What is ISKCON? - Incompatibility with ISKCON

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> Yes, it is not logical. Thats why I proposed, that there are two ISKCONs,

> both working in parallel inside one bigger ISKCON. First ISKCON is Srila

> Prabhupada's ISKCON, which is formed out of Srila Prabhupada's

> instructions, and is thus Srila Prabhupada's body. But there is another

> ISKCON, that I call modern ISKCON, which is modern addition and

> extrapolation of Srila Prabhupada's teachings. Actually I think I know

> what ISKCON is (to some degree), I just cannot connect it with growing

> modern ISKCON.

 

Actually, there is only one ISKCON, and it consists of those most faithful

to Srila Prabhupada, and who work together to make his mission a success.

Anything else outside of that is not ISKCON. ISKCON is modern, no doubt

about it, but it is also ancient. The details may be modern, but the

principles are ancient.

 

> I agree that we disagree with devotees, not ISKCON itself. Of course, the

> problem arises, when those certain devotees are in leadership positions,

> namely Guru, GBC, or senior local leaders. Leaders represent ISKCON, since

> their main duty is to take care, that everybody follows the principles,

> set by Srila Prabhupada. If leaders develop interesting innovative ideas,

> they tend to present them through their ISKCON leadership authority. And

> this is the new modern ISKCON, that need not have much with original

> ISKCON, as set by Srila Prabhupada.

 

There is no such thing as a new modern ISKCON. If the new and modern Iskcon

does not have much to do with Srila Prabhupada's original Iskcon, then the

new and modern Iskcon is not Iskcon at all, it is something else. Therefore

I say, you have to find the core of devotees in Iskcon, who are true to

Srila Prabhupada's version, and then cling on to them.

 

 

> Is that meaning, that those who say, that they have strong faith is Srila

> Prabhupada, but distance themselves from ISKCON, actually have no faith?

 

How can they have faith, if they distance themselves from Prabhupada's

movement? They can distance themselves from certain devotees in Iskcon but

then they have to find some other devotees in Iskcon to associate with. If

they go outside of Iskcon for devotional association, it means they have no

strong faith in Srila Prabhupada, because he said under all circumstances to

stay in Iskcon.

 

> And does it means, that if one just somehow manages to stay with ISKCON,

> that this is the proof of his strong faith? I may accept this statements,

> but I need something more to be sure. Right now it somehow doesn't stand

> quite right. At least the part, that if one stays in ISKCON, he may have

> found some other nectar, and it is not necessarily faith in Srila

> Prabhupada, that keeps him here. For those, who distanced themselves, you

> may be correct. What about those, who were kicked out of ISKCON, or were

> sanctioned by ISKCON in different ways for their incompatibility of

> understanding? No faith too?

 

You can't be kicked out of Iskcon. You can only leave yourself. If you were

forced out by some devotees or even big leaders, then you are always free to

go somewhere else in Iskcon to be. That's why you need friends in Iskcon.

You have to make friends with the devotees who are equal to you, listen to

those who are more advanced than you etc. It's loving exchanges between

devotees. If there is not a single devotee in Iskcon whom you can relate to,

yes, then you can go away. Not before. But you cannot tell me that this is

so. Maybe someone doesn't agree with the leaders of his temple. Then he can

go to another temple. There is a whole world of Iskcon out there.

Practically every country of the planet there is an Iskcon temple.

 

> If ISKCON is defined by the principle of faith in Srila Prabhupada's

> instructions, what about those in ISKCON, who openly oppose Srila

> Prabhupada's instructions, and present some other alternatives? Are they

> ISKCON or not?

 

If you openly oppose Srila Prabhupada's instructions, then you are of course

not Iskcon.

 

> Good point. Some half year ago I happened to speak with one Srila

> Prabhupada's disciple, who mentioned, that he distanced himself from

> ISKCON. And I remember writing to him very similar statement to yours

> above. I was sure, that if he had real faith, he would have stayed and

> help. But several things happened to me since then, and I'm not so sure

> anymore. Thats why I asked question, if there are devotees, who are

> faithful to Srila Prabhupada, even outside ISKCON. I'm not so sure

> anymore, that Srila Prabhupada followership is limited exclusively to

> ISKCON. But I may be mistaken. I stand to be corrected.

