Guest guest Posted August 3, 2005 Report Share Posted August 3, 2005 I'd like to second that. That rivikism has even been discussed in ISKCON as if it had some merit is astounding in and of itself. As far as I am concerned the concept is nothing but disguised atheism and it should be treated as such. ys, jdd > All glories to SRILA PRABHUPADA! > Disciple means discipline. How can the neophyte disciple have such a > connection in the heart to perceive the important instructions that are > necessary for actual spiritual advancement? Actually, this ritvik thing is > nothing more than spiritual anarchy, a scapegoat for those that cannot > take discipline, for those that desire recognition and for those that > (unfortunately) are foolish and insincere. A guru has to chastise (and > praise) the disciple (sometimes) for his/her own good otherwise mental > speculation is the order of the day. The ritvik idea put forward by the > mental speculators is flawed since it does not afford total surrender to > ones diksha guru. There is the opt out clause whereby one can whimsically > run to Prabhupada on the pretext of taking shelter, but in reality one is > avoiding the very shelter that Prabhupada's has given by ignoring his > instructions on this matter. > We should ignore these fools, we should not waste our time. Instead we > should concentrate our efforts on becoming more Krishna conscious and to > become pure devotees. > Anyway, when the desert caravan passes a village and the dogs bark, who > takes notice? The dogs very boldly bark, but after all, they are just > dogs, it is their nature to be like that. We can have sympathy with their > covered dog like situation but the truth is 'you get what you desire and > what you deserve'. We chant Hare Krishna for their benefit, and then we > move on. I felt inspired to say something. > Hare Krishna! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2005 Report Share Posted August 3, 2005 Can somepne please explain what was authorised by Srila Prabhupada regarding initiations after his departure? Thank you Chaytanya > I'd like to second that. That rivikism has even been discussed in ISKCON > as > if it had some merit is astounding in and of itself. As far as I am > concerned the concept is nothing but disguised atheism and it should be > treated as such. > > ys, jdd > >> All glories to SRILA PRABHUPADA! >> Disciple means discipline. How can the neophyte disciple have such a >> connection in the heart to perceive the important instructions that are >> necessary for actual spiritual advancement? Actually, this ritvik thing >> is >> nothing more than spiritual anarchy, a scapegoat for those that cannot >> take discipline, for those that desire recognition and for those that >> (unfortunately) are foolish and insincere. A guru has to chastise (and >> praise) the disciple (sometimes) for his/her own good otherwise mental >> speculation is the order of the day. The ritvik idea put forward by the >> mental speculators is flawed since it does not afford total surrender to >> ones diksha guru. There is the opt out clause whereby one can >> whimsically >> run to Prabhupada on the pretext of taking shelter, but in reality one >> is >> avoiding the very shelter that Prabhupada's has given by ignoring his >> instructions on this matter. >> We should ignore these fools, we should not waste our time. Instead we >> should concentrate our efforts on becoming more Krishna conscious and to >> become pure devotees. >> Anyway, when the desert caravan passes a village and the dogs bark, who >> takes notice? The dogs very boldly bark, but after all, they are just >> dogs, it is their nature to be like that. We can have sympathy with >> their >> covered dog like situation but the truth is 'you get what you desire and >> what you deserve'. We chant Hare Krishna for their benefit, and then we >> move on. I felt inspired to say something. >> Hare Krishna! > > ----------------------- > To from this mailing list, send an email to: > Initiations.in.ISKCON-Owner (AT) pamho (DOT) net > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2005 Report Share Posted August 3, 2005 > Can somepne please explain what was authorised by Srila Prabhupada > regarding initiations after his departure? > > Thank you Study Srila Prabhupada's teachings and ISKCON's history and it will become very clear and self-evident what Srila Prabhupada authorized. Thank you ys, jdd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2005 Report Share Posted August 3, 2005 >Can somepne please explain what was authorised by Srila Prabhupada >regarding initiations after his departure? For a generic answer, you might like to read my short essay "Plain Vanilla Made Plainer," at <www.krishna.com/jas>. Here is a brief answer given by the GBC: > Srila Prabhupada consistently said that his disciples would > themselves become spiritual masters. Guru, sadhu, and sastra > all support this standard way of continuing the disciplic > succession. > > Srila Prabhupada said that his disciples would become > "regular gurus" and that each of their disciples would thus > be a "disciple of my disciple." > > On the strength of our Vaisnava tradition and the statements > of Srila Prabhupada, the GBC concludes that Srila Prabhupada > intended his disciples to be "regular gurus" after he > physically left us. I hope this helps answer your question. Hare Krsna. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 2005 Report Share Posted August 4, 2005 Dear Chaitanya, pamho, agtSP For your information Srila prabhupada ONLY authorised REPRESENTATIVES (RITVIKS)TO INITIATE ON HIS BEHALF for after his departure. Intrested to know more.....hmmm Srila Prabhupada has NOT, I repeat Not AUTHORISED any of his disciples to act as Diksha gurus. Evidence for this has NEVER been produced by the GBC to date. If you ask them this question all you will get is a waffled answer. PRACTICALLY ALL THE PRESENT GURUS IN ISKCON ARE EITHER SELF APPOINTED OR VOTED IN BY OTHER SELF APPOINTED GURUS. (A process that was neither approved nor practiced by Srila Prabhupada, especially since one devotee has responded to U and asked you to look at ISKCON's history) How foolish can he get. Don't expect to here the TRUTH from the ISKCON's GBC or their followers or from me. The Truth lies in Srila Prabhupada's own words..... intrested to know more, then please do read on. Good luck on you journey of understanding the truth on the REAL DIKSHA guru OF ISKCON namly HDG ACBSP. Remember not everyone is going to tell you the Truth since their name, fame and adoration are at stake here! At the present time a controversy is raging within the International Society for Krishna Consciousness (ISKCON) over who should be allowed to initiate new disciples. There are now some 70 ISKCON ‘gurus’ who are currently initiating, all of whom are co-defendants in a High Court action taken against them for usurping Srila Prabhupada from his requested position as ISKCON’s sole initiating Guru. The purpose of this message is to set out briefly the issues surrounding the explicit instructions Srila Prabhupada left on who the society’s initiating Guru should really be. The Final Order On July 9th 1977, four months before his physical departure, Srila Prabhupada issued a typed, signed directive via his secretary to all the leaders of ISKCON. This official policy directive set in place a system of initiations employing the use of ‘ritviks’, or ‘representatives of the acarya (guru)’. Srila Prabhupada instructed that this 'officiating acarya' system was to be instituted immediately, and run from that time onwards, or 'henceforward' - (this letter is reproduced at the end). This was his final order on how initiations should be conducted within ISKCON. As can be seen from reading the directive, the ritviks were to act only on Srila Prabhupada's behalf, new initiates all becoming his disciples. In his Last Will and Testament Srila Prabhupada also decreed that the system of management within ISKCON should not be changed. However: Immediately after Srila Prabhupada's physical departure, on November 14th 1977, the Governing Body Commission (GBC) for ISKCON disbanded the ritvik system. In it’s place the GBC set up a system in which they and their supporters could accept worship as though they themselves were as pure as God. Thus the perfect and exemplary Acarya, Srila Prabhupada, was replaced by 11 competing ‘gurus’ - (increased over the years to the current 80) - all vying for disciples, power and influence. Unsurprisingly this unauthorized guru system has been an embarrassing disaster practically from day one. Even now the entire GBC (which is comprised almost entirely of ‘gurus’) faces serious charges of neglect and abuse of devotee children in a massive law suit being brought against them in America by the same law firm that sued the Catholic church for over $100,000,000 on similar grounds. The longest serving former editor of ISKCON’s very own magazine Back To Godhead, His Holiness Jayadvaita Swami, summed up the behaviour of some ISKCON ‘gurus’ thus: (PLEASE NOTE:So far Jayadvaita's response to you has only repeated more waffle from the GBC without any CONCRETE EVEDENCE from Srila Prabhupada CONTRARY TO THAT given here) FACT: ISKCON gurus have opposed, oppressed and driven out many sincere Godbrothers and Godsisters. FACT: ISKCON gurus have usurped and misused money, and diverted other ISKCON resources for their own personal prestige and sense gratification. FACT: ISKCON gurus have had illicit sexual intercourse with both women and men, and possibly children as well..’ etc, etc ('Where the Ritvik People are Right, Jayadvaita Swami, 1996) Now the TRUTH! We demonstrate below how the GBC attempts to justify their insubordination through a mixture of misrepresentation and lies. Lie number 1 In order to explain away such diabolical behavior by their ‘gurus’, the GBC have for many years taught that members of the sacred disciplic succession, descending from Lord Sri Krishna Himself, can sometimes fall down from their elevated position. This is a serious philosophical heresy. Srila Prabhupada states the precise opposite: "A bona fide spiritual master is in the disciplic succession from time eternal and he does not deviate at all from the instructions of the Supreme Lord."