Guru parampara is going on.So now is 11 generation after Sri

[Guest guest]

Prabhupäda: Then, from Krishna, Närada. From Närada, Vyäsadeva. From

Vyäsadeva to Madhväcärya, from Madhväcärya to Ésvara Puri, Mädhavendra Puri,

then Caitanya Mahäprabhu, then His disciples, the six Goswämés, then Krishna

däsa Kaviräja, then Baladeva Vidyäbhüñaëa. So we are taking account very

rigidly from Caitanya Mahäprabhu, and I am the tenth generation from

Caitanya Mahäprabhu.

Mohsin Hassan: Yeah, the tenth. After you, is it any decision has been made

who will take over?

Prabhupäda: Yes. All of them will take over. These students, who are

initiated from me, all of them will act as I am doing. Just like I have got

many Godbrothers, they are all acting. Similarly, all these disciples which

I am making, initiating, they are being trained to become future spiritual

masters.

Mohsin Hassan: How many swamis do you initiated, American? I'm speaking just

on...

Prabhupäda: About ten.

Mohsin Hassan: You have ten swamis. And outside of swamis, what's the

lower...

Prabhupäda: Now, they're competent. They can, not only the swamis, even the

gåhasthas, they are called däsa adhikäré, and brahmacärés, everyone can,

whoever is initiated, he is competent to make disciples. But as a matter of

etiquette they do not do so in the presence of their spiritual master. This

is the etiquette. Otherwise, they are competent. They can make disciples and

spread. They can recruit more members in this. They do, but they are being

trained up. Just like here in this meeting, one of my disciples, he is

acting as priest. It is not myself; he is acting. So some of my students,

they are acting as priests, some of them are swamis, so they are competent

to make disciples.

Mohsin Hassan: Do you have any hope in the future that you, your movement,

will involve printing a lot of books, making..., building schools for your

children, for...?

Prabhupäda: Yes. We have got already many books. You have not seen?

Mohsin Hassan: Oh, yes. I have almost all of your printed, but I'm trying to

(indistinct)... Ramakrishna, they have big library and bookstore, and this

is where goes most of their income. I was wondering. And many..., they have

so many scholars for this movement because they are for a variety of

religions. And one argument I always receive from some teacher, they say

this movement insists on the chanting and they are not trying to open all

the other doors for other religions. And I have no answer to them.

[Guest guest]

The July 9th letter was sent to all GBCs and Temple

Presidents, and remains to this day the only signed

instruction on the future of initiation Srila

Prabhupada ever issued to the whole Society.

Commenting on the July 9th order, Jayadvaita Swami

wrote:

 

"Its authority is beyond question [...] Clearly, this

letter establishes a ritvik-guru system."

(Jayadvaita Swami 'Where the ritvik People are Wrong'

1996)

 

The source of the controversy arises from two

modifications, which were subsequently superimposed

over this otherwise clear and authoritative directive.

 

Modification a) : That the appointment of

representatives or ritviks was only temporary,

specifically to be terminated on the departure of

Srila Prabhupada.

Modification b) : Having ceased their representational

function, the ritviks would automatically become diksa

gurus, initiating persons as their own disciples, not

Srila Prabhupada's.

 

One could argue that the quote from Detroit given here

by Tripada (das)is evidence that diksa gurus must

exist after Srila Prabhupada's departure, hence

displacing any possible ritvik arrangement at such a

time. Objectively speaking this is the strongest piece

of evidence we have seen presented by the GBC in

support of the M.A.S.S., since it satisfies several of

the requisite criteria. Nevertheless there are still

several insurmountable problems with it in terms of

modifications A & B as we shall demonstrate.

 

In the case of Room Conversations, they cannot

possibly be considered a guaranteed means of relaying

important policy decisions to the entire movement

since:

 

1. No guarantee that any given recording would come

out audibly.

2. No guarantee the recording would be transcribed.

3. No guarantee that the tapes would be listened to in

time to act at the point of Srila Prabhupada's

departure.

4. Even if the tapes were listened to, the right

devotee would need to pick out the one or two relevant

sentences from literally hundreds of tapes in order to

obtain instructions on how to manage initiations

within ISKCON.

5. There is no single example of Srila Prabhupada

issuing important directives simply through some

casual chat with visitors, or private letters to

problem disciples.

 

With such serious unpredictable hurdles, it is

unreasonable to assume that information given in

private letters or lecture/morning walk/ room

conversations, and which is not then repeated in his

books or instructions to the whole society, is

intended to be used to modify an order which was

issued to the entire Movement.

 

It is unbelievable that anyone would direct a massive

world-wide organisation by telling a few people

something, but omit to ask them to tell everyone else.

