What is ISKCON? - Incompatibility with ISKCON

[Guest guest]

Dear Jahnu Dvipa Prabhu.

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

 

> Allow me to comment.

Thank you. I also have some comments to you points, if I may.

 

> > I know that ISKCON is officially identified with Srila Prabhupada. But

> > as more and more devotees disagree with more and more things in ISKCON,

> > it is becoming obvious, that ISKCON is doing more and more things, that

> > are not clearly connected to Srila Prabhupada's teachings.

>

> What you are saying is not logical. First you say that you don't know what

> ISKCON is. You ask the question, what is Iskcon? Then you say that more

> and more devotees disagree with ISKCON, and that many things are being

> done ISKCON that are clearly not connected to Prabhupada's teachings. If

> you don't know what ISKCON is, then you also don't know if ISKCON is doing

> things that are against Srila Prabhupada's teachings, or what it is that

> more and more devotees disagree with.

 

Yes, it is not logical. Thats why I proposed, that there are two ISKCONs,

both working in parallel inside one bigger ISKCON. First ISKCON is Srila

Prabhupada's ISKCON, which is formed out of Srila Prabhupada's instructions,

and is thus Srila Prabhupada's body. But there is another ISKCON, that I

call modern ISKCON, which is modern addition and extrapolation of Srila

Prabhupada's teachings. Actually I think I know what ISKCON is (to some

degree), I just cannot connect it with growing modern ISKCON.

 

>

> I propose that it is not ISKCON we disagree with, but certain devotees

> within ISKCON. If we disagree with some devotees in ISKCON, we can't say

> that 's the same as disagreeing with Iskcon. That's one point.

 

I agree that we disagree with devotees, not ISKCON itself. Of course, the

problem arises, when those certain devotees are in leadership positions,

namely Guru, GBC, or senior local leaders. Leaders represent ISKCON, since

their main duty is to take care, that everybody follows the principles, set

by Srila Prabhupada. If leaders develop interesting innovative ideas, they

tend to present them through their ISKCON leadership authority. And this is

the new modern ISKCON, that need not have much with original ISKCON, as set

by Srila Prabhupada.

 

> The next

> point is then to define ISKCON. ISKCON is defined by the principle of

> faith in Srila Prabhupada's instructions. Those who have the highest

> degree of faith in Srila Prabhupada are those who stay in ISKCON and serve

> in the system he set up. In my mind it's a very simple and straightforward

> - those who follow Srila Prabhupada against all odds and keep his mission

> going, those devotees, they are ISKCON.

 

Is that meaning, that those who say, that they have strong faith is Srila

Prabhupada, but distance themselves from ISKCON, actually have no faith? And

does it means, that if one just somehow manages to stay with ISKCON, that

this is the proof of his strong faith? I may accept this statements, but I

need something more to be sure. Right now it somehow doesn't stand quite

right. At least the part, that if one stays in ISKCON, he may have found

some other nectar, and it is not necesarilly faith in Srila Prabhupada, that

keeps him here. For those, who distanced themselves, you may be correct.

What about those, who were kicked out of ISKCON, or were sanctioned by

ISKCON in different ways for their incompatibility of understanding? No

faith too?

 

If ISKCON is defined by the principle of faith in Srila Prabhupada's

instructions, what about those in ISKCON, who openly opose Srila

Prabhupada's instructions, and present some other alternatives? Are they

ISKCON or not?

 

>

> But is Iskcon there are many devotees not all of whom we like or even have

> to like. It's is up to every single one of us to seek out the association

> of those of Prabhupada followers who have the most faith in him. Just to

> name an example, I am not speaking of you, but say a devotee suffers some

> injustice in Iskcon and then goes away disappointed, then that means he

> has not strong faith in Srila Prabhupada. If he had faith, he would stay

> and try to play whatever little part he could in Prabhupada's grand plan

> for the rectification of mankind.

 

Good point. Some half year ago I happened to speak with one Srila

Prabhupada's disciple, who mentioned, that he distanced himself from ISKCON.

And I remember writing to him very similar statement to yours above. I was

sure, that if he had real faith, he would have stayed and help. But several

things happened to me since then, and I'm not so sure anymore. Thats why I

asked question, if there are devotees, who are faithful to Srila Prabhupada,

even outside ISKCON. I'm not so sure anymore, that Srila Prabhupada

followership is limited exclusively to ISKCON. But I may be mistaken. I

stand to be corrected.

 

>

> You ask what we have to do... that's what we have to do. We have to find

> friends in ISKCON, those we can work with, and then stick with them. And

> as Prabhupada's granddiciples it behooves us to find those of Prabhupada's

> disciples who can help us increase our love for Prabhupada.

 

Thank you for this. It is just confusing to me, that in the process of

finding those, who help us increase our commitment to Srila Prabhupada, it

turns out, that some are not very helpful in this. Of course, devotees are

different, problem is more with those senior devotees, who are on leadership

positions. I wish at least they were more unified in their presentations.

