Hare Krishna Cultural Journal Update: Gay Monogamy Contradicts Srila

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Hare Krishna Cultural Journal Update: Gay Monogamy Contradicts Srila

Prabhupada's Teachings

 

March 22, 2005

 

 

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http://siddhanta.com/archives/culture/000236.html

 

 

by Basu Ghosh das (ACBSP)

 

 

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Recently HH Hridayananda Maharaj submitted a thesis to the worldwide

assembly of ISKCON devotees (via the [1]CHAKRA website) entitled

[2]Vaishnava moral theology and the homosexual issue.

 

Since acceptance of the proposal that has been submitted in that essay

would have far reaching effects in our Society, I feel compelled to

express my most humble opinions in this regard herein.

 

Maharaj makes the following statement of intent towards the end of his

thesis:

 

The question then arises: is the policy of choosing the lesser of

evils valid only for heterosexuals, or it is also a necessary

strategy for homosexuals? Keep in mind that Prabhupada emphasizes

that Krishna consciousness is a gradual process, that is, a process

that proceeds slowly, step by step. The notion of a gradual process

logically entails the further notion that gradual steps in the

right direction are just that: steps in the right direction. And a

spiritual society must encourage all its members to take steps in

the right direction.

 

Whats being clearly implied here is that encouraging homosexual

marriage would be a step in the right direction for encouraging those

devotees who are inclined towards and indulge in homosexuality, to

bring them to the path of devotional service.

 

The question that arises in my mind upon reading this is simple

enough: is this proposition philosophically sound?

 

And secondly: do the rationalizations for suggesting this that Maharaj

made in the body of his thesis prove this point?

 

Its interesting to note that Maharaj has made his rationalizations

based on reference to several passages in Srimad Bhagavatam and the

Mahabharata. This makes it look like, at least from the point of view

of a first cursory glance, that Maharaj is not just simply talking off

the top of his head.

 

Hes using scholarly means to establish the basis of what he perceives

to be the truth of his thesis! The style of presentation is intended

to lead the reader to the understanding that this proposition is

supported by logic that is deduced from some parts of these

literatures. Hence its a kind of indirect shastra pramana evidence

from vedic literatures which traditionally is the methodology used to

derive a clear understanding of their teachings.

 

However, we must point out that not one of the references that Maharaj

has used in his essay directly sanctions homosexuality or homosexual

marriage.

 

Indeed the concept of homosexual marriage is a rather new development

in the world. A study of most of the major religions in the world will

bear witness to the fact that none of them contain the concept of

homosexual marriage!

 

And regarding homosexuality itself, we have very clear teachings in

this regard from Srila Prabhupada.[3]* Srila Prabhupada was not

ambiguous on the subject at all!

 

One of Srila Prabhupadas letters and a host of his comments very

explicitly condemn homosexuality. Srila Prabhupadas condemnation of

homosexuality cannot, therefore, be negated by stressing Srila

Prabhupadas emphasis gradual advancement in Krishna Consciousness.

 

And, in view of these categorical statements by Srila Prabhupada, how

might it be rationalized that the ISKCON institution sanction

homosexual marriage?

 

The answer is simple: there exists no basis in Srila Prabhupadas

teachings for sanctioning homosexual marriage. To do so would be a

clear transgression of his explicit instructions in this regard.

 

The conundrum we face here is that we have one of the senior most

sannyasi disciples of Srila Prabhupada, highly regarded and loved by

many of us and noted for his keen wit and scholarship, and who is

attempting to make his case using an analytical study of various

stories from Srimad Bhagavatam and Mahabharata.

 

Isnt that irrefutable?

 

The answer is, no, not at all! The reasoning here is simple enough: we

as disciples of Srila Prabhupada cannot contradict his specific

instructions and unambiguous condemnation of homosexuality and

homosexual marriage.

 

If the subject matter was something ambiguous, where there was no

clear instruction from Srila Prabhupada, then that would call for a

detailed analysis and critique.

 

But here we have a subject that was already analyzed and critiqued

clearly by Srila Prabhupada himself, time and again! The references

supplied herein prove that beyond any shadow of doubt.

