Guest guest Posted July 8, 2005 Report Share Posted July 8, 2005 Dear Giri-Nayaka Prabhu Hare Krishna! Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada! It is a touchy subject. And you have admitted that you did not have a good answer to it, except Sadaputa Prabhu's answer, which you quoted here. But his answer is the Moon is closer than the Sun and Prabhupada was therefore mistaken. Apparently Prabhupada does not understand the Bhagavatam as well as Sadaputa does. We still come to the same conclusion. And you state that: "I was able to tell him that Prabhupada was probably not concerned with distances, since his main point was they never went to the moon." But that is your mental speculation. It is not even what Sadaputa says, not to speak of what Prabhupada says. Prabhupada's point is that they could not have traveled to the Moon in the time it supposedly took because he knows the Moon is further away than the Sun. That is the point. That they can not have gone to the Moon because the Moon is too far away for them to have reached in the time they traveled at the speed they say they traveled. >as explained by Sadaputa Prabhu, Bhagavatam says that moon is closer to >Bharata Varsa than the sun. That is also supported by other sastra. Now, >Sadaputa Prabhu may be wrong, but his points seem clear and understandable. Yes. Clear and understandable points are not necessarily correct. Particularly when they contradict the direct words of Srila Prabhupada. I have read Sadaputa's books and his method is to accept the modern scientists as correct and to try to show that the Vedic description agrees with modern science and in this way he supports modern science. That is the direct opposite to Srila Prabhupada's approach which is to call the modern scientists rascals and fools and to say very boldly that they have no real knowledge because everything they know has come through information gathered through their imperfect senses, it is also faulty because of the problem that all conditioned souls make mistakes, they cheat and they are illusioned (it means they accept something to be a fact which is not actually true). So here we have a case where Srila Prabhupada clearly says over and over again that the Moon is further away from than the Sun and Sadaputa proves that Prabhupada is wrong and modern science is right. You have to decide who you want to accept as your guru. The modern scientists & Sadaputa or Srila Prabhupada. The reality is that modern science knows very little about the universe. Srila Prabhupada says the scientists are like frogs in a well. That is such a nice analogy. A frog who has lived in a three-foot wide well his whole life can have no real understanding of the world beyond his well. He knows the well. He knows there is a round hole above him which is sometimes blue, sometimes white and sometimes black. Sometimes some drops of water fall on his head from the "sky" and on very rare occasions he sees a huge shiny ball which fills up the entire "sky" with blinding light. And also rarely, very rarely, he gets to see the moon, he sees stars of course, when it is not cloudy. And he has noticed that the drops of water that fall into his well generally only come when the sky is cloudy. So he knows the rain is connected with the clouds. In this way, over many years, and with a great deal of study and research, he thinks he knows how the universe is working. He thinks he is a great, great scientist, but what does he know really? Nothing. So one day a frog hops into our Dr. Frog PHd.'s well. And this new frog has traveled. He has seen the Atlantic ocean. And he tries to explain this vast mass of water, the Atlantic ocean, to our friend, Dr. Frog. But he can only conceive of things in relation to what he has experienced in the well. So he asks "Is this Atlantic ocean twice as big as my well?", "Three times?", "Ten times?" in this way our Dr. Frog can never conceive of the Atlantic ocean. The universe is like that and the scientists are like Dr. Frog with such a tiny insignificant view of an infinitesimal part of the universe, so they have no hope of understanding how the universe is working. There are other examples. One is a tiny ant in a huge complicated machine. So many parts are moving and doing things. But how can the ant understand what is the purpose of the machine? So this universe is a great machine and it is situated within a sphere which is 4 billion miles across, there is water in the bottom half of the universe and on that water Vishnu is lying and from His navel a lotus stem sprouts and on the top of the lotus flower Lord Brahma is born. And in the beginning even Lord Brahma could not understand where he was and what he was supposed to be doing there. But he heard the syllables "ta