Guest guest Posted January 18, 2005 Report Share Posted January 18, 2005 Hare Krsna, Please accept my humble obeisances. All gloriest to Srila Prabhupada. First of all thanks to the devotees who responded to my questions. I must admit disappointment to being counter-questioned however. If you don't know the answer it would be best to just admit it instead of trying to side track the issue. When I came into this debate I expected to see intelligent responses based on Srila Prabhupada's instructions. I see such responses based on Prabhupada's instructions from participants such as Deepak, Krishnapriya and July 9th but from many others all I see are things that translate out to "Because I say so!" School yard tactics. Srila Prabhupada carefully instructed how He desired Iskcon to be managed. I do not find any instructions anywhere that the ritvik system was to abruptly end and suddenly eleven and now over one hundred self realized acaryas would manifest like magic. It seems to me that such an important instruction would be posted in very large print on every temple wall and in every publication but I can't find it and when I ask for help all I get is a rather curt snobby retort. Please refrain from such childish "Cuz" tactics and answer my question. The ritviks are basing everything they say on exact quotes (which I have been able to substaniate in my folio) so why can't pro-diksa gurus in Iskcon crowd do the same? I entered this undecided and open minded to see both sides. But I must say as of right now it appears that Iskcon is losing ground. your servant Bhakta Erik Dear Bhakta Eric, PAMHO. AGTSP! >Where does Srila Prabhupada say the ritvik system He initiated in Iskcon >was to end when He left our material vision? Counter question: Where did Srila Prabhupada say that the ritvik system that he introduced in 1973 (and modified a little on July 9, 1977) was to be continued on his departure? On what date did he change the temporary ritvik system into a permanent one? ys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 18, 2005 Report Share Posted January 18, 2005 Hare Krsna Bhakta Erik, Like you, I just listen to all the responses (when I have time) and I don't have a lot of bias one way or the other. However, maybe there is no definitive answer, there may be a right or wrong answer, but neither are definitive. Every answer we have heard, I think has been passionate and sincere, but has had to have some element of inference in order to arrive at a conclusion. The inference is always based upon some element of personal understanding of Krsna Consciousness and belief in Srila Prabhupada's desires with the ability to quote shastra in defense of one's opinion. When there is another Jagad Guru in the world like Srila Prabhupada, he will be self-efffulgent in the manner of Prabhupada, in the meantime, the debate will continue. Maybe 100 years from now, the argument may be trivial and then 1,000 years from now it will affect the history of ISKCON, who knows. In the meantime, I am sure both parties will suggest that the correct course is to chant Hare Krsna. Please don't ask me for a quote, but I believe that Srila Prabhupada wanted people to surrender to Krsna even more than he wanted people to surrender to him, I suggest you judge any current guru, either diksa or siksa by that kind of standard. Instead of being disappointed, take pleasure in the huge amount of Krsna Conscioiusness that can be learned in an argument of this kind. I know Srila Prabhupada did not want people to argue with him, but in my mind I always have. So, it kind of gives me some feeling of normality to see other people so desirous to argue their points. Joey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 18, 2005 Report Share Posted January 18, 2005 Dear Eric, I sense you are a bit of a wolf in sheep's clothing when you state you entered the frey open-minded. Better just to admit that you were a rtvik all along, rather then lie about your so called objectivity. I take particular difference to your comments about the "magical appearance of over 100 self realized acharyas". A word to the wise, which apparently you are not: Be very careful how you enter these discussions. If your intent is to join the guru bashing bandwagon such as Krishnapriya and think that is service to Srila Prabhupada, you can kiss your bhakti creeper goodbye. What happened to your so called humility? And why does an uninitiated bhakta feel he is more advanced then both Prabhupada disciples and grand disciples? Rtvikism breeds contempt for other Vaishnavas and destroys the quality of humility. Without humility, there is no possibility of developing any devotion. I suggest you immediately stop lying about your real affiliation and start showing some respect in your dealings. Hare Krsna, Mahashakti dasa --- BhaktaErik (AT) cs (DOT) com wrote: > Hare Krsna, > > Please accept my humble obeisances. All gloriest to > Srila Prabhupada. > > First of all thanks to the devotees who responded to > my questions. > > I must admit disappointment to being > counter-questioned however. If you > don't know the answer it would be best to just admit > it instead of trying to > side > track the issue. > > When I came into this debate I expected to see > intelligent responses based on > Srila Prabhupada's instructions. I see such > responses based on Prabhupada's > instructions from participants such as Deepak, > Krishnapriya and July 9th but > from many others all I see are things that translate > out to "Because I say so!" > > School yard tactics. > > Srila Prabhupada carefully instructed how He desired > Iskcon to be managed. I > do not find any instructions anywhere that the > ritvik system was to abruptly > end and suddenly eleven and now over one hundred > self realized acaryas would > manifest like magic. > > It seems to me that such an