 

What to speak of the evidence of tradition! And the point here is that

no such tradition exists amongst the standard followers of vedic

culture and religion.

 

By this I mean the four Vaishnava sampradayas, the advaitins followers

of Adi Shankaracharya, nor amongst the vedic brahmanas followers of

purva mimamsa, nor amongst other sects of brahmanas that derived from

the vedas such as sankhyas or nyayayikas.

 

Additionally vedic scriptures, the shastras, dont deal on the subject

at all! We simply do not find anywhere any provision for providing for

homosexual marriage.

 

The question may then be put: what about the fact that many liberal

followers of the western religious traditions are striving to change

those traditions so as to bring them in line with ideas that are being

popularized at present in society via the media both print and

electronic media which, at least the propaganda says reflects the

prevalent view of contemporary society?

 

The argument is that in a free society, persons who are so inclined

should be allowed their freedoms! Therefore, shouldnt ISKCON be

flexible enough adjust its policy to accommodate views that have

become popular in the public, as time and circumstance warrant?

 

The reasoning here is this: we dont find sanction for homosexual

marriage in any of the mainline sects of Hinduism, as noted above.

Neither do we find sanction for it in the writings of our immediate

past Acharyas, including the foremost scholar of this age, Srila

Saraswati Thakur, nor in the writings of Srila Bhaktivinod Thakur, nor

in the vast literatures of the Six Goswamis of Vrindavan.

 

It should be remembered that both of our immediate past Acharyas were

quite liberal maybe even to the point of extremely liberal - in as

much as they sanctioned Vaishnava pancharatrika diksha for members of

various low castes.

 

Of course they had cited pramanas supporting this outlook from the

writings of the six goswamis, Mahabharata and other shastras.

 

However, we dont find that they altered the precepts taught by our

purvacharyas just to satisfy popular opinion.

 

What to speak of the fact that Srila Prabhupada dealt very much with

the contemporary situation in society and, even more specifically,

condemned the attempts of some members of modern day clergy to

institute homosexual marriages![4]**

 

The proposal to sanction the marriage of homosexuals, and the

rationalization that such an arrangement might help such individuals

and couples advance in Krishna consciousness, takes things outside the

scope of the teachings upon which Krishna consciousness is based.

Srila Prabhupadas comments included here in the footnotes are more

than enough proof to show that this proposal is unfortunate and ill

conceived.

 

There is also the general danger that comes with altering our

practices and culture in order to satisfy the popular opinions of

contemporary society. The old analogy of pouring too much water into

the milk comes to mind in this regard.

 

Personally, I have much regard and affection for HH Hridayananda

Maharaj. I pray that my analysis of his thesis will not be taken as an

attempt to malign him personally. My aim here is to sound the alarm

that philosophically Srila Prabhupadas teachings regarding

homosexuality werent taken into full consideration in his thesis.

 

Therefore, I humbly beg Maharaj to reconsider his analysis in view of

Srila Prabhupadas clear statements condemning homosexuality and

homosexual marriage that are presented in the addenda of this essay.

 

Srila Prabhupada warned his disciples time and again about changing,

manufacturing and concocting religious principles.

 

"You have manufactured so many types of religion. You give it up.

Kick it out. This is religion: you surrender unto Me." So if you

become a surrendered soul to God-that means you become a

devotee-then you are religionist. Otherwise you are criminal.

Therefore sastra says that you should follow the great devotees.

That is religion. You cannot manufacture religion, you cannot

concoct religion. You just try to follow the great personalities,

and that is religion.

 

May 25, 1975 at Honolulu, during a general lecture

 

Any proposal to allow homosexuals to marry must be seen very clearly

as an attempt to introduce a new concept and in this case specifically

a concept that clearly violates Srila Prabhupadas instructions

specific instructions.

 

This proposal has no basis in Vaishnava tradition, Vaishnava history,

or in any vedic and Vaishnava literature, specifically the dharma

shastras, that Srila Prabhupada referred to as the lawbooks for

mankind.

 

"In Manu-samhita, the lawbook for mankind," - In SP's Purport to Bg

2.21

 

Therefore Vedic system is... I am not manufacturing, I am speaking

authorizedly on the Vedic principle. The Manu-samhita, the law of

Vedas, Manu, the master of the humankind, Manu... Manu is the

father of the mankind. So he has got his lawbook. That Manu-samhita

lawbook is still followed in India so far as the Hindus are

concerned.

