What is ISKCON? - Incompatibility with ISKCON

[Guest guest]

Dear Mataji.

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

 

Thank you for your kind letter. I appreciate your mentioning the process of

"watering down" the message. I'm sure with time, it will become more clear

when something is watered down and when not. I would give some examples of

nowadays watering down, I have one real good in connection to dancers, but

am not sure if it is proper. Some devotees tell me, that I better not use

specific examples, because it causes unnecesarry accusations. And others

tell me, that I must give examples, otherwise I'm seen as overgeneralizing.

So I really do not know. I feel safer with not giving specific examples,

in order to avoid personal criticism. Overgeneralizing may not be so bad,

because anybody can spot it from miles anyways, and it doesn't hurt anybody

personally.

 

Regarding saying NO, I always had problem with that. I must learn to say NO,

it will save me from a lot of trouble. Thank you for your kind advice in

this direction. I will certainly try it out in practice. (I hope nobody of

those, who will hear me say no, is reading this.. )

 

Thank you

 

your servant Giri-nayaka das

 

 

>

> I can understand your concerns but there was dancing in Prabhupada's time

> as well as audio visual. ISKCON Cinema was approved by Prabhupada and

> encouraged, there were the Vaikuntha Players who danced and preached

> direct KC at Ratha Yatras and on the streets of New York and Prabhupada

> encouraged them, we had puppet shows, we had slide shows. In some cases

> perhaps more conservative and traditional than what we have today but they

> were there.

>

> It is up to the devotee to make sure he/she does not become enamored with

> the tools, but uses them to serve the Lord. It is up to each devotee to

> protect him/herself from the influence of anarthas such as fame and

> recognition and remain strong to present KC as it is, not to please the

> viewer by watering down the message.

>

> We must become expert in packaging and repackaging the message Prabhupada

> taught us, but NOT changing it.

>

> There is nothing wrong in using the facilities of today for preaching KC

> maintaining the content. There is a difference between watering and

> selecting a subject, the bait. Adding water will only spoil the giver and

> receiver.

>

> It is also okay to say no to proposers of projects. I can not remember how

> many times we have had to say no to a project for various reasons,

> including doubting the motives or capabilities of the proposer. But we

> just say no with no reason or excuse (except maybe being too busy), not

> being Super Soul we don't want to be judgmental, so we just say; sorry,

> no.

>

> Your Servant,

> Nitya-trpta devi dasi

>

> www.krsnavision.com

>

> > I don't think there was any astro or vastu frenzy in Srila Prabhupada's

> > time. No bharat natyam. A no audio/video professionalism high achieving

> > goals. But it is now, at least in my life, since I draw this things on

> > myself like a magnet. The point is, that there was no such trends,

> > although Srila Prabhupada could do it. Were there no beautiful girls in

> > Prabhupada's time? Srila Prabhupada could pick 20 the most beautiful

> > girls in the whole world, and send them to india for first-class

> > bharat-natyam training. Then he could engage them in public programs

> > allower the world. And those girls would be in ecstasy. But he didn't.

> > He could also take rock musicians, and together with dancing girls visit

> > all hippie festivals. It would be a hit, I'm sure. Masses would join!

> > But he didn't. He could instruct devotees to teach business methods, and

> > thus preach. But he didn't. He could use any of those abowe mentioned

> > westernized methods, train many devotees in those methods, and use such

> > high-quality attractive resources for preaching. But he didn't. Why, oh

> > why?

[Guest guest]

On Wed, 21 Dec 2005 22:24 +0100, Giri-nayaka (das) BVS (Ljubljana - SLO) <

Giri-nayaka.BVS (AT) pamho (DOT) net> wrote:

>

> The problem arises, when these methods infiltrate themselves

> in ISKCON, and become so-called very important, almost like part of

> sadhana.

> Or when they are presented as solutions for material problems. Or when one

> is promised heaven on earth with their help. And this is all quite present

> in modern ISKCON, at least from my perspective.

 

[Note: I wrote this yesterday but didn't post it because I was interrupted

by a phone call. I don't know if it adds anything to the conversation at

this point, If not, then please forgive me.]

I haven't seen this to the extent that you describe, but I'm a pretty

provincial person, not a world traveler. I've seen some things intrude more

than I'd like, such as ethnic temples accommodating Hindus to the point of

having a lot of sit-down bhajans written by Mirabai and other non-Gaudiya

poets at Rama-navami festivals, instead of a roaring kirtan, as Srila

Prabhupada would have liked. But nothing as bizarre as you seem to imply.

 

Like for example, I don't think there was any bharat-natyam frenzy in time,

> when Srila Prabhupada was physically present. But now, it is almost

> expected, that every young girl knows how to dance. When my daughter was

> just one ot two years old, a brahmacari bridge preacher approached me, and

> asked me if she will be good dancer. This brahmacari is organizing mataji

> new-age dancing group as part of his bridge preaching. And when he saw my

> daughter, probably he thought, that since she is so cute, she would make a

> nice dancer for his group.

 

 

Well, this just seems a little bizarre. It does seem odd that a brahmachari

would be organizing ladies' dance troupes, unless he has a background like

my godbrother Sudama's.

