Srila Prabhupada as an authorized diksa guru but none of his

[Guest guest]

Dear Madhusudana Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP!

 

> Because Srila Prabhupada says he was ordered/authorized by his guru to be

> a diksa guru.

 

I accept that answer although it is not the perfect answer. I accept Srila

Prabhupada as an authorized diksa guru because my spiritual master and the

sadhus said so, and it is also confirmed by the sastras that describe the

qualities of a diksa guru (remember, guru-sadhu-sastra).

 

> He proved by his potency that he was not only authorized BUT also

> qualified.

 

How many years after his initiation did his potency become manifest? Did you

wait that many years for the potency of his disciples to become manifest?

 

> There is NO acceptable evidence that Srila Prabhupada authorized any of

> his disciples to be diksa guru. We do have acceptable (written-documented)

> evidence that he wanted his disciples to be his ritvik representatives.

 

I assume you meant "(not) acceptable by IRM". I accept the evidence.

 

> (proof-Why don't you get Shankershan to put it in writting that he is a

> maha-bhagavat?)

 

Did Srila Prabhupada ever say that he is a maha-bhagavat? Please quote.

 

> If you can prove with documented evidence that Srila Prabhupada authorized

> any or all his disciples to be diksa gurus.

 

On April 22, 1977 he said that he shall do that. Are you saying that this

was an incorrect statement?

 

ys Ramakanta dasa

[Guest guest]

Ramakant prabhu.

 

Pamho. AgtSP.

 

 

--- "Ramakanta (das) HKS (PAMHO.NET SysOp) (Zurich -

CH)" <Ramakanta.HKS (AT) pamho (DOT) net> wrote:

 

> Dear Madhusudana Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP!

>

> > Because Srila Prabhupada says he was

> ordered/authorized by his guru to be

> > a diksa guru.

>

> I accept that answer although it is not the perfect

> answer. I accept Srila

> Prabhupada as an authorized diksa guru because my

> spiritual master and the

> sadhus said so, and it is also confirmed by the

> sastras that describe the

> qualities of a diksa guru (remember,

> guru-sadhu-sastra).

>

> > He proved by his potency that he was not only

> authorized BUT also

> > qualified.

>

> How many years after his initiation did his potency

> become manifest? Did you

> wait that many years for the potency of his

> disciples to become manifest?

>

 

 

 

 

Is this what YOU are refering to?

 

FACT: ISKCON gurus have opposed, oppressed and driven

out many sincere Godbrothers and Godsisters.

FACT: ISKCON gurus have usurped and misused money, and

diverted other ISKCON resources for their own personal

prestige and sense gratification.

FACT: ISKCON gurus have had illicit sexual intercourse

with both women and men, and possibly children as

well.

FACT: ..... (...etc, etc... )

('Where the ritvik People are Right, Jayadvaita

Swami, 1996)

 

 

 

 

> > There is NO acceptable evidence that Srila

> Prabhupada authorized any of

> > his disciples to be diksa guru. We do have

> acceptable (written-documented)

> > evidence that he wanted his disciples to be his

> ritvik representatives.

>

> I assume you meant "(not) acceptable by IRM". I

> accept the evidence.

 

 

 

 

Your evidence boils down to Shankarsan's say so.

Even so how does that authorize the other 80 or so,

supposed diksa gurus? Did Srila Prabhupada also

authorize them secretly as with Sankershan?

 

 

 

 

>

> > (proof-Why don't you get Shankershan to put it in

> writting that he is a

> > maha-bhagavat?)

>

> Did Srila Prabhupada ever say that he is a

> maha-bhagavat? Please quote.

 

 

He said he was an initiating guru (diksa).....

 

Yes, I am the Spiritual Master of this institution,

and ALL the members of the Society, they're supposed

to be MY disciples. They follow the rules and

regulations which I ask them to follow, and they are

INITIATED by me spiritually. So therefore the

Spiritual Master is called Guru. That is Sanskrit

language." (Srila Prabhupada Radio Interview March 12,

1968, San Francisco)

 

 

Srila Prabhupada unequivocally stated that the diksa

guru must be a maha-bhagavata (most advanced stage of

God-realisation) and be specifically authorised by his

own spiritual master. He had always strongly condemned

the assumption of guruship by those who were not

suitably qualified and authorised. I quote below from

Srila Prabhupada's books where the qualifications of

the diksa guru is stated.

 

*Maha-bhagavata*-srestho brahmano vai gurur nrnam

sarvesam eva lokanam asau pujyo yatha harih

maha-kula-prasuto' pi sarva-yajnesu *diksitah*

sahasra-sakhadhya yi ca na guruh syad avaisnavah

 

 

"The guru must be situated on the topmost platform

of devotional service. There are three classes of

devotees, and the guru must be accepted from the

topmost class." [......]

"When one has attained the topmost position of

maha-bhagavata, he is to be accepted as a guru and

worshipped exactly like Hari, the Personality of

Godhead. ONLY such a person is eligible to occupy the

post of a guru."

(C.c. Madhya, 24.330, purport)

 

 

Therefore Srila Prabhupada says he is a maha-bhagavat.

 

 

 

 

> > If you can prove with documented evidence that

> Srila Prabhupada authorized

> > any or all his disciples to be diksa gurus.

>

> On April 22, 1977 he said that he shall do that. Are

> you saying that this

> was an incorrect statement?

>

 

 

As pointed out previously, 'shall' means sometime in

the future. So please explain at what point in time

between 22nd April 1977 and now, did Srila Prabhupada

authorized diksa gurus in ISKCON.

 

Learn the truth about the ISKCON guru hoax

ISKCON Revival Movement - http://www.iskconirm.com

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Madhusudana Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP!

 

> Is this what YOU are refering to?

> FACT: ISKCON gurus have ...

 

No.

 

> Your evidence boils down to Sankarshan's say so.

 

Yes. As with Srila Prabhupada's authorization: He just said so.

 

> Even so how does that authorize the other 80 or so, supposed diksa gurus?

> Did Srila Prabhupada also authorize them secretly as with Sankarshan?

 

I did not ask them.

 

Who told you that it was SECRETLY done? Is this your speculation?

 

> ... Therefore Srila Prabhupada says he is a maha-bhagavat.

 

Yeah, "Srila Prabbhupada said A and he said B. From A and B we can conlude

that he said C". (This is the kind of conclusion that I mentioned in my

previous text and that I ignore.)

 

> As pointed out previously, 'shall' means sometime in the future. So please

> explain at what point in time between 22nd April 1977 and now, did Srila

> Prabhupada authorized diksa gurus in ISKCON.

 

Indian man: When did he tell you to...?

Prabhupada: What is the business, when did he tell me?

And why shall I disclose to you? It is so very insignificant

thing that I have to explain to you?

Indian man: No, I am just curious when...

Prabhupada: You should be curious within your limit.

 

> > He presented the same authorization that also Srila Prabhupada

> > presented.

>

> So what about the other 80 pretenders? Srila Prabhupada supposedly also

> told them secretly to be diksa gurus?

 

I did not ask them.

 

> > The July 9th document does not say that no disciple of Srila Prabhupada

> > is authorized to initiate. Rather on April 22, 1977 Srila Prabhupada

> > said that he will authorize acaryas.

>

> So WHEN did this authorization take place?

 

I don't know.

 

> Is this PLAIN enough? ....

>

> If Srila Prabhupada didn’t clearly and definitely say it,

> and if it first came up after 1977,

> whatever it is, don’t trust it.

>

> —Rule of Thumb

> (Jas 1996)

 

"The Final Order" came up after 1977, so I don't trust it.

 

ys Ramakanta dasa