Guest guest Posted January 20, 2005 Report Share Posted January 20, 2005 (1) "A statement is true, if the opposite is not mentioned by guru, sadhu or sastra." >From (1) follows (2): (2) "The statement 'for the initiation the physical presence of the diksa guru is required' is true, if the opposite is not mentioned by guru, sadhu or sastra." (3) "It is not mentioned by guru, sadhu or sastra that for the initiation the physical presence of the diksa guru is not required." >From (2) and (3) follows (4): (4) "For the initiation the physical presence of the diksa guru is required". (5) "Srila Prabhupada is not physically present anymore". >From (4) and (5) follows the conclusion (6): (6) "Srila Prabhupada did not introduce a permanent ritvik system". To refute this proof you have to prove that either (1), (3), or (5) is wrong. Notes: - By "physical presence" I mean that a interactive communication is possible, except in dreams. - I am speaking about initiation (diksa), not instruction (siksa). So please don't present quotes that say that for instructing the physical presence of the guru is not required. Especially do not present the quotes in TFO about physical presence because they all refer to siksa, not diksa. ys Ramakanta dasa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 21, 2005 Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 Dear Prabhu's Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. Ramakanta prabhu writes... "...To refute this proof you have to prove that either (1), (3), or (5) is wrong...." I beg to disagree with his conclusion, since he appears to be putting the cart before the horse here. First HE has to ESTABLISH his statements as TRUE, THEN he has proof of the validity of his own statements. Once he has established the bona-fides of his statements THEN he can challenge others to refute them. Merely stating a case does NOT constitute proof in its self. He is simply looking for fools, by this process he has adapted here. "When speaking in spiritual circles, one’s statements must be upheld by the scriptures. One should at once quote from scriptural authority to back up what he is saying." [bg 17.15p] ys Madhusudana dasa --- "Ramakanta (das) HKS (PAMHO.NET SysOp) (Zurich - CH)" <Ramakanta.HKS (AT) pamho (DOT) net> wrote: > (1) "A statement is true, if the opposite is not > mentioned by guru, sadhu or > sastra." > > From (1) follows (2): > > (2) "The statement 'for the initiation the physical > presence of the diksa > guru is required' is true, if the opposite is not > mentioned by guru, sadhu > or sastra." > > (3) "It is not mentioned by guru, sadhu or sastra > that for the initiation > the physical presence of the diksa guru is not > required." > > From (2) and (3) follows (4): > > (4) "For the initiation the physical presence of the > diksa guru is > required". > > (5) "Srila Prabhupada is not physically present > anymore". > > From (4) and (5) follows the conclusion (6): > > (6) "Srila Prabhupada did not introduce a permanent > ritvik system". > > To refute this proof you have to prove that either > (1), (3), or (5) is > wrong. > > Notes: > > - By "physical presence" I mean that a interactive > communication is > possible, except in dreams. > > - I am speaking about initiation (diksa), not > instruction (siksa). So please > don't present quotes that say that for instructing > the physical presence of > the guru is not required. Especially do not present > the quotes in TFO about > physical presence because they all refer to siksa, > not diksa. > > ys Ramakanta dasa > > ----------------------- > To from this mailing list, send an email > to: > Initiations.in.ISKCON-Owner (AT) pamho (DOT) net > Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. http://info.mail./mail_250 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 21, 2005 Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 Dear Madhusudana Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP! > I beg to disagree with his conclusion, since he > appears to be putting the cart before the horse here. Wonderful! Now do you also object to following proof? (1) "A statement is true, if the opposite is not mentioned by guru, sadhu or sastra." >From (1) follows (2): (2) "The statement 'for the initiation the physical presence of the diksa guru is not required' is true, if the opposite is not mentioned by guru, sadhu or sastra." (3) "It is not mentioned by guru, sadhu or sastra that for the initiation the physical presence of the diksa guru is required." >From (2) and (3) follows (4): (4) "For the initiation the physical presence of the diksa guru is not required". ys Ramakanta dasa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2005 Report Share Posted January 22, 2005 Dear