Guest guest Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 Dear Prabhu Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. So are you now claiming that this quote from the Nectar of Devotion (written about 500 years ago by Rupa Goswami) is how YOU got your authorization to be a diksa guru? Also "one who follows strictly the order of Lord Caitanya to preach Krishna consciousness IS a spiritual master" - yes but don't forget - diksa guru MUST be authorised by the previous acarya. If "a child who is playing with his toy firetruck" can defeat you so easily. Then just see YOUR position! Self-realization? ys Madhusudana dasa --- Sankarshan Das Adhikari <sda (AT) BackToHome (DOT) Com> wrote: > Not only does Srila Prabhupada state in the Nectar > of Devotion that one who > has > controlled his six pushings is permitted to become a > spiritual master. He > also > states in a lecture that one who follows strictly > the order of Lord Caitanya > to > preach Krishna consciousness IS a spiritual master. > > > And the ritviks bring the mundane dictionary that > "can = be able to", and > they > think they are defeating us. This reminds me of a > child who is playing with > his > toy firetruck thinking that he is driving a real > firetruck. > > > > failure (AT) pamho (DOT) net [failure (AT) pamho (DOT) net] > On Behalf Of Madhusudana > Dasa > Wednesday, January 19, 2005 6:06 AM > Initiations in ISKCON; Sankarsana (das) ACBSP > (Austin, Texas - USA) > Re: Don't Break the Disciplic Succesion > > Dear Prabhu's > > Please accept my humble obeisances. > All glories to Srila Prabhupada. > > Sankarshan prabhu asks.... > "Does this mean that submissive spirit gives you the > ability to understand > the Bhagavad-gita but not the authorization to do > so?" > > If Sankarshan prabhu **can** demonstrate by > reference to Srila Prabhupada's > teachings. Where it is stated that authorisation is > required to understand > Bhagavad > - gita. Then I will know how to respond to this > challenge of his. Until that > happens, quite frankly, his challenge seems a bit > off - topic, that is, of > course. > > My dictionary defines can as follows ... > can = Be able to, have the ability to > Is this acceptable? > > ys > Madhusudana dasa > > > > > > --- "Sankarsana (das) ACBSP (Austin, Texas - USA)" > <Sankarsana.ACBSP (AT) pamho (DOT) net> wrote: > > > This "can doesn't mean can" argument is not valid. > > This Prabhu wants to bring in UK driving > requirements to support his > > case. Just see. Instead of using raksasa > so-called civilization to > > support our case we should revert to Srila > Prabhupada. > > > > Here's how Srila Prabhupadas uses the word "can": > > > > "with that submissive spirit we can understand the > Bhagavad-gita." > > > > Does this mean that submissive spirit gives you > the ability to > > understand the Bhagavad-gita but not the > authorization to do so? > > > > I challenge this Prabhu to show substantial cases > from Srila > > Prabhupada's teachings in which his use of can > means ability but no > > authorization. > > > > Guru Parampara ki jaya! May it continue unbroken > for at least the > > next 10,000 years! > > > > > > > > > > failure (AT) pamho (DOT) net [failure (AT) pamho (DOT) net] > On Behalf Of > > Madhusudana Dasa > > Saturday, January 15, 2005 5:22 PM > > Sankarshan Das Adhikari; Initiations in ISKCON > > Re: Ritvik Philosophy If left Unchecked > Will be the Death of > > ISKCON > > > > In reply to Sankarshan prabhu: > > Who has quoted ..... > > > > "Whatever position one may have, if he is fully > conversant with the > > science of Krishna, Krishna consciousness, he can > become a bona fide > > spiritual master, initiator or teacher of the > science." TLC, Chapter > > 31 > > > > My reply is the same as it was for the last quote > you posted..... > > > > Here again the key words are *he can become*. > > > > How is the instruction that something can happen > the same as > > authorising that it must? e.g. one can drive a car > once one is > > 17 years old (in the UK). > > But separate qualification and then authorisation > is also required. > > It is not automatic. Qualification and > authorisation must also be > > there. > > Srila Prabhupada taught that specific > authorisation from the > > predecessor acarya was essential before anyone > could