Guest guest Posted September 11, 2005 Report Share Posted September 11, 2005 Dear Madhusudana Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP! > Because Srila Prabhupada says he was ordered/authorized by his guru to be > a diksa guru. I accept that answer although it is not the perfect answer. I accept Srila Prabhupada as an authorized diksa guru because my spiritual master and the sadhus said so, and it is also confirmed by the sastras that describe the qualities of a diksa guru (remember, guru-sadhu-sastra). > He proved by his potency that he was not only authorized BUT also > qualified. How many years after his initiation did his potency become manifest? Did you wait that many years for the potency of his disciples to become manifest? > There is NO acceptable evidence that Srila Prabhupada authorized any of > his disciples to be diksa guru. We do have acceptable (written-documented) > evidence that he wanted his disciples to be his ritvik representatives. I assume you meant "(not) acceptable by IRM". I accept the evidence. > (proof-Why don't you get Shankershan to put it in writting that he is a > maha-bhagavat?) Did Srila Prabhupada ever say that he is a maha-bhagavat? Please quote. > If you can prove with documented evidence that Srila Prabhupada authorized > any or all his disciples to be diksa gurus. On April 22, 1977 he said that he shall do that. Are you saying that this was an incorrect statement? ys Ramakanta dasa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 11, 2005 Report Share Posted September 11, 2005 Ramakant prabhu. Pamho. AgtSP. --- "Ramakanta (das) HKS (PAMHO.NET SysOp) (Zurich - CH)" <Ramakanta.HKS (AT) pamho (DOT) net> wrote: > Dear Madhusudana Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP! > > > Because Srila Prabhupada says he was > ordered/authorized by his guru to be > > a diksa guru. > > I accept that answer although it is not the perfect > answer. I accept Srila > Prabhupada as an authorized diksa guru because my > spiritual master and the > sadhus said so, and it is also confirmed by the > sastras that describe the > qualities of a diksa guru (remember, > guru-sadhu-sastra). > > > He proved by his potency that he was not only > authorized BUT also > > qualified. > > How many years after his initiation did his potency > become manifest? Did you > wait that many years for the potency of his > disciples to become manifest? > Is this what YOU are refering to? FACT: ISKCON gurus have opposed, oppressed and driven out many sincere Godbrothers and Godsisters. FACT: ISKCON gurus have usurped and misused money, and diverted other ISKCON resources for their own personal prestige and sense gratification. FACT: ISKCON gurus have had illicit sexual intercourse with both women and men, and possibly children as well. FACT: ..... (...etc, etc... ) ('Where the ritvik People are Right, Jayadvaita Swami, 1996) > > There is NO acceptable evidence that Srila > Prabhupada authorized any of > > his disciples to be diksa guru. We do have > acceptable (written-documented) > > evidence that he wanted his disciples to be his > ritvik representatives. > > I assume you meant "(not) acceptable by IRM". I > accept the evidence. Your evidence boils down to Shankarsan's say so. Even so how does that authorize the other 80 or so, supposed diksa gurus? Did Srila Prabhupada also authorize them secretly as with Sankershan? > > > (proof-Why don't you get Shankershan to put it in > writting that he is a > > maha-bhagavat?) > > Did Srila Prabhupada ever say that he is a > maha-bhagavat? Please quote. He said he was an initiating guru (diksa)..... Yes, I am the Spiritual Master of this institution, and ALL the members of the Society, they're supposed to be MY disciples. They follow the rules and regulations which I ask them to follow, and they are INITIATED by me spiritually. So therefore the Spiritual Master is called Guru. That is Sanskrit language." (Srila Prabhupada Radio Interview March 12, 1968, San Francisco) Srila Prabhupada unequivocally stated that the diksa guru must be a maha-bhagavata (most advanced stage of God-realisation) and be specifically authorised by his own spiritual master. He had always strongly condemned the assumption of guruship by those who were not suitably qualified and authorised. I quote below from Srila Prabhupada's books where the qualifications of the diksa guru is stated. *Maha-bhagavata*-srestho brahmano vai gurur nrnam sarvesam eva lokanam asau pujyo yatha harih maha-kula-prasuto' pi sarva-yajnesu *diksitah* sahasra-sakhadhya yi ca na guruh syad avaisnavah "The guru must be situated on the topmost platform of devotional service. There are three classes of devotees, and the guru must be accepted from the topmost class." [......] "When one has attained the topmost position of maha-bhagavata, he is to be accepted as a guru and worshipped exactly like Hari, the Personality of Godhead. ONLY such a person is eligible to occupy the post of a guru." (C.c. Madhya, 24.330, purport) Therefore Srila Prabhupada says he is a maha-bhagavat. > > If you can prove with documented evidence that > Srila Prabhupada authorized > > any or all his disciples to be diksa gurus. > > On April 22, 1977 he said that he shall do that. Are > you saying that this > was an incorrect statement? > As pointed out previously, 'shall' means sometime in the future. So please explain at what point in time between 22nd April 1977 and now, did Srila Prabhupada authorized diksa gurus in ISKCON. Learn the truth about the ISKCON guru hoax ISKCON Revival Movement - http://www.iskconirm.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2005 Report Share Posted September 14, 2005 Dear Madhusudana Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP! > Is this what YOU are refering to? > FACT: ISKCON gurus have ... No. > Your evidence boils down to Sankarshan's say so. Yes. As with Srila Prabhupada's authorization: He just said so. > Even so how does that authorize the other 80 or so, supposed diksa gurus? > Did Srila Prabhupada also authorize them secretly as with Sankarshan? I did not ask them. Who told you that it was SECRETLY done? Is this your speculation? > ... Therefore Srila Prabhupada says he is a maha-bhagavat. Yeah, "Srila Prabbhupada said A and he said B. From A and B we can conlude that he said C". (This is the kind of conclusion that I mentioned in my previous text and that I ignore.) > As pointed out previously, 'shall' means sometime in the future. So please > explain at what point in time between 22nd April 1977 and now, did Srila > Prabhupada authorized diksa gurus in ISKCON. Indian man: When did he tell you to...? Prabhupada: What is the business, when did he tell me? And why shall I disclose to you? It is so very insignificant thing that I have to explain to you? Indian man: No, I am just curious when... Prabhupada: You should be curious within your limit. > > He presented the same authorization that also Srila Prabhupada > > presented. > > So what about the other 80 pretenders? Srila Prabhupada supposedly also > told them secretly to be diksa gurus? I did not ask them. > > The July 9th document does not say that no disciple of Srila Prabhupada > > is authorized to initiate. Rather on April 22, 1977 Srila Prabhupada > > said that he will authorize acaryas. > > So WHEN did this authorization take place? I don't know. > Is this PLAIN enough? .... > > If Srila Prabhupada didn’t clearly and definitely say it, > and if it first came up after 1977, > whatever it is, don’t trust it. > > —Rule of Thumb > (Jas 1996) "The Final Order" came up after 1977, so I don't trust it. ys Ramakanta dasa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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