 

(SP's lecture at Seattle, USA, on Oct. 7, 1968.)

 

Therefore we can only conclude that the idea of homosexual marriage is

an apasiddhanta, is obviously unacceptable and therefore must be

rejected by the leadership of ISKCON.

* Srila Prabhupada's Statements on Homosexuality

 

1. Prabhupada: That is not enjoyment. Just like sex indulgence. If

you indulge in more than necessary, then you will be impotent.

Nature will stop. You know impotency? That will be there.

Impotency. This homosex is also another sign of impotency. They do

not feel sex impulse to woman. They feel sex impulse in man. That

means he is impotent. It is impotency. So things are coming so

rubbish now. This is the time for preaching our program, standard.

Then?

 

Prabhupada: Now this progeny is bother. It is sense enjoyment,

homosex. Progeny, they don't want. They're not interested. Only

sense gratification. This is another sign of impotency. When after

enjoying so many women, they become impotent, then they

artificially create another sex impulse in homosex. This is the

psychology. So people are degraded so much. Especially in the...

Everywhere, not specially this or that. Everywhere. This is

Kali-yuga. But thoughtful leaders, they are thinking, "What to

do?" That's very good sign. And take advantage and give them

program exactly to the direction of Bhagavad-gita. Then the world

will be saved. Otherwise it is doomed. It is a fact.

 

From SP's Arrival address & discussion with Nitai at Chicago, July

3, 1975

 

2. So formerly, the king was controlled by saintly persons, by

priestly order. They would give the king advice. The Vedic society

is divided into four classes of men. It is confirmed in the

Bhagavad-gita, catur-varnyam maya srstam guna-karma-vibhagasah

[bg. 4.13]. According to quality and work, there are four

divisions of men: The brahmana, the intelligent class of men; the

ksatriyas, the administrative class of men, the martial class of

men; and the vaisyas, the productive class of men; and the sudras,

the worker class of men. That is still existing in a different

name, but the difficulty is, the classification is not made

according to quality and work. That was the actual position of

classification. Nowadays, a sudra is on the government. A person

who is a nonsense number one, he has no knowledge, he is on the

head of the government. The things have been topsy-turvied. A

person on religious category, he's advocating something, oh, it is

not to be uttered. Homosex. You see? He's advocating homosex. Just

see. These has been topsy-turvied. The four classes of men are

there, still. But the third-class, fourth-class man is taking the

place of first class. And the first-class man is kicked out, "Go

out. Don't talk of God." This is the position at the present

moment. The classes are there.

 

SP's Sunday Feast Lecture at Los Angeles, May 21, 1972

3. Syamasundara: His idea of ultimate reality is that it is the moral

ego or pure will that...

 

Prabhupada: Then he has to define what is morality.

 

Syamasundara: Yes.

 

Prabhupada: Everyone says, "It is my morality." Everyone can

manufacture (indistinct). Just like, for example in India if

somebody talks of homosex (indistinct) immoral, and here it is

going on. (indistinct). So what is morality? (indistinct).

 

In disucssion with Shyamasundar regarding philosopher Fichte

 

4. Prabhupada: ...not sentimental. There is no religion, and still,

they are professing, "I profess this religion," Where is your

religion? If actually there was religion in the human society, why

there are so many problems? There should not have been so many

problems. The problems are in the animal society. Why there should

be problem in human society? Because they have given up the real

principles. They are simply animals. Therefore there are so many

problems. Actually there is no problem. Even they are not animal.

Less than animal. In animal society there is no problem. There is

problem, but not so acute. They are free. Just like the ducks, the

pigeons, they fly from one country to another. They have no

problem of immigration department, passport, or visa. They have no

problem. These rascals should understand that they have created

problem on account of their animalistic, less than animalistic

civilization. There is no limit of sense gratification. The sense

gratification, homosex, they are supporting. Just see. Just see.

At least, in animal society there is no homosex. They have created

homosex, and that is being passed by the priest, the religious

heads. You know that?

 

Devotee: Yes, I've heard.

