Guest guest Posted January 18, 2005 Report Share Posted January 18, 2005 > First of all thanks to the devotees who responded to my questions. > > I must admit disappointment to being counter-questioned however. If you > don't know the answer it would be best to just admit it instead of trying > to side track the issue. Ritvikvadis are famous for side tracking the issue. Read the conversation below, and then tell me why you would listen to someone like KK Desai rather than Srila Prabhupada's direct words to some of his most intimate disciples. Do you think you could explain that, without sidetracking the issue, for the edification of us all? >From the conversation May 28 1977: Satsvarupa: By the votes of the present GBC. Then our next question concerns initiations in the future, particularly at that time when you're no longer with us. We want to know how first and second initiation would be conducted. Prabhupada: Yes. I shall recommend some of you. After this is settled up, I shall recommend some of you to act as officiating acaryas. Tamala Krsna: Is that called rtvik-acarya? Prabhupada: Rtvik, yes. Satsvarupa: Then what is the relationship of that person who gives the initiation and the... Prabhupada: He's guru. He's guru. Satsvarupa: But he does it on your behalf. Prabhupada: Yes. That is formality. Because in my presence one should not become guru, so on my behalf, on my order... Amara ajnaya guru hana [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. Be actually guru, but by my order. Satsvarupa: So they may also be considered your disciples. Prabhupada: Yes, they are disciples. Why consider? Who? Tamala Krsna: No, he's asking that these rtvik-acaryas, they're officiating, giving diksa. Their... The people who they give diksa to, whose disciple are they? Prabhupada: They're his disciple. Tamala Krsna: They're his disciple. Prabhupada: Who is initiating. He is granddisciple. Satsvarupa: Yes. Tamala Krsna: That's clear. Satsvarupa: Then we have a question concer... Prabhupada: When I order, "You become guru," he becomes regular guru. That's all. He becomes disciple of my disciple. That's it. Ref. VedaBase => GBC Meets with Srila Prabhupada -- May 28, 1977, Vrndavana Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 18, 2005 Report Share Posted January 18, 2005 Mahashakti say's: Quote: "Silly hackneyed statement. Quite frankly, the onus of proof is in your court, not ours. We are using the diksha system in ISKCON. Prove to us that the rtvik system was what Srila Prabhupada wanted. Good luck. msd " IRM has already proven this! The Onus is on THEM to prove otherwise!! on behalf of Bh Marc, KPdd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 Yes, Jahnu, I have read this order from Prabhupada many times over. What is your point? He says, "When I order...become guru". Where is the order for these ritviks to become diksa guru? In a message dated 1/18/2005 1:22:03 AM Pacific Standard Time, Jahnu (AT) pamho (DOT) net writes: > >First of all thanks to the devotees who responded to my questions. > > > >I must admit disappointment to being counter-questioned however. If you > >don't know the answer it would be best to just admit it instead of trying > >to side track the issue. > > Ritvikvadis are famous for side tracking the issue. Read the conversation > below, and then tell me why you would listen to someone like KK Desai rather > than Srila Prabhupada's direct words to some of his most intimate disciples. > > Do you think you could explain that, without sidetracking the issue, for the > edification of us all? > > > From the conversation May 28 1977: > > Satsvarupa: By the votes of the present GBC. Then our next question concerns > initiations in the future, particularly at that time when you're no longer > with us. We want to know how first and second initiation would be conducted. > Prabhupada: Yes. I shall recommend some of you. After this is settled up, I > shall recommend some of you to act as officiating acaryas. > Tamala Krsna: Is that called rtvik-acarya? > Prabhupada: Rtvik, yes. > Satsvarupa: Then what is the relationship of that person who gives the > initiation and the... > Prabhupada: He's guru. He's guru. > Satsvarupa: But he does it on your behalf. > Prabhupada: Yes. That is formality. Because in my presence one should not > become guru, so on my behalf, on my order... Amara ajnaya guru hana [Cc. > Madhya 7.128]. Be actually guru, but by my order. > Satsvarupa: So they may also be considered your disciples. > Prabhupada: Yes, they are disciples. Why consider? Who? > Tamala Krsna: No, he's asking that these rtvik-acaryas, they're officiating, > giving diksa. Their... The people who they give diksa to, whose disciple are > they? > Prabhupada: They're his disciple. > Tamala Krsna: They're his disciple. > Prabhupada: Who is initiating. He is granddisciple. > Satsvarupa: Yes. > Tamala Krsna: That's clear. > Satsvarupa: Then we have a question concer... > Prabhupada: When I order, "You become guru," he becomes regular guru. That's > all. He becomes