(Bg. 4.42, purport) Srila Prabhupada taught that a guru would only fall down if he were not properly authorised to initiate: "...sometimes a spiritual master is not properly authorised to initiate and only on his own initiative becomes a spiritual master, he may be carried away by an accumulation of wealth and a large number of disciples." (NOD p116) Thus the very fact that many ISKCON ‘gurus’ have deviated proves they were never authorised to initiate in the first place. They were only ever authorised to act as ritviks, or officiating priests. Lie number 2 The Governing Body Commission (GBC) of ISKCON maintains that the July 9th order, which originally set in place the ritvik system, was only temporary, specifically meant to stop on Srila Prabhupada’s departure: ‘This temporary measure, put in place because of Srila Prabhupada's ill health, was designed to take care of a specific situation during his presence.’ (GBC approved author Drutakarma das ‘The Ritvik Heresy’) Merely reading the order itself easily disproves this assertion. As the reader will note, nowhere in the July 9th letter does it state that the ritvik system was ‘temporary’, or that it was only set up because of Srila Prabhupada’s ‘ill health’. Neither does the order say it is to terminate on his departure, as is admitted by the GBC and their supporters: ‘The July 9 letter does not directly mention Prabhupada's departure.’ (‘The Ritvik Heresy’) The obvious question then is - why does the GBC think the system was meant to stop on Srila Prabhupada’s departure when the letter does not even mention departure? Indeed, nowhere did Srila Prabhupada ever say or write that the ‘ritvik’ system was only make-shift, stop-gap, temporary or subject to termination by the GBC. It is an axiom of spiritual life that the order of the guru cannot be whimsically ignored or stopped. So why was this done with the July 9th directive? Lie number 3 The GBC teaches that the spiritual master must be physically present on the same planet as the disciple in order for initiation to take place. Yet nowhere is this principle stated in Srila Prabhupada’s teachings. On the contrary there is one famous example in the Bhagavad Gita, verse 4.1, where a guru in our disciplic succession passed on spiritual knowledge to a disciple* who was on an entirely different planet. Srila Prabhupada comments: "So there was no difficulty in communicating with Manu or Manu's son, Iksvaku. The communication was there, or the radio system was so nice that communication could be transferred from one planet to another." (SP Bg. Lecture, 24/8/68) Over and over again the GBC teaches that the physical presence of the spiritual master is vital to the guru-disciple relationship: ‘. a student approaches for initiation a spiritual master who is physically present.’ ’ (Drutakarma das ‘The Ritvik Heresy’) And yet Srila Prabhupada taught the exact opposite over and over again: ‘So we should associate by vibration, and not by the physical presence. That is real association’. (Lectures SB, 68/08/18) 'Such association with Krsna and the Spiritual Master should be association by vibration not physical presence. That is real association’. (Elevation to Krsna Consciousness, (BBT 1973), Page 57) ‘.one has to associate with liberated persons not directly, physically, but by understanding, through philosophy and logic, the problems of life. (SB 3:31:48) Furthermore, Srila Prabhupada practically demonstrated this principle by not personally attending or conducting the initiation ceremony for many hundreds of his disciples, nor even meeting them physically either before or after the initiation ceremony. Thus physical association with the Guru cannot be an essential principle of spiritual life since Srila Prabhupada did not practice it with many of his own disciples. *(Initiation or diksa (Sanskrit) is defined primarily as the transmission of transcendental knowledge from guru to disciple). Lie number 4 The GBC claims that Srila Prabhupada gave many generally applicable instructions for his disciples to all become diksa (initiating) gurus on his departure. In reality there are no general instructions to be initiating gurus, only instructing (siksa) gurus: "The GBC should all be the instructor gurus. I am the initiator guru, and you should be the instructor guru by teaching what I am teaching and doing what I am doing." (SP Letter to GBC member Madhudvisa, 4/8/75) It is true that Srila Prabhupada did many times ask his disciples to all become guru, but in the purports following the relevant scriptural basis for this request, he wrote: “It is best not to accept any disciples” (Chaitanya Charitamrta Madhya Lila 7.130, purport) There were a handful of times where Srila Prabhupada was dealing with ambitious deviant disciples in private letters (Tusta Krishna etc), asking them to at least wait until he left before grabbing their own disciples. Yet these letters were not made generally available till years after Srila Prabhupada’s departure (1986) and can thus not be used to countermand a general instruction issued to the entire movement in 1977. The fact that the GBC tries to use such personal letters to change institutional policy, and convince everyone that Srila Prabhupada was to be replaced, is a sign of their utter desperation. Below we see Srila Prabhupada gave a very different impression when he was directly asked about who would succeed him: Reporter: Who will succeed you when you die? Srila Prabhupada: I will never die! Devotees: Jaya! Haribol! Srila Prabhupada: I will live forever from my books and you will utilise. (Interview, Berkley, 17/7/75) Lie number 5 The GBC insists that Srila Prabhupada could not have wanted to continue initiating since this would mean ‘stopping the disciplic succession’. This is a false argument since Srila Prabhupada can only remain the current link in the disciplic succession for as long as the institution in which his order was given continues to exist. Previous current links have remained current for thousands, or even millions of years, whereas Srila Prabhupada shall only remain the current guru for as long as ISKCON exists. Thus it is clear the GBC thinks it perfectly acceptable to terminate important instructions and just invent its own philosophy along the way as the need arises. This is not the behaviour of a disciple, what to speak of a guru. I HOPE THIS HELPS. AGTSP! ys Revatinandan das ps: IF YOU WANT TO KNOW MORE PLEASE READ "THE FINAL ORDER" by Krisnakant Desai available freely from the iskconirm.com web site --- cthankey (AT) blueyonder (DOT) co.uk wrote: > Can somepne please explain what was authorised by > Srila Prabhupada > regarding initiations after his departure? > > Thank you > > Chaytanya > > > > I'd like to second that. That rivikism has even > been discussed in ISKCON > > as > > if it had some merit is astounding in and of > itself. As far as I am > > concerned the concept is nothing but disguised > atheism and it should be > > treated as such. > > > > ys, jdd > > > >> All glories to SRILA PRABHUPADA! > >> Disciple means discipline. How can the neophyte > disciple have such a > >> connection in the heart to perceive the important > instructions that are > >> necessary for actual spiritual advancement? > Actually, this ritvik thing > >> is > >> nothing more than spiritual anarchy, a scapegoat > for those that cannot > >> take discipline, for those that desire > recognition and for those that > >> (unfortunately) are foolish and insincere. A guru > has to chastise (and > >> praise) the disciple (sometimes) for his/her own > good otherwise mental > >> speculation is the order of the day. The ritvik > idea put forward by the > >> mental speculators is flawed since it does not > afford total surrender to > >> ones diksha guru. There is the opt out clause > whereby one can > >> whimsically > >> run to Prabhupada on the pretext of taking > shelter, but in reality one > >> is > >> avoiding the very shelter that Prabhupada's has > given by ignoring his > >> instructions on this matter. > >> We should ignore these fools, we should not waste > our time. Instead we > >> should concentrate our efforts on becoming more > Krishna conscious and to > >> become pure devotees. > >> Anyway, when the desert caravan passes a village > and the dogs bark, who > >> takes notice? The dogs very boldly bark, but > after all, they are just > >> dogs, it is their nature to be like that. We can > have sympathy with > >> their > >> covered dog like situation but the truth is 'you > get what you desire and > >> what you deserve'. We chant Hare Krishna for > their benefit, and then we > >> move on. I felt inspired to say something. > >> Hare Krishna! > > > > > ----------------------- > > To from this mailing list, send an > email to: > > Initiations.in.ISKCON-Owner (AT) pamho (DOT) net > > > > > > > > ----------------------- > To from this mailing list, send an email > to: > Initiations.in.ISKCON-Owner (AT) pamho (DOT) net > _________ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Security Centre. http://uk.security. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 2005 Report Share Posted August 4, 2005 >Can somepne please explain what was authorised by Srila Prabhupada >regarding initiations after his departure? Dear everyone, Pamho. Hare Krishna! All glories to Srila Prabhupada! With due respect: It is a mistake that Srila Prabhupada authorised his disciples to become 'regular diksa gurus". A general principle that is mentioned by Srila Prabhupada, is used here to proof that he did follow that same general principle. But Srila Prabhupada did not do so.... The reasons, I think, have become very obvious in the following years: his disciples were not qualified to take up that position... It would be nice if these general statements could be mentioned here and studied in context... When I read the final conversations of Srila Prabhupada, specifically dealing with how Initiations were to be continued in his absence: the clear answer is through the ritvik system... But it is very unfortunate that those who are supposed to be the intelligent leaders of the Hare Krishna Movement, fail to understand this simple instruction, and instead reason in such a way, as to mislead everyon into thinking that Srila Prabhupada threw his movement to the dogs, to be torn apart in pieces and trampled over............ No matter how much reason is coming their way. No matter how obvious is the deviation, they will not admit their wrong. Their intelligence being covered by illusion, in the garb of 'genuine concern with Sril Prabhupada's desire' is helping them to continue with firm determination on the road that will destroy ISKCON............if the Lord doesn not Himself interfere........ Those who are promoting Srila Prabhupada's final and binding instructions on diksa in iskcon, are being ridiculed, attacked and considered nuisance. Anyway, I am not going to waste my breath on this one-sided self-gratificatory postings! What is the use? your servant, Krishnapriya dd ************************************************************************* <For a generic answer, you might like to read my short essay "Plain Vanilla Made Plainer," at <www.krishna.com/jas>. Here is a brief answer given by the GBC: > Srila Prabhupada consistently said that his disciples would > themselves become spiritual masters. Guru, sadhu, and sastra > all support this standard way of continuing the disciplic > succession. > > Srila Prabhupada said that his disciples would become > "regular gurus" and that each of their disciples would thus > be a "disciple of my disciple." > > On the strength of our Vaisnava tradition and the statements > of Srila Prabhupada, the GBC concludes that Srila Prabhupada > intended his disciples to be "regular gurus" after he > physically left us. I hope this helps answer your question. Hare Krsna. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 2005 Report Share Posted August 4, 2005 Dear Revatinandana Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP! > Srila Prabhupada has NOT, I repeat Not AUTHORISED any of his disciples to > act as Diksha gurus. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur has not authorized any of his disciples to be the next acarya. (In the purport to CC Adi 12.8 Srila Prabhupada said: "Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, at the time of his departure, requested all his disciples to form a governing body and conduct missionary activities cooperatively. He did not instruct a particular man to become the next acarya.") But still you accept Srila Prabhupada as the acarya (= diksa guru). So your argument is void. Your statement is also incorrect because in this conference Sankarsana Prabhu several times wrote that he has been instructed by Srila Prabhupada to become initiating guru after his departure. Isn't that the authorization? Before you talk about authorization, please answer following questions: What would you accept as an authorization? Does it have to come in writing? Must the authorization be in some way recorded? Must the authorization be given in public? etc. Please explain to us what you would accept as an authorization, and then show us that this authorization is there for Srila Prabhupada but for none of his disciples. ys Ramakanta dasa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 2005 Report Share Posted August 4, 2005 Dear Krishna Priya Mataji, PAMHO. AGTSP! > With due respect: It is a mistake that Srila Prabhupada authorised his > disciples to become 'regular diksa gurus". Probably you wanted to write "It is a mistake TO ASSUME that ...", or similar, not that Srila Prabhupada made a mistake. To you I have the same questions that I just asks Revatinandana Prabhu. > But it is very unfortunate that those who are supposed to be the > intelligent leaders of the Hare Krishna Movement, fail to understand this > simple instruction, and instead reason in such a way, as to mislead > everyon into thinking that Srila Prabhupada threw his movement to the > dogs, to be torn apart in pieces and trampled over............ Oh, you are more intelligent than the leaders of the Hare Krishna Movement?! ys Ramakanta dasa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 5, 2005 Report Share Posted August 5, 2005 Ramakanta et all; "What would you accept as an authorization?" Ramakant asks. Just like a policeman catches a thief in a building and asks him "Excuse me sir, but do you have authorization to be here?" and when the thief replies, "Well officer, what kind of authorization would you like?" The policeman knows right away that he doesn't have the requirements and can make an arrest. An honest man would immeadiately show the policeman the authorization on request. Ramakants post just proves our point that there is no authorization from Srila Prabhupada for successor diksa gurus in ISKCON. "Ramakanta (das) HKS (PAMHO.NET SysOp) (Zurich - CH)" <Ramakanta.HKS (AT) pamho (DOT) net> wrote: Dear Revatinandana Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP! > Srila Prabhupada has NOT, I repeat Not AUTHORISED any of his disciples to > act as Diksha gurus. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur has not authorized any of his disciples to be the next acarya. (In the purport to CC Adi 12.8 Srila Prabhupada said: "Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, at the time of his departure, requested all his disciples to form a governing body and conduct missionary activities cooperatively. He did not instruct a particular man to become the next acarya.") But still you accept Srila Prabhupada as the acarya (= diksa guru). So your argument is void. Your statement is also incorrect because in this conference Sankarsana Prabhu several times wrote that he has been instructed by Srila Prabhupada to become initiating guru after his departure. Isn't that the authorization? Before you talk about authorization, please answer following questions: What would you accept as an authorization? Does it have to come in writing? Must the authorization be in some way recorded? Must the authorization be given in public? etc. Please explain to us what you would accept as an authorization, and then show us that this authorization is there for Srila Prabhupada but for none of his disciples. ys Ramakanta dasa ----------------------- To from this mailing list, send an email to: Initiations.in.ISKCON-Owner (AT) pamho (DOT) net Learn the truth about the ISKCON guru hoax ISKCON Revival Movement - http://www.iskconirm.com Start your day with - make it your home page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 6, 2005 Report Share Posted August 6, 2005 Dear Madhusudana Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP! > Just like a policeman catches a thief in a building and asks him "Excuse > me sir, but do you have authorization to be here?" and when the thief > replies, "Well officer, what kind of authorization would you like?" The > policeman knows right away that he doesn't have the requirements and can > make an arrest. An honest man would immeadiately show the policeman the > authorization on request. That is a good example. Only a policeman is qualified and authorized to control and arrest people. If you were the policeman, you would arrest the wrong persons because you don't know what the authorization is. So please show us that you are qualified to judge the ISKCON gurus by telling us how the authorization to initiate looks like. > Ramakants post just proves our point that there is no authorization from > Srila Prabhupada for successor diksa gurus in ISKCON. I have already posted the authorization several times in this conference. Here it is again: Nectar of Devotion, chapter 7: The six agents of sense gratification are the tongue, the genitals, the belly, anger, the mind and words. Anyone who has practiced controlling these six is permitted to make disciples all over the world. Nectar of Instruction, verse 1: A sober person who can tolerate the urge to speak, the mind’s demands, the actions of anger and the urges of the tongue, belly and genitals is qualified to make disciples all over the world. ys Ramakanta dasa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2005 Report Share Posted August 8, 2005 Ramakant prabhu. Pamho. AgtSP. "That is a good example." Says Ramakant prabhu, so let us continue with this example..... The thief has been caught, he is desperate now, so he tries some bluff, maybe the policeman is stupid. Since not all policemen become policemen through qualification, some get the job through nepotism or such like. So he pulls out his driving license and points to a statement which says, "Joe Smith is hereby authorised by the government..." However the policeman is no fool, he points out to the thief that the government has authorised Mr. Smith to drive a car NOT to be in the building. So the bluff fails. Ramakant when pressed for authorization for the present diksa gurus in ISKCON has in reply tried the bluff tactic out of desperation. Let us look at his quotes which he claims is authorization for diksa gurus in ISKCON. 