 

Room conversation, London, Aug. 25, 1971

5. Bob: ...that some people feel to get married is not meaningful.

 

Prabhupada: No, the idea is that marriage is not sacred. They

think marriage is a legalized prostitution. They think like that,

but marriage is not that. Even that Christian paper, what is that,

"Watch...?"

 

Syamasundara: Christian..."Watchtower?"

 

Prabhupada: "Watchtower." It has criticized, one priest has

allowed the marriage between man to man, homosex. So these things

are going on. They take it purely for prostitution. That's all. So

therefore people are thinking, "What is the use of keeping a

regular prostitution at a cost of heavy expenditure? Better not to

have this."

 

Talk with Bob Cohen (now Brahmatirtha Prabhu) at Mayapur, Feb.

27-29, 1972.

6. The people are foolish, they have forgotten God. We are delivering

them. Best service. And without God, it is all useless, zero, all

this civilization. Zero. Whatever they are making advancement, it

is all zero. And nonsense. But actually it is. Now the priestly

order supporting homosex. I was surprised. They are going to pass

resolution for getting married between man to man. The human

society has come down to such a degraded position. It is

astonishing. When I heard from Kirtanananda Maharaja there is a

big conference for passing this resolution. In India still, if

there somebody hears about homosex (makes sound of breathing out).

Homosex is there but nobody will support publicly. (indistinct)

People are going down and this is the subject matter for priestly

order? It may be subject matter for the legislator, priestly

order, they are discussing for one week. Just imagine. Phalena

pariciyate, one has to study by the result. Not that superficially

you show that "We are very much advanced." Phalena, what is the

result? Phalena pariciyate, your, that is in English word also,

end justifies the means. The end is this (indistinct) "We are

going to support homosex." Getting married. There are many cases

the priestly order has actually got married. I read it in that

paper, Watch, what is called?

 

Devotees: Watchtower.

 

Prabhupada: Watchtower. They have complained(?). So we have

nothing to (indistinct) them. The world is degrading to the lowest

status, even less than animal. The animal also do not support

homosex. They have never sex life between male to male. They are

less than animal. People are becoming less than animal. This is

all due to godlessness. Harav abhaktasya kuto mahad-guna [sB

5.18.12], godless civilization cannot have any good qualities.

Harav abhaktasya kuto mahad-guna mano rathena asato dhavato...

They simply go to the untruth by mental speculation. (end)

 

Conversation with GBC, Los Angeles, May 25, 1972

7. Jayatirtha: Ordained priests, they have left and gone off to marry

or whatever. Especially they are concerned that they can't marry.

Catholic priests are not allowed to marry.

 

Prabhupada: Marrying? They are marrying man to man ,what to speak

of marrying. Sodomy.

 

Jayatirtha: So that's the alternative. Either they're leaving or

they're marrying man to man.

 

Prabhupada: Homosex. They are supporting homosex. So degraded, and

still they say, "What we have done?" They do not know what is

degradation, and they are priest. They are teaching others. They

do not know what is the meaning of degradation.

 

Morning walk at Los Angeles, Sept. 28, 1972

8. Yasomatinandana: It's better sometimes to approach a person with

no religion, Prabhupada, than to approach a Christian.

 

Prabhupada: Yes.

 

Yasomatinandana: These Christians are very blasphemous.

 

Prajapati: Very blasphemous.

 

Prabhupada: Yes.

 

Karandhara: Party spirit.

 

Prabhupada: No no, what is their value? When they are sanctioning

abortion, homosex, now they are finished. They have no value.

 

Karandhara: Well, most or a greater proportion of the traditional

Christians condemn homosex and abortion. A good quantity of the

traditional Christians, they condemn abortion and homosex.

 

Prabhupada: Yes, they are good, but mostly, as you were telling me

that, that Pope is disgusted... Yes. Nobody cares for the Bible or

the Pope. That is everywhere, not only Christian. Actually there

is no religion at the present moment. All animals. We don't blame

only the Christians. The Hindus, Muslim, everyone. They have lost

all religion.

 

Morning walk at Los Angeles, Dec. 8, 1973.