disciple of my disciple. That's it. > > Ref. VedaBase => GBC Meets with Srila Prabhupada -- May 28, 1977, Vrndavana Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 With all due respects, mahashakti dasa, I don't see any of the ritviks doing any guru bashing. They are all being very sincere and respectful to Srila Prabhupada. What gurus are they bashing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 > Yes, Jahnu, I have read this order from Prabhupada many times over. What > is your point? He says, "When I order...become guru". Where is the order > for these ritviks to become diksa guru? Anyway, as I said, if you will rather learn Vaishnava philosophy from the likes of KK Desai than from the devotees of ISKCON, go right ahead. Who can stop you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 > With all due respects, mahashakti dasa, I don't see any of the ritviks > doing any guru bashing. They are all being very sincere and respectful to > Srila Prabhupada. You mean like in the magazine, Back To Prabhupada? You obviously don't know Srila Prabhupada very well. If you did, you'd know that he would not be pleased, to say the least, if presented with a magazine with him on the cover and inside only scandals, slander and filth. > What gurus are they bashing? Have you had a look at the magazine? If you are really so innocent and uinformed as you pretend to be, why are you so eager to dictate Vaishnava siddhanta on such an important subject matter as guru-tattva to those who are your superiors? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 Dear Prabhu's Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. Jahnu dasa writes .. "why are you so eager to dictate Vaishnava siddhanta on such an important subject matter as guru-tattva to those who are your superiors?" If you vapu vadis are so superior as you claim, then how come you are unable to defeat Bhakta Krishna Kanta Desai. He's ONLY a little guy, a mere BHAKTA, never even been on the BHAKTA PROGRAM, yet he has defeated all the ISKCON BIG BIG GURUS and their numerous sycophants. So in actuallity it is difficult to see any superiority as claimed by Jahnu dasa. Maybe he's been reading too many of HH Bhakti Tirtha Swami's books and is now living in another, somewhat etherical dimension. ys Madhusudana dasa --- "Jahnu (Dvipa das JPS) (Mayapur - IN)" <Jahnu (AT) pamho (DOT) net> wrote: > > With all due respects, mahashakti dasa, I don't > see any of the ritviks > > doing any guru bashing. They are all being very > sincere and respectful to > > Srila Prabhupada. > > You mean like in the magazine, Back To Prabhupada? > You obviously don't know > Srila Prabhupada very well. If you did, you'd know > that he would not be > pleased, to say the least, if presented with a > magazine with him on the > cover and inside only scandals, slander and filth. > > > What gurus are they bashing? > > Have you had a look at the magazine? If you are > really so innocent and > uinformed as you pretend to be, why are you so eager > to dictate Vaishnava > siddhanta on such an important subject matter as > guru-tattva to those who > are your superiors? > > ----------------------- > To from this mailing list, send an email > to: > Initiations.in.ISKCON-Owner (AT) pamho (DOT) net > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 In a message dated 1/19/2005 5:00:25 AM Pacific Standard Time, Jahnu (AT) pamho (DOT) net writes: > Have you had a look at the magazine? If you are really so innocent and > uinformed as you pretend to be, why are you so eager to dictate Vaishnava > siddhanta on such an important subject matter as guru-tattva to those who > are your superiors? > stop speculating, Janu, I have been around a lot longer than you think. I choose a fake name to keep my identity safe and also to keep from being harrassed at my local temple. Look who is dictating. Until you or any other iskcon member can answer the very simple questions this bantering will be ignored. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 20, 2005 Report Share Posted January 20, 2005 > stop speculating, Janu, I have been around a lot longer than you think. > I choose a fake name to keep my identity safe and also to keep from being > harrassed at my local temple. Yeah right. > Look who is dictating. > > Until you or any other iskcon member can answer the very simple questions > this bantering will be ignored. I knew you were lying when you said you had never heard from KK Desai or read TFO. You need to check your loyalties. If you want to be associated with demons and kalichelas go right ahead. If you will listen to someone like KK Desai, who never did ANYTHING for Srila Prabhupada, and who is the editor of a most offensive, demonic magazine, rather than hearing from Prabhupada's dedicated followers, then go right ahead. Who can stop you? If you think that a magazine like BTP is a Vaishnava publication, you need a crash course in Vaishnava philosophy. That means you haven't even understood the very basics of Prabhupada's