1] "Nectar of Devotion, chapter 7: The six agents of sense gratification are the tongue, the genitals, the belly, anger, the mind and words. Anyone who has practiced controlling these six is permitted to make disciples all over the world." This is a statement which outlines the qualifications of the diksa guru and the principle that such a qualified person is permitted to make disciples. In other words Srila Prabhupada is hereby outlining the principle. Since there is NO mention of authorization in the quote. Just like the government states the principle that when you reach the age of 17 you are permitted to drive a car.... BUT you have to gain authorization by passing your driving test. Thus merely stating the principle is NOT in itself the authorization. 2] "Nectar of Instruction, verse 1: A sober person who can tolerate the urge to speak, the mind's demands, the actions of anger and the urges of the tongue, belly and genitals is qualified to make disciples all over the world." This quote is as before stating the principle, that if someone can do such & such then he is qualified to make disciples. Again there is no mention here of authorization to do so. This quote again states the qualification NOT authorization. However he is not alone in adopting this bluff tactic to maintain the Guru hoax. This is a question which has been asked of ISKCON members for quite some time now. Needless to say the replies are various and Ramakanta has merely added to the diversity of answers. But I ask .... How can there be many different versions of the truth? Decide for yourselves what really happened, because the GBC and ISKCON leaders can't! Let's begin with WHEN were the Guru hoaxers authorised to become Gurus? 1) May 28th, 1977 "The present paper will show that on May 28th, 1977, Srila Prabhupada ordered his disciples to become initiating spiritual masters." (Disciple of My Disciple, p2, Badrinarayana Das, Umapati Swami et al., 1997) 2) July 7th, 1977 "On July 7th. Prabhupada gave the list of those he "chose." The process was already clear. First on his behalf, then regular guru." (Continuing the Parampara, Sivarama Swami, p20, 1994) 3) July 8th, 1977 "The appointment of July 8th which is the only appointment on record is the appointment of ritviks...Most devotees who have studied this transcribed conversation agree that it is reasonable to conclude that Prabhupada expected those who officiated as ritviks in his presence would continue after his disappearance as diksa-gurus under his order." ('Under My Order': Reflections on the Guru in ISKCON', Ravindra Svarupa Das, 1985) 4) July 9th, 1977 "Thus the July 9 letter was not, as falsely claimed by the author, a "final order," a "policy statement on how he wanted initiations to run within ISKCON," but merely an interim order, which got the named persons functioning as gurus even in his own presence yet while still observing the etiquette." (Prabhupada's Order, Appendix 3, GBC 1998) Furthermore HOW were the Guru hoaxers authorised to become Gurus? 1) By Srila Prabhupada directly "Here Prabhupada says to the entire leadership of the Krishna consciousness movement (the GBC, sannyasis, and presidents gathered at Mayapur) that he expects them to become acaryas (gurus) who will initiate their own disciples...So it is abundantly clear that Prabhupada is speaking throughout the April 6, 1975 lecture of acaryas who will initiate disciples" (Drutakarama Das, The Phantom Order, 1998) "The day Srila Prabhupada gave sannyasa to Bhakti Caru Swami, he told him, 'Now that you are a sannyasi, you can give initiation. But as long as the spiritual master is alive one doesn't give initiation. That is the etiquette.'" (Gurus and Initiations in ISKCON, GBC, 1995) 2) By the GBC "Srila Prabhupada wanted the GBC to decide who would initiate" (Bhakti Caru Swami Letter, 24 September 1993, New Mayapur, France) "Your diksa guru is giving you diksa because the institution of ISKCON decided that he should give diksa." (Bhakti Caru Swami, Text PAMHO6829041, Monday 19 May 2003) WHO was authorised to be Guru? 1) 11 devotees authorised to be Guru "Srila Prabhupada named eleven devotees to give diksa" [as initiating gurus] (Sivarama Swami, Siksa outside ISKCON?, p.28, Lal Publishing, 2002) 2) No one authorised to be Guru "Srila Prabhupada did not want to name anyone as his successor or successors" (Bhakti Caru Swami Letter, 24 September 1993, New Mayapur, France) Was Guru authorisation clear? 1) It was very clear "Srila Prabhupada made it quite clear that they would initiate after his disappearance" (Bhakti Caru Swami Letter, 24 September 1993, New Mayapur, France) "But there never has been any doubt that Srila Prabhupada clearly ordered his followers to carry on the parampara as regular gurus." (Ritvik Catechism: Questions and Answers on Ritvik, GBC, 1998) 2) It was very unclear "Srila Prabhupda's statements in this issue appear to be somewhat vague, which is very unusual for Srila Prabhupada" (Bhakti Caru Swami Letter, 24 September 1993, New Mayapur, France) "I must also admit that Srila Prabhupada did not say anything very clearly about how the initiation system in ISKCON should be after his disappearance from this planet." (Bhakti Caru Swami, Day 3, LA Seminar, 'Questions and Answers', Published on June 11, 2000) Thus ISKCON has not been able to give one clear answer for when, how or who - was authorised to be Guru. Neither are they even clear, if the authorisation was clear! In answer to the question, "how can there be many versions of the truth?" The answer of course is there can't be. There can only be one version of the truth by definition. And this version has been given consistently in The Final Order, as well as repeated in the pages of Back To Prabhupada magazine; and here it is: "Srila Prabhupada alone shall be the diksa (initiating) Guru for as long as ISKCON exists. This is supported both by his last written directive on the subject of initiations issued to all ISKCON GBCs and Temple Presidents, and also by his Last Will and Testament." Simple. One Fact. One Truth. One Guru. One united and glorious ISKCON. The very fact that the Guru hoaxers and bluffers have had to concoct many contradictory and different stories to support their Guru system is one of the strongest evidences that we are dealing with a hoax. Just as with any complex and lengthy crime or hoax, the criminals usually struggle to get their 'story straight' between them, and due to the propensity of the conditioned soul to make mistakes, discrepancies in the story of the hoax will naturally occur as the hoax is perpetrated. If Srila Prabhupada really had authorised diksa Gurus to replace him in ISKCON, why can't the GBC simply state, with one voice, for all time, when, how and who was authorised? Why haven't they been able to state it for almost 30 years now? Simple, because no such Gurus were ever authorised! Learn the truth about the ISKCON guru hoax ISKCON Revival Movement - http://www.iskconirm.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2005 Report Share Posted August 8, 2005 In Mayapur Srila Prabhupada predicted that ISKCON would have ten million initiating gurus (acharyas). These poor ritvik friends think that Srila Prabhupada was wrong. I pity them. failure (AT) pamho (DOT) net [failure (AT) pamho (DOT) net] On Behalf Of Madhusudana Dasa Monday, August 08, 2005 8:57 AM Ramakanta (das) HKS (PAMHO.NET SysOp) (Zurich - CH); Revatinandana; cthankey (AT) blueyonder (DOT) co.uk Cc: Initiations in ISKCON Re: Continuing the disciplic succession Ramakant prabhu. Pamho. AgtSP. "That is a good example." Says Ramakant prabhu, so let us continue with this example..... The thief has been caught, he is desperate now, so he tries some bluff, maybe the policeman is stupid. Since not all policemen become policemen through qualification, some get the job through nepotism or such like. So he pulls out his driving license and points to a statement which says, "Joe Smith is hereby authorised by the government..." However the policeman is no fool, he points out to the thief that the government has authorised Mr. Smith to drive a car NOT to be in the building. So the bluff fails. Ramakant when pressed for authorization for the present diksa gurus in ISKCON has in reply tried the bluff tactic out of desperation. Let us look at his quotes which he claims is authorization for diksa gurus in ISKCON. 