 

There are surely people outside of Iskcon who are faithful to Srila

Prabhupada, but who just wants to be in maya. But if some one goes anywhere

else but to Prabhupada's devotees for association, then it means he does not

have strong faith in Prabhupada. He has little faith but not strong.

 

> Thank you for this. It is just confusing to me, that in the process of

> finding those, who help us increase our commitment to Srila Prabhupada, it

> turns out, that some are not very helpful in this. Of course, devotees are

> different, problem is more with those senior devotees, who are on

> leadership positions. I wish at least they were more unified in their

> presentations.

 

You are right, I would also be confused if I had to join Iskcon today. When

I joined, it was like entering boot camp. All Prabhupada disciples were pure

devotees and anyone in the temple who joined before you, was your authority.

And you got initiated automatically by the guru in your zone. LIfe was very

simple in those days. I Even though I served under TPs and sankirtanleaders

with massive false egos, I am today eternally grateful to Krishna that He

made me stick it out, and I am eternally grateful to the devotees who stood

out with me.

 

> Thats clear, thank you. But a thing happens, whem modern ISKCON comes into

> play, as addition to Prabhupada's ISKCON. Because, if ISKCON are those

> devotees, who follow Srila Prabhupada, then what is the status of those

> devotees, who like to invent things? If they are ISKCON, they must be

> modern ISKCON, because there is no place for inovations in Prabhupada's

> ISKCON. But if there is no modern ISKCON, and they cannot fit in original

> ISKCON, then wher do they fit? If they are not ISKCON, why are they giving

> impression, that they are ISKCON.

 

Maybe because they need to justify themselves, but how is that your problem?

Your problem is to find those devotees you can click with and avoid those

you can't stand or who are hypocrites etc. of course there will be all kinds

of people with different motivations in such a large organization as ISKCON.

I am sure many join Iskcon just to have a worldwide network to move around

in. That you can never stop. What you can do is to stop associating with

them. Simply only associate with those who have pure motivation to be in

Iskcon. If you do that you will always be safe. Who cares if there

feminists, or this that in Iskcon? As if that was a real problem. The only

problem we have in Iskcon is that there are more kanistha devotees than

there are pure devotees. And the only solution to that problem is to engage

in devotional service.

 

> I think the question of undefined ISKCON membership comes into play here.

> ISKCON has no defined membership. There is no definition, who is ISKCON

> member and who is not. And no definition, how one becomes member, and how

> his membership stops. Basically, one cannot know for sure even if he

> himself is member of ISKCON, what to speak of others.

 

You can always know for sure if you are e member of iskcon. If in your heart

you are faithful to Srila Prabhupada, and appreciate Prabhupada's devotees

despite all their faults, then you are a member of Iskcon. Membership is

simply defined as being a follower of Prabhupada. All followers of

Prabhupada are members of Iskcon as far as I am concerned.

 

> Yes, thats natural, to associate with similar minded devotees. The problem

> is more evident in the proces of humble taking instruction from senior

> leaders. One needs to value by himself, if what the speaker is saying, is

> actually acceptable according to Srila Prabhupada. Which is a bit of

> strange, because it almost means, that listener should have better

> understanding od Srila Prabhupada's teachings then the speaker. I have no

> solution an the moment, I'm just expressing my observations. I hope that

> we can come to solution by this discussion.

 

It is actually good to evaluate other devotees so you know whom to listen to

and who to avoid. That's why you have to study Prabhupada's teachings very

carefully, because then you can know who the real devotees are.

 

> You see, thats disturbing. Because it means that I have to judge what to

> accept from seniors and what not.

 

How is it disturbing? It's good you have to judge, because then you need to

use your intelligence and sharpen your brain. There is nothing wrong with

that. You speak as if it is hard labor to have to judge your authorities. Of

course you have to judge them to know if they are worth following.

 

If I filter like this, then where is a

> place for faith?

 

The faith is that if you are convinced that there are at least some of

Prabhupada's followers you can associate with, and that you then find them.