pa" which mean to perform austerity, tapasya, so he did that. And after some time he could understand where he was and what was his duty. We have so many facts about the universe from the Srimad-Bhagavatam that the "Dr. Frog" scientists can never discover. Because these things are "avan manasa gochara," it means beyond the ability of the mind to imagine and beyond the ability of the senses to perceive. By observation and experimentation the scientists will never be able to work out that the bottom half of the universe is full of water and that Vishnu is lying on the water. They will never know that beyond all the coverings of this universe there are many other universes clustered together all floating on the casual ocean. They can never know that when Maha Vishnu breathes out so many universes are coming out of the pores of his body like perspiration comes out of our pores. They can never know that when Maha Vishnu breathes in all the universes again enter within His body. Although they do not know these things we can explain them to the scientists and they will find it very interesting. We know so many things. Like for example the moon is one of the stars. It is like a star. It reflects light from the Sun, so do the stars. There is only one sun in the universe, the stars are like the Moon, not like the sun. The Earth is in the center of Bhu-mandala, which is in the center of the universe and all the planets and stars and constellations are rotating around the polestar. The whole system is set up like a tree with its roots up and branches down. All the stars are fixed up on a particular place on the tree and the whole tree is rotating around 1 complete revolution in 24 hours, causing everything to rise and set in the sky, this is NOT caused by the earth rotating. The earth does not rotate at all. As the signs of the zodiac cross the sky, the whole thing moves gradually around the entire circumference of the universe about one degree every day. The whole 360 degrees is traveled in 12 months. The planets and moon and sun are also rotating with the tree, but they also have their own movement, that is why they are seen sometimes in one constellation, and sometimes in another. You see this is all completely different from modern science therefore Sadaputa's position that the Vedas agree with modern science and even ratify modern science is so completely wrong. As I said before this is the complete opposite of what Prabhupada preaches. And as followers of Srila Prabhupada we are duty bound to present the same message he has given us to others. That is our business. There are so many details but the real point is that we can not gain any real knowledge through this "scientific method." It is useless. It is a fundamentally flawed process for acquiring knowledge. And we can see that. Pick up a text book from 100 years ago in almost any field of science and from today's point of view you will find so many mistakes. And today's science books are no better. Everything is wrong. You know they teach evolution as a fact. They claim that by natural selection all the species came into existence from one single celled creature that somehow came into existence in a primordial soup somewhere in a lightning storm. And from that moment, everything developed, completely by chance... It is all nonsense, completely wrong. That is modern science. The only explanation for the creation of the universe they can give us is, "It all happened by chance, there is no God in control, only chance." They are fools, first class fools and rascals, just like Prabhupada tells us they are. But we don't want to believe Prabhupada.... You know that modern science tries to explain the entire manifestation of this universe as simply a chance combination of earth, water, air and fire. That is all they know. Krishna tells us "bhumi apo alana vayu kham mano buddhi eva ca ahankara iti yam me binna prakriti astadha," He says, earth, water, air, fire, mind, intelligence and false ego these constitute my separated material energy. But scientists have no idea of these things, mind, intelligence, false ego. And this is all material. They do not even understand the material energies. What to speak of the soul and the Supersoul. Modern science is COMPLETELY on the bodily platform. They do not know anything except the gross material elements and they have developed an elaborate system of knowledge based on ignorance. They have built castles on sand. Their starting assumptions are wrong. They assume they can understand everything by studying the material energy. But that is not possible. It is like a child. He sees cars driving around and does not realize there are people inside controlling and directing the cars. He finds a car (with no driver in it) and is