1] "Nectar of Devotion, chapter 7: The six agents of sense gratification are the tongue, the genitals, the belly, anger, the mind and words. Anyone who has practiced controlling these six is permitted to make disciples all over the world." This is a statement which outlines the qualifications of the diksa guru and the principle that such a qualified person is permitted to make disciples. In other words Srila Prabhupada is hereby outlining the principle. Since there is NO mention of authorization in the quote. Just like the government states the principle that when you reach the age of 17 you are permitted to drive a car.... BUT you have to gain authorization by passing your driving test. Thus merely stating the principle is NOT in itself the authorization. 2] "Nectar of Instruction, verse 1: A sober person who can tolerate the urge to speak, the mind's demands, the actions of anger and the urges of the tongue, belly and genitals is qualified to make disciples all over the world." This quote is as before stating the principle, that if someone can do such & such then he is qualified to make disciples. Again there is no mention here of authorization to do so. This quote again states the qualification NOT authorization. However he is not alone in adopting this bluff tactic to maintain the Guru hoax. This is a question which has been asked of ISKCON members for quite some time now. Needless to say the replies are various and Ramakanta has merely added to the diversity of answers. But I ask .... How can there be many different versions of the truth? Decide for yourselves what really happened, because the GBC and ISKCON leaders can't! Let's begin with WHEN were the Guru hoaxers authorised to become Gurus? 1) May 28th, 1977 "The present paper will show that on May 28th, 1977, Srila Prabhupada ordered his disciples to become initiating spiritual masters." (Disciple of My Disciple, p2, Badrinarayana Das, Umapati Swami et al., 1997) 2) July 7th, 1977 "On July 7th. Prabhupada gave the list of those he "chose." The process was already clear. First on his behalf, then regular guru." (Continuing the Parampara, Sivarama Swami, p20, 1994) 3) July 8th, 1977 "The appointment of July 8th which is the only appointment on record is the appointment of ritviks...Most devotees who have studied this transcribed conversation agree that it is reasonable to conclude that Prabhupada expected those who officiated as ritviks in his presence would continue after his disappearance as diksa-gurus under his order." ('Under My Order': Reflections on the Guru in ISKCON', Ravindra Svarupa Das, 1985) 4) July 9th, 1977 "Thus the July 9 letter was not, as falsely claimed by the author, a "final order," a "policy statement on how he wanted initiations to run within ISKCON," but merely an interim order, which got the named persons functioning as gurus even in his own presence yet while still observing the etiquette." (Prabhupada's Order, Appendix 3, GBC 1998) Furthermore HOW were the Guru hoaxers authorised to become Gurus? 1) By Srila Prabhupada directly "Here Prabhupada says to the entire leadership of the Krishna consciousness movement (the GBC, sannyasis, and presidents gathered at Mayapur) that he expects them to become acaryas (gurus) who will initiate their own disciples...So it is abundantly clear that Prabhupada is speaking throughout the April 6, 1975 lecture of acaryas who will initiate disciples" (Drutakarama Das, The Phantom Order, 1998) "The day Srila Prabhupada gave sannyasa to Bhakti Caru Swami, he told him, 'Now that you are a sannyasi, you can give initiation. But as long as the spiritual master is alive one doesn't give initiation. That is the etiquette.'" (Gurus and Initiations in ISKCON, GBC, 1995) 2) By the GBC "Srila Prabhupada wanted the GBC to decide who would initiate" (Bhakti Caru Swami Letter, 24 September 1993, New Mayapur, France) "Your diksa guru is giving you diksa because the institution of ISKCON decided that he should give diksa." (Bhakti Caru Swami, Text PAMHO6829041, Monday 19 May 2003) WHO was authorised to be Guru? 1) 11 devotees authorised to be Guru "Srila Prabhupada named eleven devotees to give diksa" [as initiating gurus] (Sivarama Swami, Siksa outside ISKCON?, p.28, Lal Publishing, 2002) 2) No one authorised to be Guru "Srila Prabhupada did not want to name anyone as his successor or successors" (Bhakti Caru Swami Letter, 24 September 1993, New Mayapur, France) Was Guru authorisation clear? 1) It was very clear "Srila Prabhupada made it quite clear that they would initiate after his disappearance" (Bhakti Caru Swami Letter, 24 September 1993, New Mayapur, France) "But there never has been any doubt that Srila Prabhupada clearly ordered his followers to carry on the parampara as regular gurus." (Ritvik Catechism: Questions and Answers on Ritvik, GBC, 1998) 2) It was very unclear "Srila Prabhupda's statements in this issue appear to be somewhat vague, which is very unusual for Srila Prabhupada" (Bhakti Caru Swami Letter, 24 September 1993, New Mayapur, France) "I must also admit that Srila Prabhupada did not say anything very clearly about how the initiation system in ISKCON should be after his disappearance from this planet." (Bhakti Caru Swami, Day 3, LA Seminar, 'Questions and Answers', Published on June 11, 2000) Thus ISKCON has not been able to give one clear answer for when, how or who - was authorised to be Guru. Neither are they even clear, if the authorisation was clear! In answer to the question, "how can there be many versions of the truth?" The answer of course is there can't be. There can only be one version of the truth by definition. And this version has been given consistently in The Final Order, as well as repeated in the pages of Back To Prabhupada magazine; and here it is: "Srila Prabhupada alone shall be the diksa (initiating) Guru for as long as ISKCON exists. This is supported both by his last written directive on the subject of initiations issued to all ISKCON GBCs and Temple Presidents, and also by his Last Will and Testament." Simple. One Fact. One Truth. One Guru. One united and glorious ISKCON. The very fact that the Guru hoaxers and bluffers have had to concoct many contradictory and different stories to support their Guru system is one of the strongest evidences that we are dealing with a hoax. Just as with any complex and lengthy crime or hoax, the criminals usually struggle to get their 'story straight' between them, and due to the propensity of the conditioned soul to make mistakes, discrepancies in the story of the hoax will naturally occur as the hoax is perpetrated. If Srila Prabhupada really had authorised diksa Gurus to replace him in ISKCON, why can't the GBC simply state, with one voice, for all time, when, how and who was authorised? Why haven't they been able to state it for almost 30 years now? Simple, because no such Gurus were ever authorised! Learn the truth about the ISKCON guru hoax ISKCON Revival Movement - http://www.iskconirm.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 9, 2005 Report Share Posted August 9, 2005 Dear Madhusudana Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP! > This is a statement which outlines the qualifications > of the diksa guru and the principle that such a > qualified person is permitted to make disciples. In > other words Srila Prabhupada is hereby outlining the > principle. Since there is NO mention of authorization > in the quote. Just like the government states the > principle that when you reach the age of 17 you are > permitted to drive a car.... BUT you have to gain > authorization by passing your driving test. Thus > merely stating the principle is NOT in itself the > authorization. Please confirm this by a quote from guru, sadhu or sastra. Otherwise I will discard your statement as speculation from someone who is not qualified. In the rest of your text you have not explained how the authorization to initiate looks like. You just evaded my question. So you are not qualified and not authorized to judge the ISKCON gurus. Please let qualified persons do that. Please stop your bluff of playing policeman and presenting yourself as someone who has knowledge about authorizations to initiate. ys Ramakanta dasa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 9, 2005 Report Share Posted August 9, 2005 Where is the government document that says that 17 year olds are permitted to drive cars? Ramakanta (das) HKS (PAMHO.NET SysOp) (Zurich - CH) [Ramakanta.HKS (AT) pamho (DOT) net] Monday, August 08, 2005 6:17 PM Madhusudana Dasa; Revatinandana; cthankey (AT) blueyonder (DOT) co.uk Cc: Initiations in ISKCON Re: Continuing the disciplic succession Dear Madhusudana Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP! > This is a statement which outlines the qualifications of the diksa > guru and the principle that such a qualified person is permitted to > make disciples. In other words Srila Prabhupada is hereby outlining > the principle. Since there is NO mention of authorization in the > quote. Just like the government states the principle that when you > reach the age of 17 you are permitted to drive a car.... BUT you have > to gain authorization by passing your driving test. Thus merely > stating the principle is NOT in itself the authorization. Please confirm this by a quote from guru, sadhu or sastra. Otherwise I will discard your statement as speculation from someone who is not qualified. In the rest of your text you have not explained how the authorization to initiate looks like. You just evaded my question. So you are not qualified and not authorized to judge the ISKCON gurus. Please let qualified persons do that. Please stop your bluff of playing policeman and presenting yourself as someone who has knowledge about authorizations to initiate. ys Ramakanta dasa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2005 Report Share Posted August 11, 2005 Ramakant et al. The situation is this, Ramakant has presented the following quotes as authorisation for the present ISKCON gurus. 