Guest guest Posted January 21, 2005 Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 > Better that you and your like-thinking friends prove your points by > establishing another movement that will quickly eclipse Iskcon, and when > the sincere devotees of Iskcon realize their mistake by seeing your vast > and faultless society, you can compassionately welcome them into your > fold. This would be far more beneficial than continuing your diatribe with > its accompanying self-aggrandisement and sense-gratifying one-upmanship > that reeks of frustrated subtle sex desire. > > Ys > Sunanda das. Dear Sunandan prabhu, you have hit the nail on the head. I think that settles the matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 21, 2005 Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 Dear Sunanda Prabhu Please accept my obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. Thank you for your comments. As I have mentioned several times on this conference, I only have time to physically discuss with one Prabhu at a time, and at this moment I am engaging in a discussion with Ramakanta Prabhu. I will be happy to discuss with you your undertsanding of the May 28th conversation, if you so wish, at the conclusion of my debate with Ramakanta - although this may take some time as I intend to address each of his points in turn. In the meantime, a couple of points arising from your post which you may wish to consider for any future discussion we may have: >It is pointless to demand and give quote after quote to support or attack >diametrically opposite points of view. With apologies to Benjamin Disraeli: >There are three kinds of lies: Lies, Damned Lies, and Quotes! But it seems that you are exempt from your own advice, since YOU have given ME quotes to support YOUR understanding of the May 28th conversation. The GBC has also issued several papers, a number of them contradictory, which are full of these quotes that you speak of (and "lies" as it happens). I would also be interested to see where Srila Prabhupada says we should not support our statements with evidence from the words of our acarya. Maybe you can dig these up for me for our future discussion. >If the GBC have issued three papers defining Iskcon's policy on guru >tattva, so >be it. Let them issue a dozen if that's what it takes to get it right. So you concede that after 28 years they still have not got their philosophy on guru-tattva right? Perhaps it would help to simply return to following Srila Prabhupada's final order on initiations (July 9th 1977). >You have had your say, and the highest managerial authority in Iskcon >disagrees >with you, either toe the line or stick to the non-devotees for your >preaching. The highest managerial authority in ISKCON also recently (2004) withdrew its"final siddhanta" paper on guru-tattva, namely 'On My Order Understood', admitting it "stretches the truth" and is "full of lies". Under this circumstance, most thoughtful human beings would not be satisfied simply "toeing the line", especially when the movement is supposed to be propagating the highest *truth*. After all, truthfulness is supposed to be the last leg of religion. With best wishes. Your servant, Deepak _______________ It's fast, it's easy and it's free. Get MSN Messenger today! http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 21, 2005 Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 Dear Deepak, Please accept my obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. Thank you for your swift reply. I appreciate your difficulty in discussing with too many people at once. Perhaps I might just comment that I did not demand nor give quote after quote, to support my understanding of the May 28th conversation. I expect you read my letter and replied in a hurry, so I will not take any offence. Perhaps that is also why you suggest I dig up some quotes to support not digging up quotes, hardly a very intelligent suggestion, but again I expect you were rushed. I do not conceded yet, that the GBC after 28 years they still have not got their philosophy on guru-tattva right. I conceed that they didn't get it right initially. If there are no more changes then we can consider that now it is right. If there are more changes, then I concede that at present it is not yet right. Finally I consider it very honest of the GBC to admit their mistakes, and in fact........ truthful, so even though I am not the most thoughtful of people, I am happy to toe-the-line, confident that Krsna is still the supreme controller, and the well-wisher of all. With best wishes, Your servant, Sunanda das. Dear Sunanda Prabhu Please accept my obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. Thank you for your comments. As I have mentioned several times on this conference, I only have time to physically discuss with one Prabhu at a time, and at this moment I am engaging in a discussion with Ramakanta Prabhu. I will be happy to discuss with you your undertsanding of the May 28th conversation, if you so wish, at the conclusion of my debate with Ramakanta - although this may take some time as I intend to