pulling the car to bits and trying to analyze it and work out want makes it run and trying to find out how it "knows" when to stop at the red lights and go at the green lights, how it seems to have some direction, some purpose... He is trying to work this out from studying the nuts and bolts of the car... It is childish. It is foolish. The car is simply a machine, it is being controlled by the driver, a living spiritual force. To understand how the car is moving around without understanding that there is a spiritual force, a person, directing it is foolish. And that is exactly what the scientists are trying to do. They are trying to explain that we do not have souls, we are elaborate chemical combinations, and there is no purpose of this world, it all came about by chance, and there is no God in control. That is the religion of science, and science is the religion of the athiests. They give "scientific" explanations as to why there is no need for God. So they are fools and rascals and we should not forget that. Please forgive me for going off on a tangent here but there is a bigger picture and I hope you can see that. If you start by saying Prabhupada is wrong and Sadaputa has a better explanation of the Bhagavatam then you have short-circuited everything. No one is going to become Krishna conscious by reading Sadaputa's books. But everyone who reads Prabhupada's books will ultimately become Krishna conscious, even Sadaputa. But right now he is on the side of the scientists, not on the side of Prabhupada. And we have to be careful like that. Maya can be very tricky. Hope you are well. Chant Hare Krishna and be happy! Your servant Madhudvisa dasa Giri-nayaka (das) BVS (Ljubljana - SLO) [Giri-nayaka.BVS (AT) pamho (DOT) net] Thursday, July 07, 2005 2:04 PM Balarama LOK; Madhudvisa (das) (ITV Los Angeles, CA - US); Understanding Srila Prabhupada's Teachings The Sun Is Closer Than The Moon Dear Madhudvisa Prabhu. Pamho. AgtSP. At first it seems as a touchy subject, I know. But, please don't think, that I'm trying to undermine Srila prabhupadas authority or something like that. Not at all. Quite the opposite. Like I said, this question was posted by another devotee (please see it in recent posting by Caitanya Candrodaya Prabhu), and I had no really good answer to it, besides that of Sadaputa Prabhu, which I quoted also here. And I was also able to tell him, that Srila Prabhupada was probably not so concerned about distances, since his main point was, that they never went to the moon. > > There is no question. Prabhupada has let us know for sure on many > occasions that the Moon is further away than the Sun. And it is described > like that in the Bhagavatam also. That the Moon is much bigger than the > Sun. But the Moon and the Sun appear to be the same size to us. So if we > accept the Bhagavatam's description of the relative sizes of the Moon and > Sun the Moon has to be further away. As explained by Sadaputa Prabhu, Bhagavatam says that moon is closer to Bharata Varsa than the sun. That is also supported by other sastra. Now, Sadaputa Prabhu may be wrong, but his points seem clear and understandable. It is true, that acording to SB the Sun is closer to Bhu-mandala (larger earth). But at the same time, it is further away from Jambudvipa and Bharata Varsa (which is our earth). So, both is true. There is just one slight disagreement in numbers, and it is a bit hard to grasp. It took me some time to figure out what the other devotee is actually speaking about. I needed to use some calculator and paper. And, of course, while not understanding his point, I blasted him away several times for his "wrong" opinion. BTW. ============ Prabhupada: It does not look bigger than the sun. May be bigger. Hare Krsna. [break] >>> Ref. VedaBase => Morning Walk -- November 29, 1975, Delhi ============ > > In this text you are saying, more or less, "What Prabhupada says in the > Bhagavatam seems to be wrong, here is my explanation, it is better." No, not really. Why would I say anything like that. I'm just saying that it is not clear to me, why would Srila Prabhupada present the point numerically different than in sastra. It is not a challenging point, please don't jump to conclusions too soon. I reacted similarly to this question, as it was raised in "Understanding Srila Prabhupada's Teachings" conference. I said exactly the same points, as you did. Prabhupada is talking truth. It is just what is the truth? Is the truth in numbers or are numbers used to support higher truth? I picked up calculator and added numbers in Srimad Bhagavatam, to see where discrepancy is. You can do the same, if you want. Sadaputa prabhu also recognized this apparent contradiction in Srila Prabhupadas words. He comments, that SP is simply making the