Would Srila Prabhupada say something to a one time

visitor (Detroit), then rely on the tape being audibly

recorded; then rely on it being accurately

transcribed; then count on all his disciples

subscribing to the BBT tape ministry, then hope

against hope they all listen to the important bit

before he leaves the planet - and as a result develop

the correct initiation system. To argue this is pure

madness.

 

To illustrate our point, the Detroit conversation,

which is arguably the GBC's best evidence, was not

available in either a recorded or transcript form

until a few years ago. How can anyone believe it

contains information crucial to the running of ISKCON,

or which was meant to somehow displace an order which

was sent to the entire movement in 1977?

 

In the room conversation with Mohsin Hassan, Srila

Prabhupada states that anyone simply by being

initiated, everyone is 'competent' to be a diksa guru

even then in 1971:

 

'NOW they're competent'.

 

Srila Prabhupada has never taught that simply by

getting initiated one is automatically qualified to be

a diksa guru. In fact he has stated that one must

undergo much more purification - be able to control

all the 6 urges, remove all anarthas etc. etc. Thus to

suggest that this conversation with student Mr. Hassan

overturns all of Srila Prabhupada's subsequent and

previous teachings on the qualification of guru is

ludicrous.

 

Please also notice the following sentence also spoken

by Srila Prabhupada:

 

"Just like I have got many Godbrothers, they are all

acting."

 

Yet in 1973 Srila Prabhupada states that all his

godbrother's are 'dead men', and in 1974 that none of

them are 'qualified to be acharya', and later on that

they had disobeyed the order of the guru etc. etc. Yet

here, if we are to believe the interpretation of some,

they are held up as perfect examples of how one should

behave as diksa guru? Again does this statement to

student Mr. Hassan overturn everything else Srila

Prabhupada subsequently preached about his

godbrothers?

 

 

 

 

--- "Tripada (das) (Split - HR)" <Tripada (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

wrote:

 

> Prabhupäda: Then, from Krishna, Närada. From Närada,

> Vyäsadeva. From

> Vyäsadeva to Madhväcärya, from Madhväcärya to Ésvara

> Puri, Mädhavendra Puri,

> then Caitanya Mahäprabhu, then His disciples, the

> six Goswämés, then Krishna

> däsa Kaviräja, then Baladeva Vidyäbhüñaëa. So we are

> taking account very

> rigidly from Caitanya Mahäprabhu, and I am the tenth

> generation from

> Caitanya Mahäprabhu.

> Mohsin Hassan: Yeah, the tenth. After you, is it any

> decision has been made

> who will take over?

> Prabhupäda: Yes. All of them will take over. These

> students, who are

> initiated from me, all of them will act as I am

> doing. Just like I have got

> many Godbrothers, they are all acting. Similarly,

> all these disciples which

> I am making, initiating, they are being trained to

> become future spiritual

> masters.

> Mohsin Hassan: How many swamis do you initiated,

> American? I'm speaking just

> on...

> Prabhupäda: About ten.

> Mohsin Hassan: You have ten swamis. And outside of

> swamis, what's the

> lower...

> Prabhupäda: Now, they're competent. They can, not

> only the swamis, even the

> gåhasthas, they are called däsa adhikäré, and

> brahmacärés, everyone can,

> whoever is initiated, he is competent to make

> disciples. But as a matter of

> etiquette they do not do so in the presence of their

> spiritual master. This

> is the etiquette. Otherwise, they are competent.

> They can make disciples and

> spread. They can recruit more members in this. They

> do, but they are being

> trained up. Just like here in this meeting, one of

> my disciples, he is

> acting as priest. It is not myself; he is acting. So

> some of my students,

> they are acting as priests, some of them are swamis,

> so they are competent

> to make disciples.

> Mohsin Hassan: Do you have any hope in the future

> that you, your movement,

> will involve printing a lot of books, making...,

> building schools for your

> children, for...?

> Prabhupäda: Yes. We have got already many books. You

> have not seen?

> Mohsin Hassan: Oh, yes. I have almost all of your

> printed, but I'm trying to

> (indistinct)... Ramakrishna, they have big library

> and bookstore, and this

> is where goes most of their income. I was wondering.

> And many..., they have

> so many scholars for this movement because they are

> for a variety of

> religions. And one argument I always receive from

> some teacher, they say

> this movement insists on the chanting and they are

> not trying to open all

> the other doors for other religions. And I have no

> answer to them.

>

>

-----------------------

> To from this mailing list, send an email

> to:

> Initiations.in.ISKCON-Owner (AT) pamho (DOT) net

>

 

 

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