Guest guest Posted October 28, 2005 Report Share Posted October 28, 2005 > 2) "The ritvik system has never happened before." > > a) Srila Prabhupada never states that if something has > not happened before it must be rejected. > b) If we rejected something simply on the basis that > it has not happened before, then the first thing we > must reject is the GBC's Guru system, with its > voted-in, non-Indian Gurus; a system which has never > been practised before. > c) There is no historical precedent for a disciple to > reject an order of his Guru purely on the basis that > it has no historical precedent, therefore the argument > is self-contradictory. > > Learn the truth about the ISKCON guru hoax > ISKCON Revival Movement - http://www.iskconirm.com What it all boils down to, really, is the question of the authority we select to follow. You can quote from Prabhupada from now on till the end of this Manu, but it's all meaningless if you have not understood his teachings. The devil also quotes the Bible, as they say. Now, I know you are not going to get any of this, since you are evidently not well versed in the science of guru-tattva, but I am just stating it for the record. You end every text of yours with the IRM logo, which promises to reveal the guru-hoax in ISKCON. That means you refer to them and accept IRM as authority. You advise us to follow that authority instead of the GBC and ISKCON. This is the real point under discussion here. Forget the quoting. So lets examine the authority you propose. If we take a quick, dispassionate look at the persons you propose as authorities it's a rather sorry sight: KK Desai - he has never lived in a temple, has never received any formal training as a devotee. He has never submitted to any devotional authority. He has never met Prabhupada, or associated closely with those who knew Prabhupada, and who received personal training and instructions from him. My question then is, how did he come to such insight in Srila Prabhupada's mission and legacy? Where did he get it from? Yet you claim that only he, and not one amongst Prabhupada's direct disciples and followers, has the ability to understand Prabhupada correctly. Can't you see the preposterous monstrosity of such a claim? When I ask, what are KK Desai's qualifications to expand and comment on guru-tattva, your only reply is, that he has properly understood what Prabhupada is saying. Are you for real? Is that all it takes for you to be convinced about something? I ask you again, what are KK Desai's qualifications to comment on guru tattva in the first place, and secondly, why should his comments be taken seriously, when he has no standing in any Vaishnava community and has never submitted to any vaishnava authority? Please answer that. You may say, he has submitted to Prabhupada, but then we want to see the evidence of that. What is the evidence that KK. Desai is a surrendered soul onto Prabhupada? Please tell me that. Another one of IRM's gurus is Adri-dharan. He is wanted by the police for the appropriation of tens of thousands of ISKCON dollars that went in his own pockets. He is a greedy person who manipulates and usurps the facilities of ISKCON to line his own pockets. What might be HIS qualification be to comment on guru-tattva? Would you care to enlighten us about why you think this is a proper person to receive instructions from? Please tell us what are his qualifications to instruct everyone in gurutattva. And Madhu Pandit - another person who by deceit, bribery and forgery of documents has stolen a whole gigantic temple project away from ISKCON and written it over in his own name, and who is now employing all his family members in the lucrative business of ripping off life members and congregation, pretending it is all done in ISKCON's good name. On the one hand he is denouncing ISKCON and taking its members to court over proprietorship, and on the other he is using ISKCON's good name to collect funds for himself and his family. Is that kind of hypocrisy a qualification you are looking for in an authority? I have to say, you are one duped person. What's wrong with you? You come across as someone who accepts his authorities blindly without any question or explanation, just as long as it is against ISKCON. And this we have to listen to? Only intellectual retards would fall for such nonsense. Actually, you are doing ISKCON a real service. I guess nothing is so bad that it is not good for something. If you can lure away any members of ISKCON, be my guest. Anyone, who will fall for the drivel you are presenting here, doesn't belong in ISKCON in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 1, 2005 Report Share Posted November 1, 2005 Dear Madhusudana Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP! > > > 2) "The ritvik system has never happened before." > > > > > > a) Srila Prabhupada never states that if something has not happened > > > before it must be rejected. > > > > This is a ludicrous argument ("Srila Prabhupada did not say, therefore > > the opposite is true"). > > You are inventing arguments NOT made in a). Please demonstrate how a) > above even suggests "therefore the opposite is true". If by your statement (a) you wanted to say that 'if something has not happened before, it does not have to be rejected', then this is a ludicrous argument. Any argument that begins with "Srila Prabhupada did not say" or similar is ludicrous. > > > b) If we rejected something simply on the basis that it has not > > > happened before, then the first thing we must reject is the GBC's Guru > > > system, > > > > What has the GBC's guru system to do with ritviks? Please explain. > > What make you think that the GBC's guru system does have something to do > with ritviks? Read b) carefully and show how b) has implied that the GBC's > guru system has something to do with ritviks. So we agree: The GBC's guru system has nothing to do with ritviks. Or does it? > > > with its voted-in, > > > > You misunderstood the current guru system. The GBC does not vote-in > > gurus. Where did you read that? Please quote. The GBC votes-out > > unqualified gurus. > > 'The word appointed is never used. But there are "candidates for > initiating guru", **VOTES** are taken, and those who make it through the > procedures become "ISKCON-APPROVED" or "ISKCON-authorised" gurus. (Jas > 1996) Yes, Jayadvaita Swami explained it well. www.dictionary.com says: vote in v : elect in a voting process; "They voted in Clinton" This is not what the GBC does. They is a vote if there is any objection. > > > c) There