9. Amogha: Part of the street I think. I think it's sandstone from

the beach. (pause) Many politicians are afraid that Australia may

be attacked by the Communists. Everyone is very much afraid of

what could happen in the future, because the United States is

becoming weaker.

 

Prabhupada: Now they are indulging homosex, how they will become

strong? And the students, they are discussing, that means they are

having. The stamina is being lost. Now what they have created, it

will be lost.

 

Morning walk at Perth, Australia May 9, 1975

 

10. The symptoms of rajo-guna and tamo-guna are lust and greediness.

Just like yesterday you told me the students are talking about

homosex. That means tamo-guna, that the education-students, they

are discussing about homosex. That means tamo-guna, lusty desires,

very prominent, and how to fulfill, by homosex or sex with woman

 

That means they are making their own lusty desires fulfilled in

the name of Bible, that's all. Everyone is doing like that. They

are changing. Mass opinion is now homosex. They are passing

abortion. They are passing... What is this? This is their

business. For fulfillment of their lusty desires and greediness,

they are bringing the authority of Bible, Bhagavad-gita. This is

going on in the name of religion.

 

Morning walk at Perth, Australia May 11, 1975

 

11. Prabhupada: Nescience, yes. That is pravrtti and nivrtti. Pravrtti

means sense enjoyment. And nivrtti means self-negation. So when we

say that "You shall not have illicit sex," and their inclination

is illicit sex, so therefore it is revolutionary. They are

materialistic persons. They want sex enjoyment to the best

capacity-homosex, this sex, that sex, naked dance, all sexually

inclined, pravrtti. And we say, "Stop this," nivrtti. They do not

like it because asura. Pravrtti jagat. They do not know this is

essential. They do not know it. This is essential. Tapasa

brahmacaryena [sB 6.1.13]. Tapasya means brahmacarya

 

Our difficulty: the so-called swamis, priests, popes, they are

also in the pravrtti-marga. All these, priests, and they have

illicit sex. Pravrtti-marga. So they are passing, "Yes, you can

have homosex with man." They are getting man-to-man marriage. You

know? They are performing the marriage ceremony between man to man

in the open church. What class of men they are? And they are

priest. Just see. Such degraded persons, drinking... They have got

hospital for curing their drinking disease. Five thousand patients

in a hospital in America, all drunkards, and they are priest. Just

see. Simply by dressing long, what is called, overcoat?

 

Morning walk at Perth, Australia May 13, 1975

12. Prabhupada: They are discussing in the university homosex. They

are advanced. Advancement of education. Just see. They are not

even fourth-class men; they are animals, producing so many

animals, that's all, dogs and hogs. [break] ...in the beginning

samah. Samah, damah-first two business. Control the sense and keep

the mind undisturbed. That is the beginning. Now they are so much

sexually disturbed, they're discussing about the profit of

homosex. Where is first-class men?

 

Amogha: They say that homosex keeps the balance of things

because...

 

Prabhupada: Yes, fourth-class man can say anything wrong, bad, but

we are not going to hear of it. A fourth-class man's philosophy,

we will have to waste our time to hear them-that's not good. They

are not even fourth class; they are animal class. Fourth class has

got some position, but they are naradhama, the lowest of the

mankind. So what is their philosophy, and who is going to spoil

his time to hear about their philosophy? [break]

 

Morning walk at Perth, Australia May 14, 1975

 

13. Prabhupada: Homosex, what is that religion? And they're passing to

homosex, religion. They're getting married man to man. Most

degraded.

 

Room conversation, Mayapur, Feb 16, '77

14. Prabhupada: The hippies are nothing but a group of madmen, that's

all. A madman, they..., means publicly sex, that's all. This Allen

Ginsberg's movement is that, homosex, public sex. Ginsberg was

very proud that he had introduced homosex. He was telling me.

 

Tamala Krsna: He was telling you?

 

Prabhupada: When he first came to me he was very proud: "I have

introduced homosex." He thought very brilliant work it was. And

another man, what is that? He's put into jail.

 

Tamala Krsna: Timothy Leary.

 

SP in Room conversation Vrindavan, July 14, 1977.