point that if you put together the Bhagavatam and modern astronomy you get a contradictory picture. Again, acording to SB, it can be viewed both ways. Both that the sun is closer, or that the moon is closer, depending of what you consider as earth. One earth is Bhu-mandala, and another earth is Bharata Varsa, part od Jambudvipa, central island of Bhu Mandala. > > There is something very seriously wrong with this. The words of the pure > devotee of Krishna are correct. We may not realize how they are correct. > But we have to accept that we are conditioned. We have imperfect senses, > we make mistakes, we are illusioned and we cheat. These faults all > conditioned souls, including the scientists, have. It is wrong, of course, the way you present it. But that is not what I'm aiming at, I assure you. I thought I was clear im my letter about my intention. Let me repeat my intention again, just to be clear. I noted this apparent discrepancy, and found explanation of Sadaputa Prabhu for it. From my experience I know, that usually there is more than one of such explanations. Different devotees give us more ways how to understand Srila Prabhupada in a better way. My question was like this: "Is this how we answer to people when they ask us, or maybe there are some other ways to look at this subject matter." So, I just wanted to know if explanation of Sadaputa Prabhu is "bonafide" and the only accepted in ISKCON, or maybe there is another explanation to it. > > The great benefit of receiving knowledge from Srila Prabhupada is it is > perfect and not flawed because of these four defects found in all > conditioned souls. Thank you for pointing this out. I was not going in this direction in any way, not even by far. Srila Prabhupada is right by definition, we all know that. But sometimes we don't understand some points well enough. And usually there are several ways how to understand some "contradictory" points. In this subject (moon) I was able to find only one explanation of Sadaputa Prabhu. I was just wondering if this is the only way to see it, or is there another way. Usually there is more than one way to see so-called "contradictory" points. > > So we may not understand exactly how what Srila Prabhupada is saying is > correct. But we understand it is correct. And if we surrender and serve > Srila Prabhupada then the knowledge and realization of the knowledge will > come to us. Yes, Srila Prabhupada is correct. There is of course no doubt about it. My letter is just a humble attempt to know, if there is another explanation on this subject besides that of Sadaputa Prabhu. > > But if we start off with the presumption that we have a greater ability to > understand the Srimad-Bhagavatam than Srila Prabhupada we are in real > trouble. Please, why would I do that? Interestingly, I reacted very similarly at first to the same questions put forward by another devotee. If you would like to see my replies, you can read them in "Understanding Srila Prabhupada's Teachings" conference. Now I know that I just didn't read another devotees letter carefully enough, and just unfairly attacked him for his "lack of faith". It was wrong from my side and now I'm just getting back what I deserve. I was jumping to conclusions abouth his faith in Srila Prabhupada too quickly, and now the same thing is happening to me. It is the mercy of devotees, and my great fortune, to be able to be guided in my attempts to serve Srila Prabhupada in his mission. Thank you your servant Giri-nayaka das Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 8, 2005 Report Share Posted July 8, 2005 Bhakta Mick Prabhu, Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada! "Regarding the scientists, we have entrusted our own three scientists namely Svarupa Damodara, Sadaputa, and Madhva and we leave the matter to them, we do not say anything ourselves, but are leaving it to them." - Srila Prabhupada It appears to contradict in principle with what you have said about the books of Sadaputa Prabhu. <<I have read Sadaputa's books and his method is to accept the modern scientists as correct and to try to show that the Vedic description agrees with modern science and in this way he supports modern science. That is the direct opposite to Srila Prabhupada's approach which is to call the modern scientists rascals and fools and to say very boldly that they have no real knowledge because everything they know has come through information gathered through their imperfect senses, it is also faulty because of the problem that all conditioned souls make mistakes, they cheat and they are illusioned (it means they accept something to be a fact which is not actually true). --- But everyone who reads Prabhupada's books will ultimately become Krishna conscious, even Sadaputa. But right now he is on the side of the scientists, not on the side of Prabhupada. And we have to be careful like that. Maya can be very tricky.