Pests in agriculture

August 19, 2005

I have to agree with Madhava Gosh. A vaisya should not attempt to

imitate a brahmana in the practice of ahimsa. It is the duty of the

vaisya to protect his cows from serious threats.

Ideally, we can employ other living entities, such as dogs and cats to

kill groundhogs, mice and rats and other vermine, but if that is not

possible, then we should be more attached to protecting the cows than we

are attached to accumulating pious credits by not killing things that

pose a threat to our cows.

Then again, in some cases by using intelligence and knowlege accumulated

by local farmers, we can figure out how to deter the threat without

actually having to kill anything. This is ideal. But if there is no

other way, sometimes it's necessary to kill. With rats, for example,

the sooner you kill them, the less of them you have to kill.

ys

hkdd

Mark Middle Mountain wrote:

>>I regularily come across nests and admit the thought entering my mind to

>>stand on the nest. they arent scared of cats either. - hmmm maybe I need a

>>Tiger !!

>>Your thoughts

>>Ananta Krsna Dasi

>>

>

>Personally, I wouldn't think twice about destroying the nests.

>

>An old rural trick is to kill one, then hang it in the field you want them

>out of. Pretty effective.

>

>Have you looked into the Japanese "scary eye" balloons? They are balloons

>you hang around the perimeter of the field. The "eye" on the balloon evokes

>an avoidance response from birds who are prey to raptors. They are hung on

>string so they move some in the breeze.

>

>Back when I was trying to maintain 200 blueberry plants for NV, birds were a

>major headache. Netting would work, but was a big job setting up and taking

>down for that many highbush blueberry plants, and made picking more

>difficult. Plus one time a snake got tangled in the netting. That was a

>whole drama getting it freed. It was nonpoisonous but a 6 foot long black

>snake, and I have a normal fear of snakes. :-)

>

>Anyway, so I tried the scary eye balloons. They did stop the mass attacks by

>the flocking black birds (cowbirds, starlings, red winged blackbirds, others

>of that sort) that could land en masse and wipe out a bush in minutes.

>

August 23, 2005

....try a shot gun :-)

In front of my house, when they plant the new patty, they have several men

guard all day (and night) long the new crop holding large tin cans and

banging them with a big stick making lots of noise.

They also do lots of yelling and use rifles to shoot in the air and throw

chocolate bombs etc.

They have to do that until the plants grow big enough, so all those birds,

who are there to get the little fish and insects, do not knock over the new

seedlings.

y.s.

Hrimati dasi

August 23, 2005

In fact we are not vaisyas or brahmanas. These are material designations.

We are vaisnavas or aspiring to be under guidance of Srila Prabhupada. And

vaisnavas are always merciful to other liiving entities. Its not about

pious credits. Hrimati has given us the ref. from Bhagwatam verse and

purport,. which is authorative, and Srila Prabhupada says we are "

unknowingly " killing so many living entities so we must always be engaged

in devotional service to avoid sinful reaction. so if we knowingly kill

then we will have to accept the reaction. After all avian TB is only a

possibility. Dogs and cats can certainly do the work. In Vrindaban people

put non lethal traps to catch the rats and next day cary them away to

banks of Yamuna and release them. Cloth merchants put a bowl of grain for

the rats in their shops at night so they will not eat the cloth. Srila

Prabhupada has told us this. You should take the trouble to keep a cat

to keep down the rats or trap and release them ( down the road!) but

dont kill them. or reaction is there. Sometimes a rat is drowning in a

cow's water bucket. I always pull it out by its tail and put in a safe

place, not for pious credits but because I dont like to see them suffer

helplessly . Its not that only the lives of human beings are important.

We live here., rats live here and cats live here and there isnt a problem.

Enormous field rats eat my pineapples but I spray the fruit with red chili

water and they stop it. They cant take hot chili. There is always another

way. ys Labangalatika dasi

-

Noma Petroff <npetroff (AT) bowdoin (DOT) edu>

Mark Middle Mountain <gourdmad (AT) ovnet (DOT) com>

Cc: Cow (Protection and related issues) <Cow (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

Friday, August 19, 2005 1:15 AM

Re: Pests in agriculture

> I have to agree with Madhava Gosh. A vaisya should not attempt to

> imitate a brahmana in the practice of ahimsa. It is the duty of the

> vaisya to protect his cows from serious threats.

>

> Ideally, we can employ other living entities, such as dogs and cats to

> kill groundhogs, mice and rats and other vermine, but if that is not

> possible, then we should be more attached to protecting the cows than we

> are attached to accumulating pious credits by not killing things that

> pose a threat to our cows.