1] "Nectar of Devotion, chapter 7: The six agents of sense gratification are the tongue, the genitals, the belly, anger, the mind and words. Anyone who has practiced controlling these six is permitted to make disciples all over the world." This is a statement which outlines the qualifications of the diksa guru and the principle that such a qualified person is permitted to make disciples. In other words Srila Prabhupada is hereby outlining the principle. Since there is NO mention of authorization in the quote. Just like the government states the principle that when you reach the age of 17 you are permitted to drive a car.... BUT you have to gain authorization by passing your driving test. Thus merely stating the principle is NOT in itself the authorization. 2] "Nectar of Instruction, verse 1: A sober person who can tolerate the urge to speak, the mind's demands, the actions of anger and the urges of the tongue, belly and genitals is qualified to make disciples all over the world." This quote is as before stating the principle, that if someone can do such & such then he is qualified to make disciples. Again there is no mention here of authorization to do so. This quote again states the qualification NOT authorization. He has challenged my conclusions, as above, which are concluded according to reason and logic. Challenging, "Please confirm this by a quote from guru, sadhu or sastra." Srila Prabhupada still had not given the diksa guru order even as late as May 28th, 1977 ("On my order, [...] But by my order, [...] When I order"). And this situation remained unchanged until his departure. The use of 'when' means something that has not yet happened, and that therefore that order of authorisation had yet to be given. Therefore it is as previously stated. Learn the truth about the ISKCON guru hoax ISKCON Revival Movement - http://www.iskconirm.com __ Start your day with - make it your home page http://www./r/hs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2005 Report Share Posted August 11, 2005 --- "Sankarsana (das) ACBSP (Austin, Texas - USA)" <Sankarsana.ACBSP (AT) pamho (DOT) net> wrote: > In Mayapur Srila Prabhupada predicted that ISKCON > would > have ten million initiating gurus (acharyas). These > poor > ritvik friends think that Srila Prabhupada was > wrong. I > pity them. "And to become acarya is not very difficult. [...] amara ajnaya guru hana tara ei desa, yare dekha tare kaha krsna-upadesa: "By following My order, you become guru." [...] Then, in future... suppose you have got now ten thousand. We shall expand to hundred thousand. That is required. Then hundred thousand to million; and million to ten million." (SP C.c. Lecture, 6/4/75, Mayapur) It has already been demonstrated that Lord Caitanya's instruction was for everyone to preach vigorously, make lots of Krsna conscious followers, but not to take disciples. This point is re-inforced where Srila Prabhupada encourages his disciples to make many more devotees. It is significant that Srila Prabhupada states "suppose you have got now ten thousand..." (i.e. in Srila Prabhupada's presence). From this, it is clear he is talking about Krsna conscious followers, not 'disciples of his disciples', since the main point of the lecture was that they should not initiate in his presence. The implication being then, that just as at that time there may have been around ten thousand followers of Krsna Consciousness, so in the future millions more would be added. The ritvik system was to ensure that when these followers became suitably qualified for initiation, they could receive diksa from Srila Prabhupada, just as they could when he gave the above lecture. ("The Final Order", p12-15) Learn the truth about the ISKCON guru hoax ISKCON Revival Movement - http://www.iskconirm.com __ Start your day with - make it your home page http://www./r/hs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2005 Report Share Posted August 11, 2005 You have stated, "It has already been demonstrated that Lord Caitanya's instruction was for everyone to preach vigorously, make lots of Krsna conscious followers, but not to take disciples." If this were the case the disciplic succession would have stopped with Lord Caitanya. There would be no more gurus after Him. failure (AT) pamho (DOT) net [failure (AT) pamho (DOT) net] On Behalf Of Madhusudana Dasa Thursday, August 11, 2005 6:33 AM Sankarsana (das) ACBSP (Austin, Texas - USA) Cc: Initiations in ISKCON RE: Continuing the disciplic succession --- "Sankarsana (das) ACBSP (Austin, Texas - USA)" <Sankarsana.ACBSP (AT) pamho (DOT) net> wrote: > In Mayapur Srila Prabhupada predicted that ISKCON would have ten > million initiating gurus (acharyas). These poor ritvik friends think > that Srila Prabhupada was wrong. I pity them. "And to become acarya is not very difficult. [...] amara ajnaya guru hana tara ei desa, yare dekha tare kaha krsna-upadesa: "By following My order, you become guru." [...] Then, in future... suppose you have got now ten thousand. We shall expand to hundred thousand. That is required. Then hundred thousand to million; and million to ten million." (SP C.c. Lecture, 6/4/75, Mayapur) It has already been demonstrated that Lord Caitanya's instruction was for everyone to preach vigorously, make lots of Krsna conscious followers, but not to take disciples. This point is re-inforced where Srila Prabhupada encourages his disciples to make many more devotees. It is significant that Srila Prabhupada states "suppose you have got now ten thousand..." (i.e. in Srila Prabhupada's presence). From this, it is clear he is talking about Krsna conscious followers, not 'disciples of his disciples', since the main point of the lecture was that they should not initiate in his presence. The implication being then, that just as at that time there may have been around ten thousand followers of Krsna Consciousness, so in the future millions more would be added. The ritvik system was to ensure that when these followers became suitably qualified for initiation, they could receive diksa from Srila Prabhupada, just as they could when he gave the above lecture. ("The Final Order", p12-15) Learn the truth about the ISKCON guru hoax ISKCON Revival Movement - http://www.iskconirm.com __ Start your day with - make it your home page http://www./r/hs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2005 Report Share Posted August 11, 2005 Sankarsana wrote... > > In Mayapur Srila Prabhupada predicted that ISKCON > would have ten > > million initiating gurus (acharyas). These poor > ritvik friends think > > that Srila Prabhupada was wrong. How can the 10,000 refer to diksa Gurus when Srila Prabhupada says suppose "NOW we have 10,000." WHERE were these 10,000 Diksa Gurus and WHO were they? The 10,000 cannot be referring to Diksa Gurus since SP was speaking of what was present in his presence. So if the 10,000 doesn't refer to diksa Gurus, then neither does its expansion to 10 million. So we can see that it is Sankarsana that's got it wrong. If you concede this point we can then move on to your last post. --- "Sankarsana (das) ACBSP (Austin, Texas - USA)" <Sankarsana.ACBSP (AT) pamho (DOT) net> wrote: > You have stated, "It has already been demonstrated > that Lord Caitanya's > instruction > was for everyone to preach vigorously, make lots of > Krsna conscious > followers, but > not to take disciples." If this were the case the > disciplic succession > would have > stopped with Lord Caitanya. There would be no more > gurus after Him. > > > > > failure (AT) pamho (DOT) net [failure (AT) pamho (DOT) net] > On Behalf Of Madhusudana > Dasa > Thursday, August 11, 2005 6:33 AM > Sankarsana (das) ACBSP (Austin, Texas - USA) > Cc: Initiations in ISKCON > RE: Continuing the disciplic succession > > --- "Sankarsana (das) ACBSP (Austin, Texas - USA)" > <Sankarsana.ACBSP (AT) pamho (DOT) net> wrote: > > > In Mayapur Srila Prabhupada predicted that ISKCON > would have ten > > million initiating gurus (acharyas). These poor > ritvik friends think > > that Srila Prabhupada was wrong. I pity them. > > > > "And to become acarya is not very difficult. [...] > amara ajnaya guru hana > tara ei desa, yare dekha tare kaha krsna-upadesa: > "By following My order, > you become guru." [...] Then, in future... suppose > you have got now ten > thousand. We shall expand to hundred thousand. > That is required. Then hundred thousand to million; > and million to ten million." (SP C.c. Lecture, > 6/4/75, Mayapur) > > It has already been demonstrated that Lord > Caitanya's instruction was for > everyone to preach vigorously, make lots of Krsna > conscious followers, but > not to take disciples. This point is re-inforced > where Srila Prabhupada > encourages his disciples to make many more devotees. > It is significant that > Srila Prabhupada states "suppose you have got now > ten thousand..." > (i.e. in Srila Prabhupada's presence). From this, it > is clear he is talking > about Krsna conscious followers, not 'disciples of > his disciples', since the > main point of the lecture was that they should not > initiate in his presence. > The implication being then, that just as at that > time there may have been > around ten thousand followers of Krsna > Consciousness, so in the future > millions more would be added. The ritvik system was > to ensure that when > these followers became suitably qualified for > initiation, they could receive > diksa from Srila Prabhupada, just as they could when > he gave the above > lecture. ("The Final Order", > p12-15) > > Learn the truth about the ISKCON guru hoax ISKCON > Revival Movement - > http://www.iskconirm.com > > > > __ > Start your day with - make it your home page > http://www./r/hs > > > > > > > ----------------------- > To from this mailing list, send an email > to: > Initiations.in.ISKCON-Owner (AT) pamho (DOT) net > Learn the truth about the ISKCON guru hoax ISKCON Revival Movement - http://www.iskconirm.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 2005 Report Share Posted August 12, 2005 > How can the 10,000 refer to diksa Gurus > when Srila Prabhupada says suppose "NOW we have > 10,000." WHERE were these 10,000 Diksa > Gurus and WHO were they? Come on! "Suppose you have got now ten thousand" does not mean "you have got now ten thousand". Didn't you notice the word "suppose" (to imagine, to assume to be true or real for the sake of argument or explanation)? Further, are you sure that Sankarsana Prabhu was referring to this conversation? ys Ramakanta dasa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 2005 Report Share Posted August 12, 2005 Dear Madhusudana Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP! > This is a statement which outlines the qualifications > of the diksa guru and the principle that such a > qualified person is permitted to make disciples. In > other words Srila Prabhupada is hereby outlining the > principle. You have not presented a quote from Srila Prabhupada that confirms your conclusion. So I discard it as speculation. You only presented a quote that says that there is another condition, maybe added later. > He has challenged my conclusions, as above, which are > concluded according to reason and logic. Please present a quote that confirms that material reason and logic can be applied to sprititual matters. (I have learned that this connot be done.) > Srila Prabhupada still had not given the diksa guru > order even as late as May 28th, 1977 ("On my order, > [...] But by my order, [...] When I order"). Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur had not given the diksa guru order even as late as his departure. Still you accept Srila Prabhupada as an authorized diksa guru. You are inconsequent! Sankarsana Prabhu several times wrote that he has been instructed by Srila Prabhupada to become initiating guru after his departure. Isn't that the authorization? If not, please answer the old question: What would you accept as an authorization? And then show us that this authorization was there for Srila Prabhupada but for none of his disciples. ys Ramakanta dasa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2005 Report Share Posted August 13, 2005 Ramakant prabhu Pamho. AgtSP. Let me deal with one point at a time. Let us get the point of authorization clear before jumping to other points. Do you accept that authorization had not been given by Srila Prabhupada by May 28th 1977 ("On my order, [...] But by my order, [...] When I order"). Or do you still maintain that the 2 quotes you gave are the order? --- "Ramakanta (das) HKS (PAMHO.NET SysOp) (Zurich - CH)" <Ramakanta.HKS (AT) pamho (DOT) net> wrote: > Dear Madhusudana Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP! > > > This is a statement which outlines the > qualifications > > of the diksa guru and the principle that such a > > qualified person is permitted to make disciples. > In > > other words Srila Prabhupada is hereby outlining > the > > principle. > > You have not presented a quote from Srila Prabhupada > that confirms your > conclusion. So I discard it as speculation. You only > presented a quote that > says that there is another condition, maybe added > later. > > > He has challenged my conclusions, as above, which > are > > concluded according to reason and logic. > > Please present a quote that confirms that material > reason and logic can be > applied to sprititual matters. (I have learned that > this connot be done.) > > > Srila Prabhupada still had not given the diksa > guru > > order even as late as May 28th, 1977 ("On my > order, > > [...] But by my order, [...] When I order"). > > Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur had not given > the diksa guru order > even as late as his departure. Still you accept > Srila Prabhupada as an > authorized diksa guru. You are inconsequent! > > Sankarsana Prabhu several times wrote that he has > been instructed by Srila > Prabhupada to become initiating guru after his > departure. Isn't that the > authorization? > > If not, please answer the old question: What would > you accept as an > authorization? And then show us that this > authorization was there for Srila > Prabhupada but for none of his disciples. > > ys Ramakanta dasa > Learn the truth about the ISKCON guru hoax ISKCON Revival Movement - http://www.iskconirm.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2005 Report Share Posted August 13, 2005 Ramakant prabhu. Pamho. AgtSP. 1) "Suppose" means that 10,000 is not the EXACT number, but an approximation of the number of disciples Srila Prabhupada had at the time. 2) Otherwise the "argument or explanation" does not work, because didn't you notice the word "expand" in the quote? What is it we are expanding FROM? - i.e. who were these (whatever EXACT number) Diksa Gurus from which we were 'expanding' to 10 million? You need some Diksa Gurus to BEGIN with in order to expand their number. 3) Let Sankarsana produce his '10 million' quote if it is not the one I spoke of. --- "Ramakanta (das) HKS (PAMHO.NET SysOp) (Zurich - CH)" <Ramakanta.HKS (AT) pamho (DOT) net> wrote: > > How can the 10,000 refer to diksa Gurus > > when Srila Prabhupada says suppose "NOW we have > > 10,000." WHERE were these 10,000 Diksa > > Gurus and WHO were they? > > Come on! "Suppose you have got now ten thousand" > does not mean "you have got > now ten thousand". Didn't you notice the word > "suppose" (to imagine, to > assume to be true or real for the sake of argument > or explanation)? > > Further, are you sure that Sankarsana Prabhu was > referring to this > conversation? > > ys Ramakanta dasa > Learn the truth about the ISKCON guru hoax ISKCON Revival Movement - http://www.iskconirm.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2005 Report Share Posted August 13, 2005 We've asked Madhusudana Prabhu to back us his example of a government which states the principle that 17 year old's can drive cars. We have not heard from him yet on this point. failure (AT) pamho (DOT) net [failure (AT) pamho (DOT) net] On Behalf Of Madhusudana Dasa Thursday, August 11, 2005 5:53 AM Ramakanta (das) HKS (PAMHO.NET SysOp) (Zurich - CH) Cc: Initiations in ISKCON (Sender: Ramakanta.HKS (AT) pamho (DOT) net) Re: Continuing the disciplic succession Ramakant et al. The situation is this, Ramakant has presented the following quotes as authorisation for the present ISKCON gurus. 1] "Nectar of Devotion, chapter 7: The six agents of sense gratification are the tongue, the genitals, the belly, anger, the mind and words. Anyone who has practiced controlling these six is permitted to make disciples all over the world." This is a statement which outlines the qualifications of the diksa guru and the principle that such a qualified person is permitted to make disciples. In other words Srila Prabhupada is hereby outlining the principle. Since there is NO mention of authorization in the quote. Just like the government states the principle that when you reach the age of 17 you are permitted to drive a car.... BUT you have to gain authorization by passing your driving test. Thus merely stating the principle is NOT in itself the authorization. 