is no historical precedent for a disciple to reject an order > > > of his Guru purely on the basis that it has no historical precedent, > > > therefore the argument is self-contradictory. > > > > Another ludicrous argument. > > Why? I do not see what is ludicrous about c) above. Any statement that begins with "Srila Prabhupada did not say", "there is no historical precedence", or similar is ludicrous. After all, you cannot prove that 'Srila Prabhupada did not say' or 'there is no historical precedence'. ys Ramakanta dasa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 7, 2005 Report Share Posted November 7, 2005 Ramakant prabhu. Pamho. AgtSP. --- "Ramakanta (das)wrote: > Dear Madhusudana Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP! > > > > > > 2) "The ritvik system has never happened > before." > > > > > > > > a) Srila Prabhupada never states that if > something has not happened > > > > before it must be rejected. > > > > > > This is a ludicrous argument ("Srila Prabhupada > did not say, therefore > > > the opposite is true"). > > > > You are inventing arguments NOT made in a). Please > demonstrate how a) > > above even suggests "therefore the opposite is > true". > > If by your statement (a) you wanted to say that 'if > something has not > happened before, it does not have to be rejected', > then this is a ludicrous > argument. Any argument that begins with "Srila > Prabhupada did not say" or > similar is ludicrous. > What I find ludicrous is your inability to demonstrate as requested how a) above suggests "therefore the opposite is true". Why not take statement a) above as it is? Also your statement "Any argument that begins with "Srila Prabhupada did not say" or similar is ludicrous." Is also nonsense. The following is taken from statements by ISKCON 'gurus' and seniors. "I must also admit that **Srila Prabhupada did not say anything** very clearly about how the initiation system in ISKCON should be after his disappearance from this planet." (Bhakti Caru Swami, Day 3, LA Seminar,' Questions and Answers', Published on June 11, 2000) **Srila Prabhupada did not say** a word. He merely stood and walked quietly into his bedroom to take rest. Harikesa meanwhile continued to emphasize his point. "If Brahmananda was still the secretary, you'd never get away with this!" He cooled off, however, when I explained that Srila Prabhupada himself had asked me to read to him. Harikesa conceded that under the circumstances I had no choice but to do it. It was so transcendental, it was as if I suddenly ceased to exist. ***Prabhupada did not say*** even a word. It was just the prasadam, and Prabhupada became absorbed in Krsna. So I very quietly offered my obeisances and hurriedly left the room. **Prabhupada did not say** exactly what was wrong, but the devotees became distressed, especially the artist. Everyone felt uncomfortable until Srila Prabhupada found a solution. **Prabhupada did not say** they were all useless, but he told me in no uncertain terms that they were not important. **Srila Prabhupada did not say** much on that morning walk. Mainly he chanted japa. **But Srila Prabhupada did not say** that we have to become as pure as him before we could speak as plainly as him. So this last quote from ISKCON guru Bhakti Vikas Swami is according to you ludicrous? Maybe you should get an advisory seat on the GBC whereby you could give them all guidance on how to write without being ludicrous. Learn the truth about the ISKCON guru hoax ISKCON Revival Movement - http://www.iskconirm.com Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 9, 2005 Report Share Posted November 9, 2005 Dear Madhusudana Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP! > a) Srila Prabhupada never states that if something has not happened before > it must be rejected. > > What I find ludicrous is your inability to demonstrate as requested how a) > above suggests "therefore the opposite is true". Why not take statement a) > above as it is? If you take it as it is, then it is okay. But it is ludicrous to conclude from a) that if something has not happened before, then it does not have to be rejected. > Also your statement "Any argument that begins with "Srila Prabhupada did > not say" or similar is ludicrous." Is also nonsense. The following is > taken from statements by ISKCON 'gurus' and seniors. These statements are not arguments. I for example also say the July 9th letter does not say when the ritvik system was to be stopped. But I don't conclude that it had to be stopped or not to be stopped. ys Ramakanta dasa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 15, 2005 Report Share Posted November 15, 2005 Rama Kanta prabhu. Please accept my most humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. Ramakanta (das)wrote: > Dear Madhusudana Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP! > > > So this is our argument! Since Srila Prabhupada > never gave any instruction > > on stoping the ritvik system, then why was it > stopped? > > First, you cannot prove that Srila Prabhupada never > gave that instruction > because not everything what he said has been > recorded. > Yes but the burden of proof is on you. To prove that the system was to be stopped. Without any direct evidence from Srila Prabhupada to stop the system. Then there is absolutely no justification for stopping the system. > Second, even if it were true that he never gave that > instruction, that would > not mean that the ritvik system has not to be > stopped. > Rama Kant this is just more speculation. Human life has a higher purpose than simply to be engaged in mental gymnastics. Learn the truth about the ISKCON guru hoax ISKCON Revival Movement - http://www.iskconirm.com FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 15, 2005 Report Share Posted November 15, 2005 Rama Kant Prabhu. Please and accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. Ramakanta (das) wrote: > There was a "not" at the wrong place in my > statement. Correct is: > > Third, every time you present such a statement, I > can present a similar > statement that says the opposite: Well not quite correct since of all my statements are from Srila Prabhupada. Since Srila > Prabhupadas never gave any > instruction on continuing the ritvik system, then > why should it be > continued? This is simply nonsense. Childish prattle. Learn the truth about the ISKCON guru hoax ISKCON Revival Movement - http://www.iskconirm.com FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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