>

> Then again, in some cases by using intelligence and knowlege accumulated

> by local farmers, we can figure out how to deter the threat without

> actually having to kill anything. This is ideal. But if there is no

> other way, sometimes it's necessary to kill. With rats, for example,

> the sooner you kill them, the less of them you have to kill.

>

> ys

>

> hkdd

>

> Mark Middle Mountain wrote:

>

> >>I regularily come across nests and admit the thought entering my mind to

> >>stand on the nest. they arent scared of cats either. - hmmm maybe I need

a

> >>Tiger !!

> >>Your thoughts

> >>Ananta Krsna Dasi

> >>

> >

> >Personally, I wouldn't think twice about destroying the nests.

> >

> >An old rural trick is to kill one, then hang it in the field you want

them

> >out of. Pretty effective.

> >

> >Have you looked into the Japanese "scary eye" balloons? They are balloons

> >you hang around the perimeter of the field. The "eye" on the balloon

evokes

> >an avoidance response from birds who are prey to raptors. They are hung

on

> >string so they move some in the breeze.

> >

> >Back when I was trying to maintain 200 blueberry plants for NV, birds

were a

> >major headache. Netting would work, but was a big job setting up and

taking

> >down for that many highbush blueberry plants, and made picking more

> >difficult. Plus one time a snake got tangled in the netting. That was a

> >whole drama getting it freed. It was nonpoisonous but a 6 foot long black

> >snake, and I have a normal fear of snakes. :-)

> >

> >Anyway, so I tried the scary eye balloons. They did stop the mass attacks

by

> >the flocking black birds (cowbirds, starlings, red winged blackbirds,

others

> >of that sort) that could land en masse and wipe out a bush in minutes.

> >

>

> -----------------------

> To from this mailing list, send an email to:

> Cow-Owner (AT) pamho (DOT) net

August 23, 2005

Try a good pair of big dogs. They will love to chase the birds away and

they will gobble up the eggs too so you wont have to step on the nests

yourself which is not your work. Maybe you dont like dogs but they can be

most helpful on the land. After all its not our land or our world . The

birds live there too. however awful they appear. But dogs will drive them

away without you having get directly involved . Its not the same as

sending for the pest control. as it is animals following their natural

instincts/ ys Labangalatika dasi

-

Ann Fletcher <ann (AT) akn (DOT) quik.co.nz>

Cow (Protection and related issues) <Cow (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

Monday, August 22, 2005 10:49 AM

Re: Pests in agriculture

> These birds are so brazen they only sqwark when a .22 goes off in their

ear

> and even if you throw a fire cracker at them they just jump 5 cm and then

> try to eat it !! They attack any other bird and if one of their own is

> left dead in the paddock they have a go at that too !! We also cover small

> vege gardens but pretty impracticle when cropping 5 acres. Its almost us

or

> them !!

> cheers

> Ananta

>

> > >I regularily come across nests and admit the thought entering my mind

to

> > > stand on the nest. they arent scared of cats either. - hmmm maybe I

need

> a

> > > Tiger !!

> > > Your thoughts

> > > Ananta Krsna Dasi

> >

> > Personally, I wouldn't think twice about destroying the nests.

> >

> > An old rural trick is to kill one, then hang it in the field you want

them

> > out of. Pretty effective.

> >

> > Have you looked into the Japanese "scary eye" balloons? They are

balloons

> > you hang around the perimeter of the field. The "eye" on the balloon

> evokes

> > an avoidance response from birds who are prey to raptors. They are hung

on

> > string so they move some in the breeze.

> >

> > Back when I was trying to maintain 200 blueberry plants for NV, birds

were

> a

> > major headache. Netting would work, but was a big job setting up and

> taking

> > down for that many highbush blueberry plants, and made picking more

> > difficult. Plus one time a snake got tangled in the netting. That was a

> > whole drama getting it freed. It was nonpoisonous but a 6 foot long

black

> > snake, and I have a normal fear of snakes. :-)

> >

> > Anyway, so I tried the scary eye balloons. They did stop the mass

attacks

> by

> > the flocking black birds (cowbirds, starlings, red winged blackbirds,

> others

> > of that sort) that could land en masse and wipe out a bush in minutes.

> >

> > However, other fruit eating birds like robins and thrushes weren't

> detered.

> > They would enter the area on nearly ground level flight patterns, using

> the

> > bushes themselves as cover from the balloons. Or maybe they realized it

> was

> > a sham. They would come singlely, but over the course of time would

> consume

> > a great amount, as a lot of them came.