2] "Nectar of Instruction, verse 1: A sober person who can tolerate the urge to speak, the mind's demands, the actions of anger and the urges of the tongue, belly and genitals is qualified to make disciples all over the world." This quote is as before stating the principle, that if someone can do such & such then he is qualified to make disciples. Again there is no mention here of authorization to do so. This quote again states the qualification NOT authorization. He has challenged my conclusions, as above, which are concluded according to reason and logic. Challenging, "Please confirm this by a quote from guru, sadhu or sastra." Srila Prabhupada still had not given the diksa guru order even as late as May 28th, 1977 ("On my order, [...] But by my order, [...] When I order"). And this situation remained unchanged until his departure. The use of 'when' means something that has not yet happened, and that therefore that order of authorisation had yet to be given. Therefore it is as previously stated. Learn the truth about the ISKCON guru hoax ISKCON Revival Movement - http://www.iskconirm.com __ Start your day with - make it your home page http://www./r/hs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 15, 2005 Report Share Posted August 15, 2005 I'm not qualified to answer such an advanced question as this. However do not be disappointed, I'm sure that you will find an answer from one of the ISKCON diksa gurus. After all a diksa guru is a mahabhagavata for whom such a question should be - no problem. Maha-bhagavata-srestho brahmano vai gurur nrnam sarvesam eva lokanam asau pujyo yatha harih maha-kula-prasuto' pi sarva-yajnesu diksitah sahasra-sakhadhya yi ca na guruh syad avaisnavah "The guru must be situated on the topmost platform of devotional service. There are three classes of devotees, and the guru must be accepted from the topmost class." (C.c. Madhya, 24.330, purport) --- "Sankarsana (das) ACBSP (Austin, Texas - USA)" <Sankarsana.ACBSP (AT) pamho (DOT) net> wrote: > We've asked Madhusudana Prabhu to back us his > example of a government > which states the principle that 17 year old's can > drive cars. > We have not heard from him yet on this point. > > > > > > failure (AT) pamho (DOT) net [failure (AT) pamho (DOT) net] > On Behalf Of Madhusudana > Dasa > Thursday, August 11, 2005 5:53 AM > Ramakanta (das) HKS (PAMHO.NET SysOp) (Zurich - > CH) > Cc: Initiations in ISKCON (Sender: > Ramakanta.HKS (AT) pamho (DOT) net) > Re: Continuing the disciplic succession > > Ramakant et al. > > The situation is this, Ramakant has presented the > following quotes as > authorisation for the present ISKCON gurus. > > > 1] "Nectar of Devotion, chapter 7: > > The six agents of sense gratification are the > tongue, the genitals, the > belly, anger, the mind and words. > Anyone who has practiced controlling these six is > permitted to make > disciples all over the world." > > This is a statement which outlines the > qualifications of the diksa guru and > the principle that such a qualified person is > permitted to make disciples. > In other words Srila Prabhupada is hereby outlining > the principle. Since > there is NO mention of authorization in the quote. > Just like the government > states the principle that when you reach the age of > 17 you are permitted to > drive a car.... BUT you have to gain authorization > by passing your driving > test. Thus merely stating the principle is NOT in > itself the authorization. > > > 2] "Nectar of Instruction, verse 1: > > A sober person who can tolerate the urge to speak, > the mind's demands, the > actions of anger and the urges of the tongue, belly > and genitals is > qualified to make disciples all over the world." > > This quote is as before stating the principle, that > if someone can do such & > such then he is qualified to make disciples. Again > there is no mention here > of authorization to do so. This quote again states > the qualification NOT > authorization. > > He has challenged my conclusions, as above, which > are concluded according to > reason and logic. Challenging, "Please confirm this > by a quote from guru, > sadhu or sastra." > > Srila Prabhupada still had not given the diksa guru > order even as late as > May 28th, 1977 ("On my order, [...] But by my order, > [...] When I order"). > And this situation remained unchanged until his > departure. The use of 'when' > means something that has not yet happened, and that > therefore that order of > authorisation had yet to be given. > > Therefore it is as previously stated. > > Learn the truth about the ISKCON guru hoax ISKCON > Revival Movement - > http://www.iskconirm.com > > > > __ > Start your day with - make it your home page > http://www./r/hs > > > > > > > ----------------------- > To from this mailing list, send an email > to: > Initiations.in.ISKCON-Owner (AT) pamho (DOT) net > Learn the truth about the ISKCON guru hoax ISKCON Revival Movement - http://www.iskconirm.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 15, 2005 Report Share Posted August 15, 2005 Ramakanta prabhu. Pamho. AgtSP. TKG disagrees with SDG explanation in his Pyramid House Confession as follows .... "The inspiration came because there was a questioning on my part, so Krsna spoke. Actually, Prabhupada never appointed any gurus. He didn't appoint eleven gurus. He appointed eleven ritviks. He never appointed them gurus. Myself and the other GBC have done the greatest disservice to this movement the last three years (35 now) because we interpreted the appointment of ritviks as the appointment of gurus. What actually happened, I'll explain. I explained it, but the interpretation is wrong. What actually happened was that Prabhupada mentioned that he might be appointing some ritviks, so the GBC met for various reasons and they went to Prabhupada - five or six of us. We asked him, "Srila Prabhupada, after your departure, if we accept disciples, whose disciples will they be, your disciples or mine?" Later on there was a piled-up list for people to get initiated, and it was jammed-up. I said, "Srila Prabhupada, you once mentioned about ritviks. I don't know what to do. We don't want to approach you, but there's hundreds of devotees named, and I'm just holding all the letters. I don't know what you want to do." So Prabhupada said, "All right. I will appoint so many...," and he started to name them and he did name them. He made it very clear that they're his disciples. At that point it was very clear in my mind that they were his disciples." (Topanga Canyon Confessions) He also states .... "Well, I have studied myself and all of your disciples, and it's a clear fact that we are all conditioned souls, so we cannot be guru. Maybe one day it may be possible." [RC.APRIL 22, 1977, BOMBAY] In the same conversation Srila Prabhupada states .... "Yes. I shall produce some gurus. I shall say who is guru, 'Now you become acarya. You become authorised.' I am waiting for that. You become, all, acarya. I retire completely. But the training must be complete." Srila Prabhupada says, "You become authorised" again if the authorization had already been given as YOU claim then Srila Prabhupada's statement here becomes meaningless. Furthermore so determined was Satsvarupa Das to convince the world of his legitimacy as an initiating Guru, he invented his own version of the May 28th, 1977 conversation with Srila Prabhupada (the so-called "Appointment tape") which to this day is still printed in the Lilamrta. Below we give an amalgam of all four official GBC versions of the relevant section of the conversation (with variations in brackets): Satsvarupa dasa Goswami:So (then) (they) (they'll) (may) also be considered your disciples? Srila Prabhupada:Yes, they are disciples, (but) (why) consider ... who Tamal Krsna Goswami:No. He is asking that these ritvik acaryas, they are officiating, giving diksa, (there)... the people who they give diksa to, whose disciples are they? Srila Prabhupada:They are his disciples. Tamal Krsna Goswami:They are his disciples (?) Srila Prabhupada:Who is initiating ... (his) (he is) grand-disciple ... And below is Satsvarupa's invented version as it appears in the Lilamrta: "So they may also be considered your disciples," said Satsvarupa, referring to those persons initiated on Prabhupada's behalf by the ritvik acarya. "They are their disciples," said Srila Prabhupada. Now he was speaking of initiations after his passing away. "They are the disciples of the one who is initiating. And they are my grand disciples..." (Satsvarupa dasa Goswami, Srila Prabhupada-lilamrta, Vol.6, 'Uniting Two Worlds', chapter 8) In the actual recording, Srila Prabhupada agrees that all disciples initiated within the ritvik system are his... Satsvarupa:So they may also be considered your disciples Srila Prabhupada:Yes, they are disciples... ....this completely contradicts the idea that Srila Prabhupada was appointing successors, so what does Satsvarupa do? He skips that line completely and then changes "They are his disciples" (where Srila Prabhupada can only have been speaking of himself in the third person, since "his" is singular) to: "They are their disciples," which gives the false impression of a plurality of initiators. Thus we are meant to understand that the ritviks mentioned at the beginning of the conversation will magically transform themselves into fully fledged diksa Gurus. Satsvarupa then claims that Srila Prabhupada selected or appointed him and ten others as diksa Gurus, even though the GBC abandoned this claim in the mid-1980s: "Later, he would select "some of you,"and whoever he selected could become an initiating guru." (Satsvarupa dasa Goswami, Srila Prabhupada-lilamrta, Vol.6, 'Uniting Two Worlds', chapter 8) As the GBC have been forced to concede, there was no special diksa Guru selection. Srila Prabhupada only ever "selected" eleven devotees to act as ritviks, or representative priests, not as diksa Gurus in their own right. Yet the Lilamrta is sold in temple bookshops as though it were the gospel truth. >> Or do you still maintain that the 2 quotes you >>gave are the order? >Yes, the quotes and Sankarsana Prabhu's statement. >Why not? "Unless it is there from me in writing, there are so many things that ``Prabhupada said.''" [sPL 75-09-02] Learn the truth about the ISKCON guru hoax ISKCON Revival Movement - http://www.iskconirm.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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