Response to Jayadvaita Maharaj's recommended article

[Guest guest]

Although I may not agree point for point with Basu Ghosh Prabhu I think his

point is well taken. I most assuredly don't agree with Gupta Nam das's

essay. I think it is very foolish to put a conspiracy theory like this up on

an official Iskcon web site, very foolish indeed. Who controls this web

site.

 

Ys TS

 

 

> > Basu Ghosh (das) ACBSP (Baroda - IN)

> > Reference: Text PAMHO:10352460 by Basu Ghosh (das) ACBSP (Baroda - IN)

> > Re: What can a Hare Krsna devotee say about 9/11 ?

> > ---------------------------

> > Some thoughts:

> >

> > This evening via email I received a message telling me about an article

> > titled "A Distant View of 9/11," written by a devotee. That the article

> > appears on krishna.com is notable. As far as I am aware, krishna.com is

> > an official ISKCON project, or close enough to being one. It is not one

> > of these websites with a disclaimer that says, "The articles published

> > here do not necessarily represent the views of ISKCON." Considering

> > where the article is posted, I wonder if the article somewhat reflects

> > ISKCON's official view of the war between the West and Islam, or whether

> > this is a harbinger of a coming ISKCON policy statement that sounds

> > something like this article. These two possibilities worry me, and I

> > would like to explain why.

> >

> > Although the author states that he is wary of conspiracy theories,

> > fundamentally it is a conspiracy theory he promotes. His conspiracy

> > theory is an old and tired one at that. Anyone who is not in ISKCON and

> > also hasn't spent the last four years in a sensory deprevation tank

> > knows this conspiracy theory well: "Blood for Oil." The article, "A

> > Distant View of 9/11," is perhaps more aptly named than the author

> > intended, because if the author had been more in touch with both the old

> > media and new media of the Internet, he might also have known that

> > "Blood for Oil" conspiracy theories are isomorphic forms of theories

> > embodied by slogans like "Support for Saddam." You know, Saddam

> > Hussain? He's the one responsible for having prisoners thrown feet first

> > into wood chippers; who tortured and killed women by having them hung

> > upside down during their menstral periods so that their menses would

> > stay in their bodies, ferment, and poison them; who was responsible for

> > the slaughter tens of thousands of his own countrymen by heavy weapons

> > and by poison gas--burying them in mass graves of the kind not seen

> > since since tyrants like Pol Pot. You know who I'm talking about,

> > right? Saddam and others of his ilk are the kind of people Prahlada

> > Maharaja had in mind when he said "even saintly persons take pleasure in

> > the killing of a scorpion or a snake." Saddam H. is just one, Osama Bin

> > Laden is another. America and Europe say OBL downed the WTC towers, the

> > Middle East says he did it. Heck, even OBL says he did it. Maybe OBL

> > is a CIA mole? The conspiracy theories get weirder all the time.

> >

> > There really is such a thing as a good war, and even good wars can be

> > criticized by doubting motivations. Merely doubting motives, however,

> > doesn't prove anything. It just means you think the other person has

> > ill motives. The Pandavas' war on the Kauravas, although dharmic, could

> > be recast as "Blood for Land", or "Lust for Power", or whatever other

> > ill motive we can dream up. How about this one: "Blood for Cotton"? It

> > would work well as a conspiracy theory for the American North's war

> > against the South in the American Civil War. In fact, that's what some

> > American Southerners said about the North's motives (as did some in the

> > North). The war was over slavery--make no mistake about that. Yet no

> > matter how good a cause might be, ill motives can always be ascribed to

> > the persons going to war. Although some wars the U.S. has been involved

> > in have been motivated by less than honorable motives, not all have been

> > ill motivated. What dark ulterior motive could we ascribe to the United

> > States's struggle against Nazi Germany and to save the Jews? And then

> > how would we explain the more than charitable Marshal plan for the

> > reconstruction of Germany? Ditto for the reconstruction of Japan.

> >

> > Finally, if ISKCON is going to make foreign policy statements (and

> > putting something like "A Distant View" on Krishna.com comes close),

> > then I think a little more thought needs to go into figuring out where

> > ISKCON stands in all of this, starting with what it stands to win or

> > loose. What might happen if the West falls? How might that affect

> > ISKCON? In this scenario, Europe more or less becomes an Islamic

> > population and America loses its dominance as an economic, scientific,

> > and military leader. It probably wouldn't be a good thing for India.