> >

> > Of course, what finally caused me to abandon the project wasn't the

birds,

> > tho they pushed me to the tipping point. It was the devotees, who would

> > never lift a finger to help, but as soon as the berries were ripe would

> > swoop down and take whatever they wanted.. No respect given to orderly

> and

> > systematic picking. No notification of when they intended to pick. They

> > would pull up the netting. pick berries, and then not bother replacing

it

> > correctly. They would damage twigs by rough picking techniques. Of

course,

> > zero gratitiude. Naturally, management couldn't be bothered with such a

> > trifling afair. So I stopped taking care of them and the rose bushes

took

> > over.

> >

> > An old Native American method of protecting fields from larger pests,

was

> to

> > build a platform in the field and have someone sit on it. It was

> sometimes

> > tied to courtship, as the young girls would sit there and the suitors

> would

> > come by and chat. Maybe you could find someone so absorbed in the

> > scriotures that they would sit there and read and chant. When the crow

or

> > animal would come, clapping and dancing in ecstasy would frighten

> themaway,

> > or a loud "Hari Bol" might work.

> >

> > A modern twist on this would be use of a carbide cannon. At sort of

> regular

> > intervals it goes off in a loud "Bang" scaring away birds, but the

problem

> > is that soon the birds would realize it was no real danger.

> >

> > I remember living upstairs in the old barn. Deer would come out and eat

in

> > the corn field on the other side of the hollow. I would go up on the

barn

> > roof and shoot my .308 into the far slope. At first, they would run away

> and

> > not come back until the next day. After a few weeks, they got used to

it

> > and eventually wouldn't even flinch. If I would shoot really close to

> their

> > grazing head, and kick up dirt right in front of them, that would scare

> > them. But next day they would be back. Ammo cost started to be an

issue,

> > and devotees were complaing the random timing of the discharge noise and

> the

> > crack of the sound barrier being broken over their heads by the

projectile

> > was disturbing them. Plus, at the distance, I wasn't that confident of

my

> > ability to judge windage, elevation , and hold steady, so as close as I

> had

> > to get, inevitablely I would have killed one of the deer by mistake, and

> > didn't want to do that, so I stopped. We eventually abandoned that

field

> as

> > deer pressure grew. It has grown steadily worse over the last 30 years.

> >

> > -----------------------

> > To from this mailing list, send an email to:

> > Cow-Owner (AT) pamho (DOT) net

> >

>

> -----------------------

> To from this mailing list, send an email to:

> Cow-Owner (AT) pamho (DOT) net

August 24, 2005

Haribol,

Syamasundara Prabhu asks:

"Are we saying that we as devotees cannot directly kill something but we can

indirectly kill something by natural arrangement?"

Surely this point is at the heart of the Bhagavad Gita, which has been so

misunderstood by so many so-called pious people. As HKDD stated, many

Mayavadis, even Ghandi, would not accept that Krsna´s instructions to engage in

war and kill millions of people were literal. As Bhakti Siddhanta Sarasvati

Maharaj said, Krsna lila is not literal or allegorical, it is transcendental.

These points, though, are so difficult for us to understand.

Literally, Krsna is saying to Arjuna "take up your bow and arrows and fight,

kill the miscreants who want to install adharma in the world and thus restore

religious principles". Allegorically, it could be seen that he is saying to

fight our own internal demons. And transcendentally, well it is difficult for

me to state what this might be, not being on the transcendental platform. But

if I were to refer to pointers that are shown in the Vedic literature, I would

state that it is all about the degree of sarangati, of surrender, to Krsna. But

then the point is, what is surrender to Krsna when we do not have Krsna there

telling us directly what to do? We have the instrucions in the original Vedas

and their supplements, and we have the instructions from our spiritual masters.

We also have our own internal chit guru. It can most clearly be seen that

Prabhupada is very addamant, as HKDD showed, that to take a very practical

approach is necessary.

As in Aristotlian scholasticism, the Vedic paradigm has a very clearly defined

heirarchy of living beings of the 8,400,000 forms (species) that are mentioned

in the Padma Purana. It is perceived that those species that are lower in the

heirarchy can be killed (removed) if needed for the esential betterment of

those above. Thus even a barren cow can be killed if there are insufficient

grains for the human population. In terms of day-to-day agriculture, then

Prabhupada time and again mentions the need to domesticate the cow, pull down

wild forest for grain land, establish pasture land and manage it. All this

requires violence and killing of living organisms, and all of it is approved so

as to maintain human civilization, as long as it is necessary (artha) and not

unnecessary (anartha).