Madhusudana Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP! > First HE has to ESTABLISH his statements as TRUE, THEN > he has proof of the validity of his own statements. > Once he has established the bona-fides of his > statements THEN he can challenge others to refute > them. Okay, here is the evidence that (1), (3), and (5) are true: >(1) "A statement is true, if the opposite is not mentioned by guru, sadhu >or sastra." This is Krishnakant's argument. It is probably true. Otherwise Krishnakant would not use it as a main pillar of his theory. >(3) "It is not mentioned by guru, sadhu or sastra that for the initiation >the physical presence of the diksa guru is not required." This can verified by searching the words of guru, sadhu and sastra. Krishnakant already did that but did not find any statement saying that for the initiation the physical presence of the diksa guru is not required. >(5) "Srila Prabhupada is not physically present anymore". This is an obvious fact. I think that every one agrees that most living entities on this planet no longer can have an interactive communication with Srila Prabhupada. BTW. Since we are personalists, we address each other with "you" not "he". ys Ramakanta dasa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2005 Report Share Posted January 22, 2005 ALL GLORIES TO SRILA PRABHUPADA PAMHO Ramakanta says Quote: This can verified by searching the words of guru, sadhu and sastra. Krishnakant already did that but did not find any statement saying that for the initiation the physical presence of the diksa guru is not required. >(5) "Srila Prabhupada is not physically present anymore". This is an obvious fact. I think that every one agrees that most living entities on this planet no longer can have an interactive communication with Srila Prabhupada. In regard to proof NO physical presence is required for Diksa here it is again. “My Dear [Disciple 1], Please accept my blessings. Just now I have received some more requests for giving first initiation… and now I am receiving weekly not less than ten to fifteen such requests from new students. So it is becoming very expensive to send so many sets of beads such a long distance, and it has become a little bothersome for me also, so I think now you may be appointed by me to give first initiations to new disciples by chanting on their beads on my behalf. In America [Disciple 2] is doing that. So now if there are two of you, that will give me great relief. [Disciple 2] will chant on the beads for new devotees in America, Canada, like that; you can chant on the beads for the European continent, new disciples.****** They shall, of course, still be considered as my disciples, not that they shall become your disciples, but you will be empowered by me to chant their beads and that is the same effect of binding master and disciple as if I were personally chanting.” ****** (Letter, January 4, 1973) Srila Prabhupada:*** “So I depute him to do this. This initiation. I have deputed my disciples. Is it clear or not?” ***** Disciple 3: “It’s clear... We will explain to the Bengali gentleman, just as you have described to us, so that he’ll be satisfied with this arrangement.” (Conversation, October 18, 1977, Vrndavana) ys Mark ***added by KPdd response from Mark to me forwarded to this forum...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2005 Report Share Posted January 22, 2005 Dear Bhakta Mark, PAMHO. AGTSP! > In regard to proof NO physical presence is required for Diksa here it is > again. In your three quotes Srila Prabhupada is not speaking about physical presence. Rather Srila Prabhupada was physically present when he said it and an interactive communication was possible. On the other hand, please look at following quotes: Letter to: Vinode Patel -- Montreal, 6 July, 1968: The best thing will be that if you can come here for some days, say, at least for a fortnight, you can remain here with us in the temple here, and talk with me in details before you become my disciple. Actually, I shall be very glad to accept an educated and intelligent disciple like you, but first of all we must meet and you should know whether you can accept me as your Spiritual Master, or I can accept you as my disciple. This is preliminary necessity. I am therefore requesting you to come here at least for a fortnight, and let us understand one another. SB 1.16.25 Lecture: Therefore, in the Hari-bhakti-vilasa by Sanatana Gosvami it is directed that the spiritual master and the disciple must meet together at least for one year so that the disciple may also understand that "Here is a person whom I can accept as my guru," and the guru also can see that "Here is a person who is fit for becoming my disciple." SB 2.9.7 Purport: "As