teachings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 20, 2005 Report Share Posted January 20, 2005 Sorry jahnu but I am not lying about anything except my name to keep thugs like you off my back when I want to see the deities that Srila Prabhupada installed at the local temple. You certainly do speculate a lot. Just like you speculate that Prabhupada wanted His ritvik system to end. You need to stop trying to tell everyone what you think Prabhupada really meant to say and what you think He forgot to say. You are starting to embarrass yourself. Until such a time that someone here presents the order from Srila Prabhupada to stop the Ritvik system that He installed then I see no reason to respond to you or anyone else. So since that is not going to happen. Goodbye! Bhakta Erik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 20, 2005 Report Share Posted January 20, 2005 Dear Bhakta Erik (or whoever you are), PAMHO. AGTSP! Please refute all my four proofs that Srila Prabhupada did not indroduce a permanent ritvik system before you again say that he introduced a permanent ritvik system. ys Ramakanta dasa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 20, 2005 Report Share Posted January 20, 2005 > Sorry jahnu but I am not lying about anything except my name to keep thugs > like you off my back when I want to see the deities that Srila Prabhupada > installed at the local temple. BtW, do you have the address of Janesvara das in Alachua? > You certainly do speculate a lot. Just like you speculate that Prabhupada > wanted His ritvik system to end. You are the one who speculates. I am the one following Prabhupada and the acharyas. You are the one who keeps beating a dead horse by insisting on this ridiculous idea, even after it has been completely shunned by the whole Vaishnava community. In the face of all evidence you maintain the nonsensical speculation that one, single flimsy letter constitutes the whole siddhanta from Prabhupada of how he wanted something as important as initiations to go on in his absence. What is that, if not a speculation? And who came up with this idea? - a criminal like Nityananda who hates the GBC because they dared to condemn his activities with Robin George, the very same person who later initiated the poison rumors, and a lawyer like KK Desai, who by his words and activities has proven that his sole aim is to undermine faith in Prabhupada and his disciple. You see, you don't publish a sleazy magazine about Prabhupada's disciples and send them out to all temples in the world unless your direct aim is to undermine everyone's faith in these disciples, and by undermining the faith in Srila Prabhupada's disciples you automatically undermine the faith in him. Do you really not see what the ritviks are doing? If the ritviks have their way, in the future Prabhupada will be remembered as the guru whose disciples deceived him and maybe poisoned him, IOW he'll be remembered as any other guru from the 60s like Rajneesh, Gurumaharaji, and a host of others who were all ridden with scandals and fall downs and whom therefore no one takes seriously. Thus, even though ritvikvadis claim to be the true followers of Prabhupada, their real mission is to destroy Prabhupada's reputation. That's how evil they are. Now, you may just be an innocent follower, who are uninformed and doesn't see the real picture, or you may have your own reasons for following, but still, if you insist on following the ritviks they'll drag you down with them. > You need to stop trying to tell everyone what you think Prabhupada really > meant to say and what you think He forgot to say. You are starting to > embarrass yourself. I guess that depends on the viewpoint. From my point of view it would be so embarrassing to cling to a speculation like ritvikvada in the face of the whole Vaishnava community. > Until such a time that someone here presents the order from Srila > Prabhupada to stop the Ritvik system that He installed then I see no > reason to respond to you or anyone else. So since that is not going to > happen. Goodbye! You don't even know Vaishnava siddhanta. It is no where stated in sastra that a disciple needs the order of his spiritual master to initiate his own disciple after his guru's departure. It is a given. That's how parampara continues. Prabhupada only told his disciples that they needed his order while he was still present, because that is the etiquette. As soon as he'd departed initiations would go on in the traditional way. Now, ritvikvadis can rant and rave about the faults of ISKCON and it's fallen gurus, but the simple fact is that whether they like it or not the gurus in ISKCON are continuing the Gaudiya-vaishnava sampradaya after Prabhupada. Some of them have fallen down, but others have not, and they continue to perpetuate the parampara system. And I think it is going to take more than a lawyer like KK. Desai to stop it. The dogs may bark but the caravan goes on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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