> > India has endured for centuries Islamic invaders who happily plundered

> > and slaughtered innocent Hindus, destroyed their temples, built mosques

> > on the foundations of the temples they destroyed, and systematically

> > oppressed the surviviors who would still not become Muslims. There is a

> > mosque sitting right on top of the Sri Krishna Janmabhoomi in Mathura,

> > where a temple to Lord Sri Krishna once stood. Let that sink in for a

> > minute, and then think of all the hundreds and thousands of temples

> > destroyed by Muslim invaders. And now think about how Pakistan, with

> > Chinese assistance, developed a nuclear arsenal (to be used against "you

> > know who"), and then also consider that both Pakistan and China have

> > fought wars with India over its sovereign territory.

> >

> > India has much to protect that is worthy of protection. Whatever the

> > West may be, it would be in the interests of both the West and India to

> > ally themselves against a demonstrably hostile Sino-Islamic alliance.

> > One of the things India protects is the source of our cultural and

> > religious heritage. Since ISKCON has a personal stake in seeing that

> > India's territorial and cultural integrity be maintained, ISKCON also

> > needs to lend whatever encouragement and guidance (we *are* brahmanas,

> > right?) to those who would protect our heritage. Protecting the dhamas,

> > the Deities, and religious culture is not a material endeavor. But if

> > ISKCON makes policy statements that directly or indirectly support those

> > who would destroy all that we stand for, or if ISKCON's body politic

> > unofficially sides with those who wouldn't mind seeing devotees dead,

> > then we might get what we deserve--up to and including annihilation.

> >

> > Although ISKCON is not in the business of diplomacy and war, out of

> > necessiity ISKCON could become an important player in the containment

> > and destruction of Islam. Necessity would mean that ISKCON could lose

> > an awful lot, if not itself, if it chose not to act. In the face of

> > global Islamic Jihad, that is a possibility we have to consider. It

> > took an alliance between the United States and the Roman Catholic

> > Church to finally bring down the Soviet State. It may also be the case

> > that a similar alliance of both material and spiritual resources between

> > the West and India will be needed to reign in Islam once and for all.

> > But then on the other hand, things may have to get worse before they get

> > better. Perhaps Europe has to become Eurabia, and perhaps America has

> > to get nuked into insignificance. Perhaps India has to yet again be

> > overrun by foreign invaders, who have neither love nor sympathy for

> > Krishna consciousness. The Muslim invaders who ruled India around the

> > time of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu did not have weapons of mass

> > destruction. If Aurangzeb had nukes, poison gas, and biological weapons

> > like we have today, what do you think he would have done with them?

> >

> > The world situation is such that even if we do not want to be involved

> > in the nasty business of politics and war, for the sake of survival we

> > might have to be involved anyway. That means being prepared, and the

> > first step is to think a little more carefully about ISKCON's foreign

> > policy.

> >

> >

> > Basu Ghosh (das) ACBSP (Baroda - IN) wrote:

> >

> > >---------- Forwarded Message ----------

> > >Text PAMHO:10350599 (35 lines)

> > > Jayadvaita Swami

> > > 06-Sep-05 15:29 (11:29 -0400)

> > > X (All PAMHO users) [245]

> > > What can a Hare Krsna devotee say about 9/11 ?

> > >---------------------------

> > >

> > >ISKCON commentary concerning 9/11--surely one of the most dramatic

> > >events in recent history--has consisted mainly of words of sympathy

> > >for the victims and condemnation of the evil of terrorism.

> > >

> > >You can now find on Krishna.com an article that gives a very different

> > >Krsna conscious perspective:

> > >

> > > A Distant View of 9/11

> > > by Gupta Nama Dasa

> > >

> > >The article brings out teachings from Srila Prabhupada that seem

> > >powerfully relevant. (And related teachings from Srila Prabhupada the

> > >article doesn't mention will almost surely come to your mind.)

> > >

> > >The article appears at this address:

> > >

> > > http://www.krishna.com/main.php?id=659

> > >

> > >Or (easier to remember) you can find a link for it on my web page:

> > >

> > > www.krishna.com/jas

> > >

> > >I don't commonly send out messages urging people to read an article.

> > >But. . . please read this article.

> > >

> > >Hare Krsna.