>> Your servant Caitanya candrodaya dasa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 12, 2005 Report Share Posted July 12, 2005 Dear Prabhus, Please accept my humble obeisances, All glories to Srila Prabhupada. These are some thought I had on the subject. Jahnu Prabhu wrote: > Sada Puta prabhu has explained that when the moon is further away than the > sun it is to be understood that it is the distance to the plane of > bhumandala that is measured. So the moon is higher above bhumandala than > the > sun (and thus further away). The sun is closer to the plane but orbits it > further out than the moon. This is a good guess but lacks sufficient support from Bhagavatam. Taking the direct meaning of Bhagavatam instead of possible interpretations. The Bhagavatam gives very detailed description of the Sun's orbit around the Bhumandala. The Sun rides over the peaks of the Manasottara mountain which is located at a distance of 15750000 yojanas from the base of the Mount Meru. Also, we know that the Sun rotates in a circular orbit in a plane which is 100,000 yojanas above the Bhumanadala plane. So assuming that the Phythogoras theorem (right angle triangle) is applicable in this situation, we can find the point to point distance from base of the bhumandala to the centre of the Sun globe to be 15750300 yojanas. But the Bhagavatam 5th canto doesn't give much information about the nature of orbit of the Moon around the Mount Meru. The only information we have is it rotates on a plane that is 200,000 yojanas above the Bhumandala plane. We don't know whether the orbit is circular and if so what its radius is? Assuming its circular and restricted to a plane parallel to Bhumandala. For the Moon to be farther than the Sun from the base of the Bhumandala, its orbital radius should be no less than 15749000 yojanas. So since we don't have the necessary information to verify this, we should take shelter of the acaryas especially our Founder Acarya who consistently maintained Moon is farther than the Sun. And also SB 5.24.2 points out that the moon is twice as large as the Sun. "The sun globe, which is a source of heat, extends for 10,000 yojanas [80,000 miles]. The moon extends for 20,000 yojanas [160,000 miles], and Rähu extends for 30,000 yojanas [240,000 miles]." And from our normal human perspective we can see that Moon looks smaller than the Sun if not bigger. This goes well with the Bhagavatam perspective that the Moon is bigger and farther than the Sun. This was also pointed out by Madhudvisa Prabhu. Hope this helps. Let me know if I got something wrong. Your Servant, Laksmi Nrsinghadeva das Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 2005 Report Share Posted September 30, 2005 The Sun is closer because of rays. There is no difference between Sun and Sun rays. It is not point of mechanical distance.When we on Eart speak of distance we immeadetly think of distance to touch... We are this frogs that cant understandt dimensions of ocean. We dont need even to try to understand this kind of information because is not possible for us with limited senses and mind to get real expiriance of it. We can see it if Sri Krisna will so.. otherwise we can not see it by our own power. In Srimad Bhagavatam is explaind that on way to Krishna we have to get first relisation of Brahman,then Paramatma and then Bhagavan. So realisation of Brahman is to see this creation as it is. Out of mind (borders and jugment).All is one. Same same but different. And it is scarry platform.You can loose gravitation and foll down in universe.Because for you is no anymore up and down left and right,good or bad. Then you are call brahman,someone who has realised Brahman.You are part of it.Not teoreticaly but realy.Then you can fly anywher in universe. In this platform you dont have contact with nothing and you are sure that you are eternal.Super sure.In this moment you ARE.You dont feel that you belong to anywhere or anyone. So if you are on this level then you will and can understand what is meaning of statment that Srila Prabhupad said that Moon is closer then Sun. But it is not so important if Moon or Sun is closer... Someone who is really on Brahman platform can help you to get this platform. This brahman tread is not meaning that tis person have brahman realisation. Someone who is on this platform dont complane and he dont look for a better.Na socati na kanksati.. And one more thing. If you have any fear you will never never come to Krishna.Never even on Brahman platform. ys.naikaja das Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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