The fine line between need and caprichous desire surely is the point of

synthesis between two contradictory points (thesis and antithesis). And as

Madhava Prabhu states, to do something though imperfect is better than not

doing something, which would thus be more imperfect. I myself, have made this

same point in terms of the need to protect cows even without working the oxen.

Krsna states, "it is better to do one´s duty, though imperfectly, than

anothers, though perfectly".

So in an attempt to answer Syamasundara's point, the goal of agriculture is to

produce food for human consumption; thus the quantity of food taken by pests

must be minimised. This requires control in one form or another. Modern-day

pesticides are much less toxic than their predessesors, but still take their

toll on the whole field ecology. Organic pesticides as part of integrated pest

management, IPM, respect the functioning of the field ecology (agroecology) and

thus are praised by ecologists. Whether we kill directly or indirectly, to me,

is besides the point. The point is to view the totality, the holistic vision,

of how our acts are to affect the whole organism. Thus I would state that

chemical pesticides stamp human supremacy too strongly onto the ecology, and

are therefore unnecessary (anartha). Whereas organic means of control allow a

greater fluidity between human survival and all other living organisms, where a

balance, a happy medium, is struck between our needs (arthas)

and the needs of the rest. Sometimes we may have to directly kill, othertimes

it may be better to incorporate into our entourage other living beings, like

cows, horses, dogs, cats, etc., who will do jobs for us. How to decide what to

do? - yukta vairagya, a detached utility value, with the human qualities or a

pure heart - truthfullness, compassion, etc.

Please excuse my impertinence for thinking I may have something useful to

share,

Gopananda dasa

Haribol Prabhus,

from the points presented so far it seems there is a general understanding

that devotees will not consciously kill even a fly in agriculture. A devotee

will not squash a fly or poison the insects on the veg. Gopananda talking

about trees has reminded us of the 4th Canto where the destroying of trees

for the establishing of agricultural fields was permitted.

Now we have to have a clear understanding on the natural arrangements of

pest minimisation:

We can not stamp on the rat but we can keep a cat who will eat the rat?.

We cannot kill the greenfly on the crops but we can encourage the ladybird

who will do it for us?

We cannot kill the birds but we can keep a dog or cat who may do it for us?

Are we saying that we as devotees cannot directly kill something but we can

indirectly kill something by natural arrangement?

What are the thoughts on this please.

ys syam

-----------------------

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August 25, 2005

....Because it is in our demoniac Western culture not to be merciful, we

want to find excuses to kill our fellow living beings.

Srila Prabhupada has commented extensively on the subject, however now we

are comparing insects as our "enemies"??

I found a very nice passage of a Vyasa Puja offering :

By meditating upon you, we discover the perfect guru, friend, father, and

pure devotee of Lord Krsna. Srila Prabhupada, your birth and activities in

this world were all auspicious and have brought great fortune into our

lives. We want to assist you in your mission, but unfortunately we have

none of your exalted qualities. We are still struggling to follow the

basic principles of spiritual life. We are so much infected by this

demoniac Western culture that we are deprived of the nectar of love for

Krsna. How can we get purified of this contamination, this vile,

infectious disease, this epidemic of materialistic life which is consuming

our whole society? How can we avoid being also consumed? Only by your

mercy, Srila Prabhupada, by hearing the words emanating from your lotus

mouth. By carefully studying your books and serving you with faith, our

consciousness is becoming gradually purified. We are still in a very sick

condition, but we are trying to get well so that we may serve you nicely.

We want to become good disciples, Srila Prabhupada. We want that you are

proud of us as a father is proud of his children. But in our present

condition we are an embarrassment.

......Radha-desa Chateau

Benelux

y.s.

Hrimati dasi

August 25, 2005

Hirimati,

A lovely and so beautiful exposition of the reality of our selves you have just

presented. As Bhakti Rhaksasa Sridhara Maharaj said, when even insect and seen

as our gurus then we will fully understand what it means to be more humble than

straw and tolerant like a tree. If Krsna can be seen, in one way, as the

expansiive complete organic whole, then we must find our ecological niche (sri

isopanisad invocation and first mantra). It is not a case of controlling

nature, but of finding niche ecology. This has become my understanding. In

niche ecology all is as need be (artha), no excess desires (anartha), any

kiling, either fully conscious or without knowing, is acceptable as it is

necessary, an act of mercy.

But as you say, we are so fallen we can only look to our masters in the hope

that if even a drop of their mercy may fall into our mouths, like the

(Patchaka?) bird who only drinks rain, we may in some way be useful to serve

them, though we have no real qualifications to do so.

Gopananda dasa

"Hrimati (dd) ACBSP (Mayapur - IN)" <Hrimati.ACBSP (AT) pamho (DOT) net> wrote: