Dear devotees

August 12, 2005

Dear Prabhus.

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

It seems, that it cannot be really decided, if we should use "mataji" or

"prabhu" for ISKCON female devotees. Srila Prabhupada used both terms in his

dealings with both his disciples and other women.

But I think it should be noted, that he instructed his disciples to use word

"mataji".

=====

Devotee: When you address a woman do you use the word "Mataji"? Is that the

right, proper word for her?

Prabhupada: Mataji. Yes, very good. "Mother." All right. Chant. (end)

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Bhagavad-gita 4.14 -- Vrndavana, August 6, 1974

=====

Prabhupada: These are all bogus things. One should train himself that

matravat para-daresu, all women, "my mother." Then it will be possible to

live... Therefore the etiquette is to address every woman, "Ma, ma, mother."

That is the etiquette.

Brahmananda: You say like "Mother Rukmini"? There's a devotee named Rukmini.

You say, "Mother Rukmini"? How do you address a woman? Do you say, "Mother,"

and then the name of the devotee?

Prabhupada: No. "Mother," simply.

Brahmananda: Just "Mother."

Prabhupada: Yes. They should be addressed, "Mother." That will train.

Indian man (4): In our Indian culture they don't call the name of the mother

never, children don't.

Prabhupada: No. "Mother," simply "mother," that's all. And if the woman

treats man as son, then it is all right. It is safe.

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Morning Walk -- November 2, 1975, Nairobi

Also tradition seems to support use of "mataji".

======

Formerly, every woman should be addressed as "mother," Mataji.

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Bhagavad-gita 4.14 -- Vrndavana, August 6, 1974

======

Therefore it is the system in Vedic culture, as soon as one sees another

woman, she (he) addresses her, "mother," Mataji. Immediately, "mother."

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.3.13 -- Los Angeles, September 18,

1972

Also it seems that it is proper etiquette, by which nobody should be

offended.

=====

He can speak with another woman, addressing him first..., addressing her

first, "mother,mataji." Then nobody will be offended. This is the

etiquette.

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Srimad-Bhagavatam 6.1.56-57 -- Bombay, August 14, 1975

Besides, it is also very sweet sounding.

=====

Indian woman: We got a very sweet sound. Everything we use "ji.Mataji",

"Pitaji,Brataji,Bahinji."

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Morning Walk -- November 2, 1975, Nairobi

I understant, that use of mataji can possibly create a psychological space

in which women can be ranked just a little bit lower than the rest of the

Vaisnavas, who are the men. But that is just a matter of interpretation. One

can be offended my many different things. Use of word "mataji" need not

cause some kind of inferiority complex. By use of word "mataji" women are

actually glorified, they just need to understand that. After all there is

difference between men and women. Women have to carry burdens, of which men

are excused of. But it seems thats how things are created. There can never

be equality.

In the end, even if we accept, that "prabhu" can be used in addressing

women, still we must not forget that Srila Prabhupada used both "prabhu" and

"mataji". We are left with two terms, and we are to decide which one to use

in particular situation.

I'd say, that if one sees another devotee as woman, than he should by all

means address her as "mataji". But if one can see another devotee as a soul,

then he may want to use word "prabhu". So, as I see it, it depends on our

own realization and also on advancement of devotee in female body, who we

are addressing. Of both words, "mataji" seems to be more appropriate for

dealings between ordinary devotees. But some very advanced devotees in

female bodies will, because their purity, be recognised by use of "prabhu"

even by ordinary male devotees.

But in general, devotees in female bodies need to understand, that devotees

in male bodies may have some problem dealing with female bodies. Thats the

old fire/butter thing. I don't think that it is wise, to abandon use of word

"mataji", just because somebody/somewhere/sometime may have some inferiority

problem because of it.

your servant Giri-nayaka das BVS

>

> In a message dated 8/11/2005 7:40:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

> Basu.Ghosh.ACBSP (AT) pamho (DOT) net writes:

>

> But it is more likely that words like "Mother" are objected to not

> because of occaisional misuse but because the words themselves are

> thought to be the cause of oppression

>

> The ONLY objection, and this has already been stated several time, is not

> about "Mother" or "Mataji" in itself, it is about Srila Prabhupada

> instructions

>

> on the matter, which are quite clearly in favor of "Prabhu" rather than

> anything else, for both men and women.