 

Leaders represent ISKCON in the eyes of ordinary

> devotees. How can there be cooperation, if there is no trust. And how can

> there be trust, if one is to observe the motives of another person, even

> to the point of avoiding him. Now, I'm not saying, that everybody should

> be pure devotees. I feel, it would help, if ISKCON would have things

> defined, and if there would be some system of sanctioning those, who fall

> out of ISKCON's scope.

 

If you don't trust the leaders, then find some other leaders. If you don't

trust the leaders in your country, then don't follow them. It is what you do

after that, it gets interesting. Do you go away in disgust, or do you curb

your false ego and remain in Iskcon. But if you go away in disgust, then

you'll just meet other people who will turn you off. They are everywhere.

It's Kaliyuga, in case you hadn't noticed... even in Iskcon.

 

> I feel the same, but also I know that such understanding is socially not

> very desirable. I think your statement is quite revolutionary. I wonder

> how it will be perceived by those, who propagate love and friendliness

> between all devotees, and preach against any faultfinding and judging. You

> know, that all devotees should be like bees and only see good in

> others....

 

How can you dream that all devotees will be like that? We are in the middle

of the most disturbing of times. The whole world is pure chaos. Why do you

think that everyone in Iskcon should be a pure devotee? We both know how

hard it is to become a pure devotee. You know if every devotee would just

concentrate on his own purification and stop worrying about others' then

Iskcon would be a better place to be in.

 

> There is one argument, that one cam come up with. What if somebody is

> driven away because of devotees inventing feminism or homosexuality?

 

That's not an argument. It's an assumption. How can you be driven away by

feminism or homosexuality? Are you saying that there are an overwhelming

majority in Iskcon who are homosexual or feminist and who are physically

driving you out of Iskcon? How can they drive you out?

 

Or

> because leaders cherish ideas of adjusting Srila Prabhupada's books for

> wider public?

 

So what, if they do that? Then it's your job to try and stop it, or else to

avoid these leaders. If some one campaigns for wrong things in Iskcon then

you have to campaign against it. If you don't, how are you loyal to Srila

Prabhupada? It's such a tiny minority of devotees in Iskcon who thinks we

have to adjust his books to please the public. They have absolutely no

influence. Why are you worried about that?

 

How is this because of lack of faith in Srila Prabhupada?

 

It's lack of faith in Srila Prabhupada's teachings about the power of maya

to be disturbed about the unavoidable facts of life in Iskcon in Kaliyuga.

IN fact all the things you have pointed out about corrupt or misled leaders,

are only to be expected. Take a look at the world around you. Do you see any

honest leaders anywhere? How can you be surprised that people or devotees

are under the influence of maya?

 

> You mean, that if one would really have faith in Srila Prabhupada, he

> would not be disturbed by all such speculations, and would instead fight

> against them? Are you saying, that one needs not accept such things,

> although they are happening inside of ISKCON?

 

That's exactly what I am saying.

 

But then this is a proof,

> that some parts of ISKCON may be questionable.

 

It only proves that there are many devotees in Iskcon, including leaders,

who are in maya. That's all it proves. It doesn't prove there is anything

wrong in Iskcon. It is only right there is so many problems in Iskcon when

so many devotees are in maya.

 

And this goes against your

> definition of ISKCON being defined by Srila Prabhupada's instructions. It

> is not logical too.

 

I doesn't follow, if you just accept that anything against Srila Prabhupda

is not Iskcon.

 

> I suggest, that there are two ISKCONs. One is original, Srila Prabhupada's

> ISKCON, defined by Srila Prabhupada's instructions. And another is

> modern-ISKCON, formed by devotees, and defined by all kinds of social

> interactions between ISKCON devotees.

 

There is only one original Prabhupada's Iskcon, which neither you nor I

know, because we were not here. That Iskcon will of course change in detail

according to the change of times, but the principles will not change.

 

This two ISKCONs are working in

> parallel, and are sometimes very incompatible. And one should learn to

> differentiate between them. One should have strong faith in original

> ISKCON, and be very careful about modern ISKCON. What do you think about

> this?

 

I think there is no such thing as a modern Iskcon that one should be careful

about. I think we should only be careful about associating with those who

are not pure in motive. I know for a fact, that there are so many wonderful

devotees within Iskcon one can associate with, who are pure in motive. So

seek out their association and avoid the ones you don't trust.

 

ys, jdd