15. [Explicit letter on the subject of Homosex by Srila Prabhupada]

 

Hawaii

 

26 May, 1975

 

75-05-26

 

My Dear Lalitananda dasa,

 

Please accept my blessings. I am in due receipt of your letter

dated May 13rd, 1975 and have noted the contents. I am very sorry

that you have taken to homosex. It will not help you advance in

your attempt for spiritual life. In fact, it will only hamper your

advancement. I do not know why you have taken to such abominable

activities. What can I say? Anyway, try to render whatever service

you can to Krishna. Even though you are in a very degraded

condition Krishna, being pleased with your service attitude, can

pick you up from your fallen state. You should stop this homosex

immediately. It is illicit sex, otherwise, your chances of

advancing in spiritual life are nil. Show Krishna you are serious,

if you are.

 

I hope this meets you in good health.

 

Your ever well-wisher,

 

A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

** Srila Prabhupada on Marriage and Homosexuality

 

Prabhupada: No. There is no question of high percentage. I said that

even a small percentage, there must be some ideal men. At least people

will see that here is the ideal man. Just like we are having. Because

they are chanting and dancing, many outsiders are coming and they are

also learning, they are also offering obeisances. And gradually they

are offering their service: "Please accept me." The example is better

than precept. If you have an ideal group of men, then people will

automatically learn. That is wanted. But don't mind, I don't find any

ideal group of men. Even in the priests they are going to hospital for

their drinking habit. I saw in sometimes before in a hospital, five

thousand patients, alcoholic patients, priest. Priest should be ideal

character. And they are advocating homosex. So where is the ideal

character men? If the priestly class they are going to hospital for

drinking habit, and they are allowing man-to-man marriage and homosex,

then where is ideal character?

: But homosexual is a sickness.

 

Devotee: He said it's an illness.

: It's an illness. It's just like a person can't see, you

would punish him for not seeing. You can't punish a person for being

homosexual. That our society says.

Prabhupada: Well, anyway, the priestly class, sanctioning homosex.

: Pardon?

 

Prabhupada: Sanctioning. They are allowing homosex. And there was

report that man and man was married by the priest. In New York there

is a paper, Watchtower. That is a Christian paper. I have seen in that

paper. They are condemning it, that priest is allowing man-to-man

marriage. And they are passing resolution, homosex is passed, "All

right." And in Perth you said that the students are discussing about

homosex, in favor of homosex. So where is the ideal character? If you

want something tangible business, train some people to become ideal

character. That is this Krsna consciousness movement.

: What you people say what ideal to you is not ideal to

somebody else?

 

Prabhupada: I am giving the example ideal character.

: Yeah, but that's one opinion.

 

Prabhupada: No. It will not depend on opinion. Opinion... What is the

value of opinion if the people are all asses? There is no opinion. One

should take as it is enjoined in the sastra. No opinion. What is the

use of taking opinion of an ass? So the people are trained up just

like dogs and asses, then what is the use of their opinion? If you are

to enforce, you must do like this. Just like when we introduced this

"No illicit sex." I never cared for their opinion. The opinion...

immediately there will be discussion. And what is the use of taking

their opinion? It must be done. That is the defect of Western

civilization. Vox populi, taking opinion of the public. But what is

the value of this public? Drunkards, smokers, meat-eaters,

woman-hunters. What is the... they are not first-class men. So what is

the use of such third-class, fourth-class men's opinion? We do not

advocate such opinion. What Krsna said, that is standard, that's all.

Krsna is the Supreme, and His version is final.

 

No opinion, no democracy. When you go to a physician, doctor, for

treatment, the physician does not place his prescription for opinion

of other patients: "Now I am prescribing this medicine for this

gentleman, now give me your opinion." Does he do that? The all

patients, what they will think? The physician is the perfect person.

Whatever he has written prescription, that's all. But here in the

Western... everything, public opinion. What is the use of such

opinion?

 

(SP's Room conversation with Director of Research of Dept. of Social

Welfare, May 21, 1975 Melbourne, Australia)

 

References

1. http://chakra.org/

2. http://chakra.org/discussions/GenFeb09_05.html

3. file://localhost/tmp/MYCiFpxQUW/BikvlA7ads.html#1

4. file://localhost/tmp/MYCiFpxQUW/BikvlA7ads.html#2

 

 

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