act as a diksa > > guru: > > > > "One should take initiation from a bona fide > spiritual master coming > > in the disciplic succession, who is authorised by > his predecessor > > spiritual master. > > This is called diksa -vidhana." (S.B. 4.8.54, > > purport) > > > > The ISKCON movement is based on the teachings of > Srila Prabhupada, and > > not the GBC. If one wants to drive a car, then > this is possible for > > all, but only with > > *qualification* and *authorisation*. Ironically, > these self-appointed > > gurus have no authorisation to act independently > as initiating gurus. > > I can prove this, as there are no gurus in any > bonafide sampradaya > > that have been voted into the position of a guru. > I quote from Srila > > Prabhupada: > > > > "Guru cannot be self-made. No. There is no such > single instance > > throughout the whole Vedic literature. And > nowadays, so many rascals, > > they are becoming guru without any authority. That > is not guru. You > > must be authorised. Evam parampara-praptam imam > ra... As soon as the > > parampara is...kalena yogo nasta parantapa, > immediately finished. The > > spiritual potency finished. > > You can dress like a guru, you can talk big, big > words, but it will > > never be effective." (Srila Prabhupada Lecture, > 27th February 1977, > > Mayapur, > > India) > > > > So where is the authorisation for the present > ISKCON > > (so-called) diksa-gurus? > > > > > > btw. I must compliment you on a rather astute > observation - that IRM > > (Ritvik > > Philosophy) will be the death of the *MAYA* ISKCON > which YOU > > steadfastly represent. > > However let me assure you that ISKCON WILL > flourish for the next 9,500 > > years, despite what certain demons try to do - to > the contrary. > > > > ysmsd > > > > > > > > > === message truncated === Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 20, 2005 Report Share Posted January 20, 2005 Dear Madhusudana Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP! > So are you now claiming that this quote from the > Nectar of Devotion (written about 500 years ago by > Rupa Goswami) is how YOU got your authorization to be > a diksa guru? > > Also "one who follows strictly the order of Lord > Caitanya to preach Krishna consciousness IS a > spiritual master" - yes but don't forget - diksa guru > MUST be authorised by the previous acarya. Srila Prabhupada said (in English) "is permitted to make disciples". If you want to ignore Srila Prabhupada's statement, then go ahead. ys Ramakanta dasa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 20, 2005 Report Share Posted January 20, 2005 Dear Prabhu's Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. The issue on this thread is whether this quote [NOD 7] is authorization for the current 80+ ISKCON diksa gurus. “The purport is that one should not accept as a spiritual master someone who is fool number one, who has no direction according to the scriptural injunctions, whose character is doubtful, who does not follow the principles of devotional service, or who has not conquered the influence of the six sense-gratifying agents. The six agents of sense gratification are the tongue, the genitals, the belly, anger, the mind and words. Anyone who has practiced controlling these six is permitted to make disciples all over the world. To accept such a spiritual master is the crucial point for advancement in spiritual life. One who is fortunate enough to come under the shelter of a bona fide spiritual master is sure to traverse the path of spiritual salvation without any doubt. [NOD 7]" Ramakanta prabhu is claiming that since Srila Prabhupada is saying “is permitted” in this quote, therefore this is authorization for the current ISKCON scenario. However The Nectar of Devotion is a summary, by Srila Prabhupada, of Srila Rupa Goswami’s Bhakti Rasamrita Sindhu. So whatever Srila Prabhupada is writing in the Nectar of Devotion is simple a summary of what Rupa Goswami has written 500 years ago! This is verified by looking at The Nectar of Instruction text 1 (also by Srila Rupa Goswami) which is the same as the NOD7 quote given by Ramakanta prabhu. vaco vegam manasah krodha-vegam jihva-vegam udaropastha-vegam etan vegan yo visaheta dhirah sarvam apimam prthivim sa sisyat TRANSLATION A sober person who can tolerate the