already stated, Brahma is the original spiritual master for the universe, and since he was initiated by the Lord Himself, the message of Srimad-Bhagavatam is coming down by disciplic succession, and in order to receive the real message of Srimad-Bhagavatam one should APPROACH the current link, or spiritual master, in the chain of disciplic succession. .... Therefore the bona fide spiritual master who happens to MEET the sincere devotee should be accepted as the most confidential and beloved representative of the Lord." [so the spiritual master has to be approachable and it must be possible to meet him. This is possible only if he is physicall present.] SB 1.2.2 Purport: The institution of varna and asrama prescribes many regulative duties to be observed by its followers. Such duties enjoin that a candidate willing to study the Vedas must approach a bona fide spiritual master and request acceptance as his disciple. [To be able to "request acceptance as his disciple" the disciple must physically meet the guru.] Lecture on Teachings of Lord Caitanya -- Seattle, September 25, 1968: This is the process of acceptance of a spiritual master by the disciple. One should approach a spiritual master and humbly submit to him and then inquire from him about one's spiritual progress. [How can this be done if the guru is not physically present?] ys Ramakanta dasa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2005 Report Share Posted January 23, 2005 We can take the statements below from Ramakanta Prabhu and simply add the word "not" in statement (2), and remove the word "not" from statement (3), and Ramakanta's statements can be used to defeat himself, thus: (1) "A statement is true, if the opposite is not mentioned by guru, sadhu or sastra." >From (1) follows (2): (2) "The statement 'for the initiation the physical presence of the diksa guru is NOT required' is true, if the opposite is not mentioned by guru, sadhu or sastra." (3) "It is not mentioned by guru, sadhu or sastra that for the initiation the physical presence of the diksa guru is required." I would love to see a statement from GURU, Srila Prabhupada, where he states that: "For initiation the physical presence of the diksa guru is required." Especially when you consider that for the vast majority of the initiations which were conducted, SP's physical presence was not required. Hence the above statement then actually changes to: "For initiation the physical presence of the diksa guru is required to be present somewhere within a radius equal to the radius of the planet on which the initiation is taking place, but it is NOT required at the initiation itself!" Ys, Deepak >"Ramakanta (das) HKS (PAMHO.NET SysOp) (Zurich - CH)" ><Ramakanta.HKS (AT) pamho (DOT) net> >"Initiations in ISKCON" <Initiations.in.ISKCON (AT) pamho (DOT) net> >Proof #1 that ritvikvada is wrong >Thu, 20 Jan 2005 10:21 +0100 > >(1) "A statement is true, if the opposite is not mentioned by guru, sadhu >or >sastra." > >From (1) follows (2): > >(2) "The statement 'for the initiation the physical presence of the diksa >guru is required' is true, if the opposite is not mentioned by guru, sadhu >or sastra." > >(3) "It is not mentioned by guru, sadhu or sastra that for the initiation >the physical presence of the diksa guru is not required." > >From (2) and (3) follows (4): > >(4) "For the initiation the physical presence of the diksa guru is >required". > >(5) "Srila Prabhupada is not physically present anymore". > >From (4) and (5) follows the conclusion (6): > >(6) "Srila Prabhupada did not introduce a permanent ritvik system". > >To refute this proof you have to prove that either (1), (3), or (5) is >wrong. > >Notes: > >- By "physical presence" I mean that a interactive communication is >possible, except in dreams. > >- I am speaking about initiation (diksa), not instruction (siksa). So >please >don't present quotes that say that for instructing the physical presence of >the guru is not required. Especially do not present the quotes in TFO about >physical presence because they all refer to siksa, not diksa. > >ys Ramakanta dasa _______________ Want to block unwanted pop-ups? Download the free MSN Toolbar now! http://toolbar.msn.co.uk/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2005 Report Share Posted January 23, 2005 Dear Deepak Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP! > We can take the statements below from Ramakanta Prabhu and simply add the > word "not" in statement (2), and remove the word "not" from statement (3), > and Ramakanta's statements can be used to defeat himself, thus: I took Krishnakant's statements, simply removed the word "not" in statement (2), and added the word "not" to statement (3), and used Krishnakant's statement