madhya 20.119-121 lecture) > Would Ramakanta prabhu like a list of (so called) > gurus in ISKCON who have been "carried away by an > accumulation of wealth and a large number of > disciples"? No, I am not at all interested in a list of bad qualities someone else sees. ys Ramakanta dasa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 > Would Ramakanta prabhu like a list of (so called) > gurus in ISKCON who have been "carried away by an > accumulation of wealth and a large number of > disciples"? What would be the use of that? What would it prove? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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