August 12, 2005

>

> In a message dated 8/11/2005 7:40:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

> Basu.Ghosh.ACBSP (AT) pamho (DOT) net writes:

>

> But it is more likely that words like "Mother" are objected to not

> because of occaisional misuse but because the words themselves are

> thought to be the cause of oppression

>

> The ONLY objection, and this has already been stated several time, is not

> about "Mother" or "Mataji" in itself, it is about Srila Prabhupada

> instructions

>

> on the matter, which are quite clearly in favor of "Prabhu" rather than

> anything else, for both men and women.

>

If Mother Vishakha's paper is taken as showing that there is no harm in

sometimes addressing a woman as "Prabhu", then her paper makes a

reasonable case for that. But if it is taken to support the idea that

"Prabhu" is the preferred way to address women, then her paper does not

support that. I think an intelligent and unbiased paper that tries to

establish what is the preferred form of addressing women must at the

very least also include quotes like the one below, no?

'That brahmacari rules and regulation are there in the

Srimad-Bhagavatam, that he would go door to door for collecting alms for

his spiritual master, and address every woman as mother, from the very

beginning. From five years old, if a child is trained to call all woman

as "Mother," naturally his culture is different. Because he has learned

to call all woman as "Mother." He has no other idea. A small child, any

woman comes before him, he knows "(S)He is my mother." So this was the

practice. That is not only religiously, but morally, it is so good, to

look upon all woman as mother. That is the system still in India, any

unknown woman who has no introduction with you, (s)he is addressed

"Mataji." Address her. She may be just like daughter or granddaughter,

but one would address, as a respect to the woman, as "Mother, Mataji."

This is Indian system. Now some rascals have introduced "Bhaginiji,

sister." But that is not shastric. In the sastra, all the woman, except

one's wife, should be addressed as "Mother."'

Ref. VedaBase => Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.16.10 -- Los Angeles, January

7, 1974

August 12, 2005

Hare Krsna Prabhus,

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

Perhaps I am too simplistic, but is our goal here to argue about sanskrit

etiquette or become pure vaisnavas? My personal approach is, we need to

follow Srila Prabhupada's example of etiquette. It was good enough for him

and he is Uttama adhikari. He came to us directly from the spiritual world

to deliver the topmost system for developing love of God. Just be simple,

just love Krsna. Simle living, High thinking. That is what we are here for.

As with any aspect of life in the material world,other details can just be

so much distraction from the goal. There are many details that we have to

attend to to fulfill SP wishes for increasing our Krsna Consiousness; this

is not one of them. So are we to become distracted by maya's tricks and get

caught up in non-devotional details?

A small aside, to me the address prahavi grates on me like fingernails on a

blackboard. Being offended by being called mataji shows that we are still

mired in the western concept that being called mother is a sexist reference.

That phycological attachment/concept is what we need to be dealing with, not

changing what SP gave us so our egos feel more comfortable. Aham Brahmasmi

Your Servant

JayaLalita dd

August 13, 2005

....well spoken, Mataji...

y.s.

hrimati dasi

August 13, 2005

A small aside, to me the address prahavi grates on me like fingernails

on a

blackboard. Being offended by being called mataji shows that we are

still

mired in the western concept that being called mother is a sexist

reference.

That phycological attachment/concept is what we need to be dealing

with, not

changing what SP gave us so our egos feel more comfortable. Aham

Brahmasmi

Bingo!!!!!!!!!! Finally a "MOTHER" who gets it!

Thank you MOTHER!!

Praghosa

"JayaLalita (dasi) ACBSP (TX - US)" <JayaLalita.ACBSP (AT) pamho (DOT) net> wrote: