Madhusudana dasa may be my Prabhu, but he is certainly not my

[Guest guest]

Sadhu sadhu!

 

You have made very excellent points of contention. I like the point you make

about how the ritviks are so puffed up to think that anyone in ISKCON

actually needs them to tell us what to do, or they think that we need their

authorization. Imagine the folly of suggesting that KK.Desai is the

authority on guru-tattva in the whole Gaudiya Math. It's unfathomable.

 

Another good point you make is the fact that even if so many Prabhupada

disciples fall short, if just one makes it that's enough to continue the

disciplic succession. In the list of our sampradaya there are undoubtedly

many disciples of, say, Naratam das Thakur or Visvanath Chakravarti Thakur

who fell short, or who fell down, so therefore only the prominent ones are

listed. The ritviks seriously suggest that Prabhupada was unable to produce

even one pure Vaishnava capable of continuing the line. How is that a favor

to Prabhupada?

 

Your servant

Jahnudvip das

 

 

> To all loyal followers of Srila Prabhupada:

>

> Madhusudana das is ignoring the point that I am making.

> The point is that a disciple does not have to prove to anybody

> that he received an order from his guru, in order to be allowed to

> execute it. The guru's order is enough. All he has to do is follow

> it. This is his only duty.

>

> The fact is that we do not to prove anyone's bona fides to KK Desai,

> Madhusudana das, or anyone else. All we have to do is execute the

> orders we received from Srila Prabhupada. Even if for the sake of

> argument we were to consider a scenario where 10,000 disciples

> received the same order and fall flat on their faces trying to do

> so, does not mean that 10,001st disciple is forbidden to try to carry

> out the order. It only takes one fully obedient disciple to keep the

> disciplic succession going.

>

> But we see that this Prabhu wants to sit on our heads like he's

> some kind of big authority telling us what we can do and cannot do.

> Sorry Madhu, His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami is our Prabhupada,

> not His Grace Sriman Madhusudana Prabhu.

>

> Just imagine if the Gaudiya Math had had a Gaudiya Math Revival Movement

> who said that only Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati is the spiritual master

> and distributed a slick "Back to Bhaktisiddhanta" magazine saying that

> A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami was bogus. The fact is that many of Srila

> Prabhupada's Godbrothers did try to discredit him just at the IRM people

> are currently trying to discredit so many sincere disciples of Srila

> Prabhupada. In this way all they are doing is cutting themselves off

> from Srila Prabhupada.

>

> The dogs will bark, but the caravan will pass. So long IRM.

> Note: IRM stands for ISKCON Ruination Movement

>

>

>

> failure (AT) pamho (DOT) net [failure (AT) pamho (DOT) net] On Behalf Of

> Madhusudana Dasa

> Thursday, January 20, 2005 1:36 PM

> Initiations in ISKCON; Sankarsana (das) ACBSP (Austin, Texas - USA)

> Re: The guru gives no proof of his authorization to initiate. Who

> is a bona fide guru is judged by the result of his actions. That is the

> proof.

>

> Dear Prabhu

>

> Please accept my humble obeisances.

> All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

>

> Just see how desperate this guy Sankarshan is. He forwarded, this, and

> that, etc. as proof of his bona-fides regarding his authorization from

> Srila Prabhupada to be diksa-guru.

>

> "One should take initiation from a bona fide spiritual master coming in

> the disciplic succession, who is authorised by his predecessor spiritual

> master. This is called diksa -vidhana."(S.B. 4.8.54,purport)

>

> Now that all his attempts to convince the devotees on this conference

> about his guru credentials have proven futile, he's decided a new

> revolutionary approach to the problem.

>

> In this his latest diatribe on the subject of diksa -vidhana he has

> decided to try - We don't need authorization, because were bona-fide! (How

> nouvelle!)

>

> In the hope that maybe, just maybe, there is someone out there who is

> gullable enough to believe him.

>

> However Srila Prabhupada tells us differently.

>

> ".....You should know that one can become guru when he is ordered by his

> guru,...." Bhagavad-gita 7.2 -- Nairobi,October 28, 1975

>

> So if Sankarshan prabhu can tell us WHEN he was ordered by Srila

> Prabhupada to be diksa guru, then this whole discussion can cease.

>

> If YOU have NOT received ANY ORDER from Srila Prabhupada to be diksa guru,

> why don't YOU have the adhikari to just say so?

>

>

> ys

> Madhusudana dasa

>

>

>

>

> --- "Sankarsana (das) ACBSP (Austin, Texas - USA)"

> <Sankarsana.ACBSP (AT) pamho (DOT) net> wrote:

>

> > My Dear Prabhupadanugas,

> > Please accept my obeisances.

> > All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

> >

> > These ritviks are claiming that we are not bona fide spiritual masters

> > and they want us to prove that we are, if we are to continue

> > initiating disciples. Even though Srila Prabhupada insructed us to

> > become initiating gurus in Mayapur, and even though I was personally

> > encouraged to become a guru and even given pointers by Srila

> > Prabhupada on how to become a guru they want to know the exact quotes

> > so that through word jugglery they can dismantle it.

> >

> > It's interesting to note in this connection that the bona fide

> > spiritual master does not tell how he received the authorization to

> > initiate disciples.

> > He simply tells that a guru becomes a guru when he is ordered by his

> > spiritual master. That's all.

> >

> > This is illustrated by the following conversation of Srila Prabhupada:

> >

> > Indian man: When did you become the spiritual leader of Krishna

> > consciousness?

> > Prabhupada: What is that?

> > Brahmananda: He's asking when did you become the spiritual leader of

> > Krishna

> >

> > consciousness?

> > Prabhupada: When my Guru Maharaja ordered me. This is the

> > guru-parampara.

> > Indian: Did it...

> > Prabhupada: Try to understand. Don't go very speedily. A guru can

> > become guru when he's ordered by his guru. That's all.

> > Otherwise nobody can become

> > guru.

> > Indian woman 2: (Hindi)

> > Prabhupada: (Hindi) Sadhi mam prapannam. "I am surrendered to You.

> > Whatever You say, I shall carry out." That's all.

> > Indian man: When did he tell you to...?

> > Prabhupada: What is the business, when did he tell me? And why shall I

> > disclose to you? It is so very insignificant thing that I have to

> > explain to you?

> > Indian man: No, I am just curious when...

> > Prabhupada: You should be curious within your limit.

> > You should know that

> > one

> > can become guru when he is ordered by his guru, this much.

> > >>> Ref. VedaBase => Bhagavad-gita 7.2 -- Nairobi,

> > October 28, 1975

> >

> > On the other hand if the guru is bogus, if he not authorized to

> > initiate disciples, then he will not be able to tell how he got the

> > authorization to initiate disciples.

> >

> > So either way no proof is given.

> >

> > If no proof is given then how will we know who is a bona fide

> > spiritual master?

> > This answer is given by Srila Prabhupada as follows:

> >

> > It is said, phalena pariciyate: one is recognized by the result of his

> > actions.

> > In Vaisnava society there are many types of Vaisnavas. Some of them

> > are called gosvamis, some are called svamis, some are prabhus, and

> > some are prabhupada.

> >

> > One is not recognized, however, simply by such a name. A spiritual

> > master is

> >

> > recognized as an actual guru when it is seen that he has changed the

> > character of his disciples.

> > >>> Ref. VedaBase => Antya 3.143

> >

> > So the conclusion is:

> >

> > The guru gives no proof of his authorization to initiate. Who is a

> > bona fide

> >

> > guru is judged by the result of his actions. That is the proof.

> >

> > Hoping this meets you in good health and in a cheerful mood, Your

> > eternal servant,

> >

> > Sankarshan Das Adhikari

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > failure (AT) pamho (DOT) net [failure (AT) pamho (DOT) net] On Behalf Of

> > Madhusudana Dasa

> > Wednesday, January 19, 2005 7:14 AM

> > Sankarshan Das Adhikari

> > Cc: Initiations in ISKCON

> > Re: Toy Firetruck

> >

> > Dear Prabhu

> >

> > Please accept my humble obeisances.

> > All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

> >

> > So are you now claiming that this quote from the Nectar of Devotion

> > (written about 500 years ago by Rupa Goswami) is how YOU got your

> > authorization to be a diksa guru?

> >

> > Also "one who follows strictly the order of Lord Caitanya to preach

> > Krishna consciousness IS a spiritual master" - yes but don't forget -

> > diksa guru MUST be authorised by the previous acarya.

> >

> > If "a child who is playing with his toy firetruck"

> > can defeat you so easily.

> >

> > Then just see YOUR position!

> >

> > Self-realization?

> >

> > ys

> > Madhusudana dasa

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> -----------------------

> > To from this mailing list, send an email

> > to:

> > Initiations.in.ISKCON-Owner (AT) pamho (DOT) net

> >

>

>

>

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