urge to speak, the mind’s demands, the actions of anger and the urges of the tongue, belly and genitals is qualified to make disciples all over the world. However this is not acceptable to justify diksa guru authorisation within present day ISKCON. Since the principle of diksa –vidhana specifies that the authorization comes from the PREDECESSOR ACARYA. As mention previously Srila Rupa Goswami WAS NOT the predecessor acarya for the current ISKCON (so-called) gurus. "One should take initiation from a bona fide spiritual master coming in the disciplic succession, who is authorised by his predecessor spiritual master. This is called diksa -vidhana." (S.B. 4.8.54, purport) ys Madhusudana dasa --- "Ramakanta (das) HKS (PAMHO.NET SysOp) (Zurich - CH)" <Ramakanta.HKS (AT) pamho (DOT) net> wrote: > Dear Madhusudana Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP! > > > So are you now claiming that this quote from the > > Nectar of Devotion (written about 500 years ago by > > Rupa Goswami) is how YOU got your authorization to > be > > a diksa guru? > > > > Also "one who follows strictly the order of Lord > > Caitanya to preach Krishna consciousness IS a > > spiritual master" - yes but don't forget - diksa > guru > > MUST be authorised by the previous acarya. > > Srila Prabhupada said (in English) "is permitted to > make disciples". > > If you want to ignore Srila Prabhupada's statement, > then go ahead. > > ys Ramakanta dasa > > ----------------------- > To from this mailing list, send an email > to: > Initiations.in.ISKCON-Owner (AT) pamho (DOT) net > Take Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile./maildemo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 21, 2005 Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 Dear Madhusudana Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP! > Ramakanta prabhu is claiming that since Srila > Prabhupada is saying “is permitted” in this quote, > therefore this is authorization for the current ISKCON > scenario. As I already wrote, if you want to ignore Srila Prabhupada's statement, then go ahead. ys Ramakanta dasa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 21, 2005 Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 The present KŠa consciousness movement is also based on the authority of ®r…la R™pa Gosv€m… Prabhup€da. We are therefore generally known as r™p€nugas, or followers in the footsteps of ®r…la R™pa Gosv€m… Prabhup€da. It is only for our guidance that ®r…la R™pa Gosv€m… prepared his book Bhakti-ras€mta-sindhu, which is now presented in the form of The Nectar of Devotion. Persons engaged in the KŠa consciousness movement may take advantage of this great literature and be very solidly situated in KŠa consciousness. Would someone commene on this Srila Prabhada words. The present KŠa consciousness movement is also based on the authority of ®r…la R™pa Gosv€m… Prabhup€da. We are therefore generally known as r™p€nugas, or followers in the footsteps of ®r…la R™pa Gosv€m… Prabhup€da. We are therefore generally known as r™p€nugas, or followers in the footsteps of ®r…la R™pa Gosv€m… Prabhup€da.We are therefore generally known as r™p€nugas, or followers in the footsteps of ®r…la R™pa Gosv€m… Prabhup€da.We are therefore generally known as r™p€nugas, or followers in the footsteps of ®r…la R™pa Gosv€m… Prabhup€da.We are therefore generally known as r™p€nugas, or followers in the footsteps of ®r…la R™pa Gosv€m… Prabhup€da. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2005 Report Share Posted January 22, 2005 > The present KŠa consciousness movement is also based on the authority of > ®r…la R™pa Gosv€m… Prabhup€da. We are therefore generally known as > r™p€nugas, or followers in the footsteps of ®r…la R™pa Gosv€m… Prabhup€da. > We are therefore generally known as r™p€nugas, or followers in the > footsteps of ®r…la R™pa Gosv€m… Prabhup€da.We are therefore generally > known as r™p€nugas, or followers in the footsteps of ®r…la R™pa Gosv€m… > Prabhup€da.We are therefore generally known as r™p€nugas, or followers in > the footsteps of ®r…la R™pa Gosv€m… Prabhup€da.We are therefore generally > known as r™p€nugas, or followers in the footsteps of ®r…la R™pa Gosv€m… > Prabhup€da. hehe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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