important instruction > would be posted in very > large print on every temple wall and in every > publication but I can't find it > and > when I ask for help all I get is a rather curt > snobby retort. > > Please refrain from such childish "Cuz" tactics and > answer my question. The > ritviks are basing everything they say on exact > quotes (which I have been > able to substaniate in my folio) so why can't > pro-diksa gurus in Iskcon crowd > do > the same? > > I entered this undecided and open minded to see both > sides. But I must say > as of right now it appears that Iskcon is losing > ground. > > your servant > Bhakta Erik > > > > Dear Bhakta Eric, PAMHO. AGTSP! > > >Where does Srila Prabhupada say the ritvik system > He initiated in Iskcon > >was to end when He left our material vision? > > Counter question: Where did Srila Prabhupada say > that the ritvik system that > he introduced in 1973 (and modified a little on July > 9, 1977) was to be > continued on his departure? On what date did he > change the temporary ritvik > system into a permanent one? > > ys > > > > ----------------------- > To from this mailing list, send an email > to: > Initiations.in.ISKCON-Owner (AT) pamho (DOT) net > Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. http://info.mail./mail_250 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 18, 2005 Report Share Posted January 18, 2005 --- BhaktaErik (AT) cs (DOT) com wrote: > Typical response. Proper response. msd Sorry I thought this discussion > would be different than > other forums and that questions would be answered. Both sides have been asking and answering questions for many months now. You said you read all the posts. msd > > All I want to know is where is the instruction from > Prabhupada to end the > ritvik order. Like your mister innocent and that question has not already been discussed ad nauseum. Please! msd Don't get angry if you do not know > the answer. Don't get angry if I tell you that the answer has been presented on multiple occassions, by myself and many others, and your too blind to accept it. msd I don't so I come > here to ask. We've told you. Now do as you please. msd > > It truly appears that no such instruction exists or > someone would have come > up with the reference by now. Silly hackneyed statement. Quite frankly, the onus of proof is in your court, not ours. We are using the diksha system in ISKCON. Prove to us that the rtvik system was what Srila Prabhupada wanted. Good luck. msd > > I do not intend to bash anyone nor have anyone bash > me. Well, your sure starting off on the wrong foot. msd > > > > > In a message dated 1/17/2005 7:21:26 PM Pacific > Standard Time, > mahashaktidasa writes: > > Dear Eric, > > > > I sense you are a bit of a wolf in sheep's > clothing > > when you state you entered the frey open-minded. > > Better just to admit that you were a rtvik all > along, > > rather then lie about your so called objectivity. > I > > take particular difference to your comments about > the > > "magical appearance of over 100 self realized > > acharyas". > > A word to the wise, which apparently you are not: > Be > > very careful how you enter these discussions. If > your > > intent is to join the guru bashing bandwagon such > as > > Krishnapriya and think that is service to Srila > > Prabhupada, you can kiss your bhakti creeper > goodbye. > > > > What happened to your so called humility? And why > > does an uninitiated bhakta feel he is more > advanced > > then both Prabhupada disciples and grand > disciples? > > Rtvikism breeds contempt for other Vaishnavas and > > destroys the quality of humility. Without > humility, > > there is no possibility of developing any > devotion. I > > suggest you immediately stop lying about your real > > affiliation and start showing some respect in your > > dealings. > > > > Hare Krsna, > > > > Mahashakti dasa > > > --- BhaktaErik (AT) cs (DOT) com wrote: > Typical response. Sorry I thought this discussion > would be different than > other forums and that questions would be answered. > > All I want to know is where is the instruction from > Prabhupada to end the > ritvik order. Don't get angry if you do not know > the answer. I don't so I come > here to ask. > > It truly appears that no such instruction exists or > someone would have come > up with the reference by now. > > I do not intend to bash anyone nor have anyone bash > me. > > > > > In a message dated 1/17/2005 7:21:26 PM Pacific > Standard Time, > mahashaktidasa writes: > > Dear Eric, > > > > I sense you are a bit of a wolf in sheep's > clothing > > when you state you entered the frey open-minded. > > Better just to admit that you were a rtvik all > along, > > rather then lie about your so called objectivity. > I > > take particular difference to your comments about > the > > "magical appearance of over 100 self realized > > acharyas". > > A word to the wise, which apparently you are not: > Be > > very careful how you enter these discussions. If > your > > intent is to join the guru bashing bandwagon such > as > > Krishnapriya and think that is service to Srila > > Prabhupada, you can kiss your bhakti creeper > goodbye. > > > > What happened to your so called humility? And why > > does an uninitiated bhakta feel he is more > advanced > > then both Prabhupada disciples and grand > disciples? > > Rtvikism breeds contempt for other Vaishnavas and > > destroys the quality of humility. Without > humility, > > there is no possibility of developing any > devotion. I > > suggest you immediately stop lying about your real > > affiliation and start showing some respect in your > > dealings. > > > > Hare Krsna, > > > > Mahashakti dasa > > > Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail./mail_250 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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