 

I don't think there was any astro or vastu frenzy in Srila Prabhupada's

> time.

 

 

Vastu is a fairly recent rage outside India anyway. I don't know if any of

us had heard of it 30 years ago. But there was an astrology "rage." Srila

Prabhupada generally tried to keep it down, but he also encouraged some

devotees (several I knew personally) to use it as a sort of bridge to

preaching. So you seem to be mistaken here.

 

A no audio/video professionalism high achieving goals.

 

 

That's wrong, too. Srila Prabhupada encouraged Krishna-kanti to develop his

recording studio. He had a line of Krishna story tapes, and he put out Srila

Prabhupada's lecture and bhajan tapes, even in the early '70s. So this is

certainly something Srila Prabhupada encouraged.

 

He could also take rock musicians, and together with dancing girls visit all

> hippie festivals. It would be a hit, I'm sure. Masses would join! But he

> didn't. He could instruct devotees to

> teach business methods, and thus preach. But he didn't. He could use any

> of

> those abowe mentioned westernized methods, train many devotees in those

> methods, and use such high-quality attractive resources for preaching. But

>

> he didn't. Why, oh why?

 

 

Yes, he did. In the early '70s, he seemed to think the Transcendental Road

Show was a good idea, at least for some time, and he encouraged it for or

quite a while. At a certain point he shut it down because he felt it was

distracting too many of the devotees from their sadhana.

 

Shouldn't somebody be at least worried, like I am?

 

 

It seems you're worried enough for the rest of us.

 

Shouldn't GBC define all those "bridge" inventions, so that we know their

> place in ISKCON?

 

 

Actually, Srila Prabhupada discouraged too much centralization and

bureaucracy. I don't know if you've seen the letter he wrote Karandhar, in

which he wrote,

Otherwise, management, everything, should be done locally by local men.

Accounts must be kept, things must be in order and lawfully done, but that

should be each temple's concern, not yours. Krishna Consciousness Movement

is for training men to be independently thoughtful and competent in all

types of departments of knowledge and action, not for making bureaucracy.

Once there is bureaucracy the whole thing will be spoiled. There must be

always individual striving and work and responsibility, competitive spirit,

not that one shall dominate and distribute benefits to the others and they

do nothing but beg from you and you provide. . . . our leaders shall be

careful not to kill the spirit of enthusiastic service, which is individual

and spontaneous and voluntary. They should try always to generate some

atmosphere of fresh challenge to the devotees, so that they will agree

enthusiastically to rise and meet it. That is the art of management: to draw

out spontaneous loving spirit of sacrificing some energy for Krishna.

 

This are some of my points on "bridge" inventions, which are part of

> advanced level of ISKCON westernization, and which are alienating ISKCON

> from traditional gaudiya-vaisnava society. The more such westernization is

> present within ISKCON, the more alienated will be traditionally oriented

> members. This principle of alienation of taditionalist members is quite

> logical one, and besides it was observed and researched within

> christianity.

> Thus it can be quite safely concluded, that thats the way it works with

> religions in the west, and ISKCON will face the same fate, unless it

> defines

> well its own position.

 

 

Srila Prabhupada's idea was that there should be room in ISKCON for all of

us, not just those of you who want to stick to some romanticized ideal of

Vedic village life, and not just for experimental madmen. Our society, he

wrote, is based on love and trust. Those who want to replace that with

onerous laws and buraucratic strictures may end up with the upper hand with

regard to controlling human and financial resources. They may come up a

little short, though, in the mercy department. Trust the process.

 

Yours in service,

Babhru das

[Guest guest]

On Fri, 23 Dec 2005 07:22 +0100, Tattvavit (das) ACBSP (BBT) <

Tattvavit.ACBSP (AT) pamho (DOT) net> wrote:

>

>

> I know the brahmacari and his devotee-brother and their cultural program

> of

> dances alternating with bhajans, which is so appealing to the public that

> shopping-mall managers invite the devotees to their malls on Saturdays.

> Moreover, this pair of brothers organize outdoor summer festivals like

> that,

> and they have produced interesting slide shows about India, which they

> show

> at libraries throughout their country.

 

 

Well, there I go, arguing from ignorance, as usual.

 

I liked your responses a lot. You brought to this discussion an analysis of

> over-generalizations, and you contributed Srila Prabhupada nectar by way

> of

> explaining his preaching mission,

 

 

Thank you for your kind words. Coming from you, they mean quite a lot to me.

 

 

I saw Giri-nayaka while I was in Slovenia for two weeks last month, and I am

> sure he appreciated your humor as much as I did:

> > > Shouldn't somebody be at least worried, like I am?

> > It seems you're worried enough for the rest of us.

 

 

I can be a bit of a smart mouth sometimes, and my sense of humor, odd as it

often is, doesn't always connect. The truth is that I've never fit in very

well anywhere.

 

The contributions of others and all the good advice given to Giri-nayaka

> appeals to me as being well put and good to hear.

 

 

I think he has gotten much good advice this week and hope that he considers

it seriously. He seems like a thoughtful man, and I think his perspectives

will contribute to much vigorous discussion in the years to come.

 

Yours in service,

Babhru das