to defeat himself. If you revert the change, then of course you will again get Krishnakant's statements. But still, you have not refuted my proof. As I wrote, to refute it you must prove that either (1), (3), or (5) is wrong. > I would love to see a statement from GURU, Srila Prabhupada, where he > states that: > > "For initiation the physical presence of the diksa guru is required." And I would love to see a statement from GURU, Srila Prabhupada, where he states that: "For initiation the physical presence of the diksa guru is not required." Especially when you consider the statements which I just posted in this forum and which show that the physical presence is required. > Especially when you consider that for the vast majority of the initiations > which were conducted, SP's physical presence was not required. You cannot understand the actions of a vaisnava. You cannot find out the truth by observing how a vaisnava conducted something. See also CC Madhya 23.39: yanra citte krsna-prema karaye udaya tanra vakya, kriya, mudra vijneha na bujhaya "Even the most learned man cannot understand the words, activities and symptoms of a person situated in love of Godhead. > Hence the above statement then actually changes to: > > "For initiation the physical presence of the diksa guru is required to be > present somewhere within a radius equal to the radius of the planet on > which the initiation is taking place, but it is NOT required at the > initiation itself!" That was not my definition of "physical presence" that I used in my proof. BTW. You made a mistake, it should be "diameter of the planet" not "radius". ys Ramakanta dasa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 24, 2005 Report Share Posted January 24, 2005 ALL GLORIES TO SRILA PRABHUPADA PAMHO Ramakanta das say's Quote: In your three quotes Srila Prabhupada is not speaking about physical presence. Rather Srila Prabhupada was physically present when he said it and an interactive communication was possible. On the other hand, please look at following quotes: Letter to: Vinode Patel -- Montreal, 6 July, 1968: The best thing will be that if you can come here for some days, say, at least for a fortnight, you can remain here with us in the temple here, and talk with me in details before you become my disciple. Actually, I shall be very glad to accept an educated and intelligent disciple like you, but first of all we must meet and you should know whether you can accept me as your Spiritual Master, or I can accept you as my disciple. This is preliminary necessity. I am therefore requesting you to come here at least for a fortnight, and let us understand one another. SB 1.16.25 Lecture: Therefore, in the Hari-bhakti-vilasa by Sanatana Gosvami it is directed that the spiritual master and the disciple must meet together at least for one year so that the disciple may also understand that "Here is a person whom I can accept as my guru," and the guru also can see that "Here is a person who is fit for becoming my disciple." SB 2.9.7 Purport: "As already stated, Brahma is the original spiritual master for the universe, and since he was initiated by the Lord Himself, the message of Srimad-Bhagavatam is coming down by disciplic succession, and in order to receive the real message of Srimad-Bhagavatam one should APPROACH the current link, or spiritual master, in the chain of disciplic succession. .... Therefore the bona fide spiritual master who happens to MEET the sincere devotee should be accepted as the most confidential and beloved representative of the Lord." [so the spiritual master has to be approachable and it must be possible to meet him. This is possible only if he is physicall present.] SB 1.2.2 Purport: The institution of varna and asrama prescribes many regulative duties to be observed by its followers. Such duties enjoin that a candidate willing to study the Vedas must approach a bona fide spiritual master and request acceptance as his disciple. [To be able to "request acceptance as his disciple" the disciple must physically meet the guru.] Lecture on Teachings of Lord Caitanya -- Seattle, September 25, 1968: This is the process of acceptance of a spiritual master by the disciple. One should approach a spiritual master and humbly submit to him and then inquire from him about one's spiritual progress. Sorry Ramakanta prabhu but you are arguing semantics here,you cant just make it up as you go along. The fact is Srila Prabhupada was NOT there physically when his disciples were authorised to perform the diksa ceremony on His behalf. Your argument (physical) is similar to the HENCEFORWARD argument, and no intelligent person would ever accept this. You are moulding the word to fit your own ideas!! If Srila Prabhupada were in India and One of His disciples performed the ceremony in Russia (as authorised by Srila Prabhupada) then how do you claim that Srila Prabhupada was physically present?? This is Nonsense! Some devotees who were initiated in this way NEVER EVER MET SRILA PRABHUPADA IN PERSON!!!! So this means that Srila Prabhupada didn't do what you have qouted from the Hari- Bhakti -Vilasa. He is a Bonafide Spiritual Master so He can do this if He wishes! Who are you to question that. brahma pramada vipralipsa karanapatava arsa-vijna nahi dosa ei saba: "Mistakes, illusions, cheating, and defective perception do not occur in the sayings of the authoritive sages."