>

> > My question is also, if there are any devotees at all in ISKCON, who

> > 100% accept everything that is modern ISKCON standing for. I haven't

 

> As I said, there is no such thing as disagreeing with ISKCON. To disagree

> with ISKCON is to disagree with Prabhupada, and we just established, that

> ISKCON are those devotees, who follow Prabhupada. You can't follow

> Prabhupada and not ISKCON. It's simply an oxymoron to think we can

> disagree with ISKCON.

 

Thats clear, thank you. But a thing happens, whem modern ISKCON comes into

play, as addition to Prabhupada's ISKCON. Because, if ISKCON are those

devotees, who follow Srila Prabhupada, then what is the status of those

devotees, who like to invent things? If they are ISKCON, they must be modern

ISKCON, because there is no place for inovations in Prabhupada's ISKCON. But

if there is no modern ISKCON, and they cannot fit in original ISKCON, then

wher do they fit? If they are not ISKCON, why are they giving impression,

that they are ISKCON.

 

I think the question of undefined ISKCON membership comes into play here.

ISKCON has no defined membership. There is no definition, who is ISKCON

member and who is not. And no definition, how one becomes member, and how

his membership stops. Basically, one cannot know for sure even if he himself

is member of ISKCON, what to speak of others.

 

> We can disagree with certain devotees in ISKCON, but

> then we have to find those we disagree with, and then serve Srila

> Prabhupada with them. Or if one doesn't have any friends in Iskcon, then

> he has to serve Prabhupada by himself, but that's very hard. It's very

> hard if not impossible to perform devotional service without the

> association of devotees. That's why devotees of ISKCON must stick

> together, because if you go any where else but Iskcon you will lose Srila

> Prabhupada. That's just all there is to it.

 

Yes, thats natural, to associate with similar minded devotees. The problem

is more evident in the proces of humble taking instruction from senior

leaders. One needs to value by himself, if what the speaker is saying, is

actually acceptable according to Srila Prabhupada. Which is a bit of

strange, because it almost means, that listener should have better

understanding od Srila Prabhupada's teachings then the speaker. I have no

solution an the moment, I'm just expressing my observations. I hope that we

can come to solution by this discussion.

>

 

> > Too many times I can observe the principle "We

> > used to think, but now we know!".

>

> That's another thing. We are bound to meet a lot of people who are in

> Iskcon for reasons other than surrendering to Prabhupada, but those we

> have to avoid.

 

You see, thats disturbing. Because it means that I have to judge what to

accept from seniors and what not. If I filter like this, then where is a

place for faith? Leaders represent ISKCON in the eyes of ordinary devotees.

How can there be cooperation, if there is no trust. And how can there be

trust, if one is to observe the motives of another person, even to the point

of avoiding him. Now, I'm not saying, that everybody should be pure

devotees. I feel, it would help, if ISKCON would have things defined, and if

there would be some system of sanctioning those, who fall out of ISKCON's

scope.

 

> I don't have to like each and every devotee in Iskcon.

> but I have to like Prabhupada, and those devotees who have dedicated their

> lives to him. That's all I have to worry about.

 

I feel the same, but also I know that such understanding is socially not

very desirable. I think your statement is quite revolutionary. I wonder

how it will be perceived by those, who propagate love and friendliness

between all devotees, and preach against any faultfinding and judging. You

know, that all devotees should be like bees and only see good in others....

>

>

> >

> > So, what is ISKCON? What we do, or what we should be doing?

>

> ISKCON does not drive away devotees. Devotees drive themselves away from

> Iskcon because of a lack of faith in Prabhupada. You have to connect with

> devotees in Iskcon you have faith in.

>

There is one argument, that one cam come up with. What if somebody is driven

away because of devotees inventing feminism or homosexuality? Or because

leaders cherish ideas of adjusting Srila Prabhupada's books for wider

public? How is this because of lack of faith in Srila Prabhupada? You mean,

that if one would really have faith in Srila Prabhupada, he would not be

disturbed by all such speculations, and would instead fight against them?

Are you saying, that one needs not accept such things, although they are

happening inside of ISKCON? But then this is a proof, that some parts of

ISKCON may be questionable. And this goes against your definition of ISKCON

being defined by Srila Prabhupada's instructions. It is not logical too.

 

I suggest, that there are two ISKCONs. One is original, Srila Prabhupada's

ISKCON, defined by Srila Prabhupada's instructions. And another is

modern-ISKCON, formed by devotees, and defined by all kinds of social

interactions between ISKCON devotees. This two ISKCONs are working in

parallel, and are sometimes very incompatible. And one should learn to

differentiate between them. One should have strong faith in original ISKCON,

and be very careful about modern ISKCON. What do you think about this?

 

your servant Giri-nayaka das