address each of his points in turn. In the meantime, a couple of points arising from your post which you may wish to consider for any future discussion we may have: >It is pointless to demand and give quote after quote to support or attack >diametrically opposite points of view. With apologies to Benjamin Disraeli: >There are three kinds of lies: Lies, Damned Lies, and Quotes! But it seems that you are exempt from your own advice, since YOU have given ME quotes to support YOUR understanding of the May 28th conversation. The GBC has also issued several papers, a number of them contradictory, which are full of these quotes that you speak of (and "lies" as it happens). I would also be interested to see where Srila Prabhupada says we should not support our statements with evidence from the words of our acarya. Maybe you can dig these up for me for our future discussion. >If the GBC have issued three papers defining Iskcon's policy on guru >tattva, so >be it. Let them issue a dozen if that's what it takes to get it right. So you concede that after 28 years they still have not got their philosophy on guru-tattva right? Perhaps it would help to simply return to following Srila Prabhupada's final order on initiations (July 9th 1977). >You have had your say, and the highest managerial authority in Iskcon >disagrees >with you, either toe the line or stick to the non-devotees for your >preaching. The highest managerial authority in ISKCON also recently (2004) withdrew its"final siddhanta" paper on guru-tattva, namely 'On My Order Understood', admitting it "stretches the truth" and is "full of lies". Under this circumstance, most thoughtful human beings would not be satisfied simply "toeing the line", especially when the movement is supposed to be propagating the highest *truth*. After all, truthfulness is supposed to be the last leg of religion. With best wishes. Your servant, Deepak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2005 Report Share Posted January 22, 2005 > But it seems that you are exempt from your own advice, since YOU have > given ME quotes to support YOUR understanding of the May 28th > conversation. The GBC has also issued several papers, a number of them > contradictory, which are full of these quotes that you speak of (and > "lies" as it happens). I would also be interested to see where Srila > Prabhupada says we should not support our statements with evidence from > the words of our acarya. Maybe you can dig these up for me for our future > discussion. > > >If the GBC have issued three papers defining Iskcon's policy on guru > >tattva, so be it. Let them issue a dozen if that's what it takes to get > > it right. > > So you concede that after 28 years they still have not got their > philosophy on guru-tattva right? If you read it again, you'll see that it is not what Sunanda concedes. You are putting words into his mouth and then proceeding to defeat that. That's called strawman tactics. > Perhaps it would help to simply return > to following Srila Prabhupada's final order on initiations (July 9th > 1977). This is a case of jumping to conclusions. You haven't proven your case that the July 9th letter constitutes Prabhupada's final orders on initiation. You keep repeating it like a mantra that the letter is the final order, But there is no basis for such a claim. What is the basis? Your only proof is the letter itself, and that's a case of circular logic. There is no support for the conclusions you try to draw from that letter in guru, sadhu and sastra. The whole Vaishna community has judged that ritvikvada is out. It is only you and a couple of other suspect characters who think that the letter of July 9th is the final word on initiations in ISKCON. Can't you see how silly it is to stubbornly maintain such a weak position? It is just like Jayadvaita Swami was saying. You are beating a dead horse, and that's all there is to it. Of course it is sensegratification for you to argue legalities, and it is sensegratification for me to argue philosophy, so it seems we can habor on and on as long as none of has anything better to do. But it is just as Sunanda said - it is nothing but the manifestation of mental and intellectual sensegratification which is the same as subtle sex desire. Of course there can't be much sensegratification in it for you since you are only losing. Not only are you losing a very precious, rare opportunity to practice Krishna consciousness, but you are losing face as well. You are making yourself into a pariah. > The highest managerial authority in ISKCON also recently (2004) withdrew > its"final siddhanta" paper on guru-tattva, namely 'On My Order > Understood', admitting it "stretches the truth" and is "full of lies". > Under this circumstance, most thoughtful human beings would not be > satisfied simply "toeing the line", especially when the movement is > supposed to be propagating the highest *truth*. After all, truthfulness > is supposed to be the last leg of religion. So why are you trying to kick it away? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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