(Sri Caitanya-caritamrta,Adi 2.86) The facts speak for themselves! Why did He initiate devotees who He had never met? Why was He NOT there physically to meet them and or initiate them?? Quote: Letter to: Vinode Patel -- Montreal, 6 July, 1968: The best thing will be that if you can come here for some days, say, at least for a fortnight, you can remain here with us in the temple here, and talk with me in details before you become my disciple. Actually, I shall be very glad to accept an educated and intelligent disciple like you, but first of all we must meet and you should know whether you can accept me as your Spiritual Master, or I can accept you as my disciple. This is preliminary necessity. I am therefore requesting you to come here at least for a fortnight, and let us understand one another. This letter is from 1968!! Srila Prabhupada did not introduce the Ritvik process into Iskcon until 1973!!!!! So this letter is irrelevant! Quote: and in order to receive the real message of Srimad-Bhagavatam one should APPROACH the current link, or spiritual master, in the chain of disciplic succession .. Srila Prabhupada IS THE CURRENT LINK and is approachable! " Everyone can become a first-class preacher. Simply cram the purports of my books. The references are there. The philosophy is there. Everything is there." (letter, December 25 1973) "...One has to associate with liberated persons NOT DIRECTLY PHYSICALLY, but by understanding, through philosophy and logic..."(Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.31.48, Purport) So here Srila Prabhupada makes it VERY CLEAR that He is available to anyone on this Planet who wishes to associate with Him and accept Him as their Spiritual Master!! ys Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 24, 2005 Report Share Posted January 24, 2005 Dear Bhakta Mark, PAMHO. AGTSP! > Sorry Ramakanta prabhu but you are arguing semantics here,you cant just > make it up as you go along. I am presenting Srila Prabhupada's statements. If you want to ignore them, then what can I do. > The fact is Srila Prabhupada was NOT there physically when his disciples > were authorised to perform the diksa ceremony on His behalf. What do you mean by "was NOT there physically"? Please define. > If Srila Prabhupada were in India and One of His disciples performed the > ceremony in Russia (as authorised by Srila Prabhupada) then how do you > claim that Srila Prabhupada was physically present?? According to my definition, yes, because an interactive communication was possible. > Some devotees who were initiated in this way NEVER EVER MET SRILA > PRABHUPADA IN PERSON!!!! But still Srila Prabhupada was physical present according to my definition. > So this means that Srila Prabhupada didn't do what you have quoted from > the Hari- Bhakti -Vilasa. If you want to interpret Srila Prabhupada's statement in that way, then what can I do? > The facts speak for themselves! Why did He initiate devotees who He had > never met? You cannot find out the truth just by observing a vaisnava. > Quote: > Letter to: Vinode Patel -- Montreal, 6 July, 1968: > <snip> > > This letter is from 1968!! > > Srila Prabhupada did not introduce the Ritvik process into Iskcon until > 1973!!!!! > So this letter is irrelevant! Oh, in 1968 the physical presence was required, but not after 1973. When exactly was the change? > Srila Prabhupada IS THE CURRENT LINK and is approachable! No-one has yet been able to tell me how I can approach Srila Prabhupada. > " Everyone can become a first-class preacher. Simply cram the purports of > my books. The references are there. The philosophy is there. Everything is > there." (letter, December 25 1973) This refers to siksa, not diksa. > "...One has to associate with liberated persons NOT DIRECTLY PHYSICALLY, > but by understanding, through philosophy and logic..."(Srimad-Bhagavatam > 3.31.48, Purport) Also this does not refer to diksa. Conclusion: You have not yet refuted my proof #1. ys Ramakanta dasa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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