> > >

> > > Your servant,

> > > Jayadvaita Swami

> > >

> > >

> > > -------------------

> > > www.krishna.com/jas

[Guest guest]

Dear Basu Ghosh et al, PAMHO AGTSP

 

This sort of article written under an obvious pseudonym, with

allusions to information from spurious sources such as "a friend of a

friend of a former CIA agent" etc, does not seem like the thing that

should be posted on Krishna.com. I tend to agree with Basu Ghosh that

if at all ISKCON or any of it's well-wishers want to engage in

political dialogue that they support political systems that foster

freedom of speech and religion. Both India and the US (UK and Western

Europe) fall under this category of being secular democracies.

Secular democracies have their problems too but the alternative is

often worse. Of course the Vedic social system was a god-centered

benevolent autocracy (theocracy). That does not mean that all

theocratic systems should be supported.

 

There are enough conspiracy theories within "ISKCON" without getting

involved in these larger issues. If there is to be any political

dialogue about the system of governance it should begin (at home)

with the system within the "ISKCON" society. Members and well-wishers

should concentrate on reforming that system first.

 

ys

 

Gaura Keshava das

[Guest guest]

Dear Swamiji et al, PAMHO AGTSP

 

> I believe this makes things eminently clear: The article represents

> the views

> of the author alone, NOT the official (or even unofficial) views of

> ISKCON.

 

I agree with you, however is not krishna.com an official website of

BBTI? see http://www.krishna.com/main.php?id=389

 

I am quoting from the website: "The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust

International (BBTI) and its website, Krishna.com (hereafter referred

to as "we", "us", "our") "

 

If krishna.com is the website of BBTI then should it not also have

some policy towards what it publishes, whether with or without

disclaimer? If so then what is that policy?

 

ys

 

GKD

[Guest guest]

>Dear Swamiji et al, PAMHO AGTSP

>

>> I believe this makes things eminently clear: The article represents

>> the views

>> of the author alone, NOT the official (or even unofficial) views of

>> ISKCON.

>

>I agree with you, however is not krishna.com an official website of

>BBTI? see http://www.krishna.com/main.php?id=389

>

>I am quoting from the website: "The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust

>International (BBTI) and its website, Krishna.com (hereafter referred

>to as "we", "us", "our") "

>

>If krishna.com is the website of BBTI then should it not also have

>some policy towards what it publishes, whether with or without

>disclaimer? If so then what is that policy?

 

Well, Greg, what do you think it should be?

 

When Srila Prabhupada was physically present, we used to publish all

sorts of views quite aggressively at odds with prevailing popular

notions:

 

We never went to the moon.

(Oh man, talk about conspiracy theories!)

 

Darwin and his followers are rascals.

 

And much more.

 

Of course, that was Srila Prabhupada, and for us his words have much

greater authority. But should his disciples speak out that way too?

And if they do, is it all right for the BBT to publish what they say?

 

I think that's a question worth considering.

 

Thank you. Hare Krsna.

 

--ys, js

[Guest guest]

Dear Swamiji, PAMHO AGTSP

 

Thanks for answering my question with more questions.

 

On Sep 7, 2005, at 8:59 AM, Jayadvaita Swami wrote:

 

> Well, Greg, what do you think it should be?

 

I don't know. I am asking this question. What IS the editorial policy

of the BBTI and it's website krishna.com?

 

> When Srila Prabhupada was physically present, we used to publish all

> sorts of views quite aggressively at odds with prevailing popular

> notions:

>

> We never went to the moon.

> (Oh man, talk about conspiracy theories!)

>

> Darwin and his followers are rascals.

>

> And much more.

>

> Of course, that was Srila Prabhupada, and for us his words have much

> greater authority.

 

Yes, I agree with you. I was not trying to fault anyone for

presenting controversial statements by HDG Srila Prabhupada. And I

have no problem with the mention of demoniac politicians, etc in the

article.

 

> But should his disciples speak out that way too?

> And if they do, is it all right for the BBT to publish what they say?

 

In this case I don't think they should. But that is just my personal

opinion. Therefore again I simply ask, what is the official editorial

policy in these matters? Are all Srila Prabhupada's disciple's

opinions on all subjects equally acceptable to be published by BBTI

and/or on krishna.com?

 

ys

 

Gaura Keshava das

(aka Greg)