Hindustan Times Article

[Guest guest]

PAMHO AGTSP!

 

> But Vice Chancellor Manoj Soni defended the move: "Gita is not a religious

> book at all. It is a book that teaches. It is about spirituality."

> Supporting him, commerce lecturer Pragnesh Shah said: "Lessons from the

> Gita are read in some American universities too. Education is incomplete

> without the Gita."

 

wow!

 

all glories!

 

Hare Krishna.

 

ys, bbd

[Guest guest]

I wish to elaborate my point since my radical views are subject to unjust

criticism by devotees.

There is a vast difference between teaching and preaching in schools and

colleges. SriLa Prabhupata's books are so potent, it will dislodge them from

their intermediate objectives of self relience.

Out of enthusiasms and Europhobia some students take up a life with ISKCON

methodology. It leads to an irreversible loss of carrier. Some of those

lured by the taste of KC, settle with in ISKCON by hook or crook and adapt

to the prevailing socio economic cultural environment.Others at a latter

point of time regret, they have lost their carrier. The basic reason for

regret is, It is painful for such devotees to adapt to practices followed

with in the movement. Donation collection has become the primary objective

of ISKCON devotees. The driving force is commissions paid to the collectors.

Majority of the devotees taking up seva survive their affluent life styles

with donations collected from the public or society with false claims. (I

can substantiate if some one needs justification for this claim.) Most of

such ISKCON devotees land up in a situation where they depend on donations

to manage their personal life style.

 

There is big money power operating with in ISKCON, the standard of simple

living varies with different ethnic groups. There are no volunteers, most of

them are getting paid. They have to depend on donations and naturally they

innovate all sorts of deity or Vaishnava or NGO seva.

 

Living on fund raising campaigns has evolved as a preferred practice in

ISKCON. Most of those who have lost their carriers fall in to this category.

Because most of the drop outs do not have any marketable skills or a

financial back ground to support themselves, they adapt to donations for

personal living.

 

It is evident that most of the Ex-Gurukulies including my son Ram are

regretting for not taking up a carrier at the appropriate age. The survival

of their KC life depends on their economic sustainability. I am sure ISKCON

preachers are mainly liable for this.

 

Majority of ISKCON, Bramacharies in India will run away to perform ISKCON

seva to affluent countries for making quick bucks. Can any one deny this

fact? Why? Because most of them were unskilled and have lost their carrier

and were victims of fanatic KC prechers.

ISKCON has the right to teach BG to students, but do not have the right to

preach. Preaching in the form of advocacy some time leads to unsuspecting

individuals take up to KC life leaving their schools or colleges with false

hopes projected by preachers. This is what I mean as Brain washing.

I have case studies in this regard and it has the potency to evolve in to a

legal issue if pursued to its logical end.

YS

solai About me www.rojaarts.com/vsBio.doc

-

"Hari Sauri (das) ACBSP" <Hari.Sauri.ACBSP (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

"Basu Ghosh (das) ACBSP (Baroda - IN)" <Basu.Ghosh.ACBSP (AT) pamho (DOT) net>;

"Ananda Tirtha (das) JPS (Juhu, Mumbai - IN)" <Ananda.Tirtha.JPS (AT) pamho (DOT) net>;

"KrishnaKirti Das" <krishnakirti >

Cc: "India (Continental Committee) Open (Forum)" <India.Open (AT) pamho (DOT) net>;

"Prabhupada Disciples" <Prabhupada.Disciples (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

Wednesday, December 28, 2005 11:03 AM

Re: Hindustan Times Article

 

 

>> > At this young age a student MAY decide based on the washed brain and

>> > latter MAY repent for it.

>

> You claim to be a devotee but by your statements it seems you have

> no understanding of devotional life. To suggest that a person makes a

> decision to become a devotee due to being brain washed shows you have no

> devotional sense at all.

>

> The attacks on ISKCON's preaching by atheists, disgruntled parents,

> etc. in the 70's promoted this idea of brainwashing, (although the term

> has

> no scientific standing at all) and implied that by some mind control

> techinque young people were being taken advantage of. This is patent

> nonsense.

>

> Young people are being taken advantage of by being educated in an

> atheistic system that induces them from birth to believe that the only

> path

> to happiness is economic development. They are "brainwashed" (if you

> insist

> on that term) into believing that they are economic units whose only

> success

> in life will come if they participate in the country's economic schemes.

> In

> this way they are being misled as to the true goal in life.

>

> Young people require education so that they can make informed

> decisions as to how to live their lives in the most successful way

> possible.

> The best education is Bhagavad Gita (Raja Vidya) and Srimad Bhagavatam.

> The

> best way of life is that dedicated to the development of one's eternal

> relationship with the Lord. ISKCON is presenting that and anyone who has

> some intelligence will take it up -- krsna varnam tvisa krsnam.....yajanti

> hi sumedasa.

>

> On the other hand, those who are alpa-medasa are described in BG:

>

> "Men of small intelligence worship the demigods, and their fruits are

> limited and temporary." BG 7.23

>

> How can we encourage the youth of today to engage in the worship of

> the demigods of economic development? And if a young man or woman responds

> to the logic and reason of the BG and SB why should they be considered

> brain-washed? In India, as in most other countries, a person is considered

> an adult at age 18. They can drive, vote and do many other legal

> transactions as a responsible adult. Yet by your logic they are not

> competent to make a decision that will bring about their ultimate and

> permanent good.

>

> You say you have been a devotee for ten years but you have

> apparently learned nothing, not even the most fundamental and simple

> truths.

>

> Your humble servant,

> Hari-sauri dasa

>

[Guest guest]

PAMHO AGTSP!

 

> They were regretting for their lost carrier at a latter point of time. In

> my humble opinion we should not disturb the students in their campus.

 

we shouldn't "disturb" them if we want them to continue rotting in the

material world thinking that their study, degree, high position in society

and so on will help them at the time of death.

 

maybe we should also request all doctors not to "disturb" patients by giving

them medicine, injections and disturbing suggestions they don't like to

accept.. :-)

 

let us remember / renew our memory as to what we are supposed to do as Srila

Prabhupada's followers.

 

but yes, we should be careful dealing with it. vadodara (baroda) is a

sensitive place and communal riots are not new there.

 

Hare Krishna.

 

ys, bbd

[Guest guest]

Disturb, in the sense, dislodging students from their intermediate objective

or aim of life. Material Education is a must at the appropriate age, may be

students can learn Spiritual and material together. ISKCON preachers should

never advice students that we are sprit souls, spiritual education is more

important and urgent than material education etc.,,a trap leading to make

the youngsters drop out from material studies and switch over to full time

KC practice. This advice is ok, as far as general society is concerned. But

when rendered to students irrespective of age + or - 18, some of them with

poor financial back ground are sure to fall in to this trap with out knowing

its depth, latter some of those fallen in to this trap regret to live on

charity. When they realize this, it becomes an irreversible loss of their

carrier and livelihood. Where as, drop outs from rich families or those with

money making skills do not repent. Students should be always advised to

complete their education in all sincerity with high distinction. They can

follow KC and excel in their material studies also, this is what is

generally practiced in ISKCON families, as long as the students obey their

parents advice. Material education is like an insurance cover to practice

fail proof KC.

But in reality, preachers go to the extent of brain washing these students,

+ or - 18 age, in schools and colleges, motivating them to make wrong moves

are liable for the loss suffered by that particular individual. When the

preacher is backed by a society, the society is liable to compensate for the

loss + mental agony of all those (who were under 18 years )affected by this

criminal advice!! In my humble opinion this logic creates a very large

financial risk for ISKCON, like the Gurukuli issue in US.

Also I am sure it will lead to religious politics with in the college

campus. If abnormally looking ISKCON preachers move among the students, then

Religious fanaticism and terrorism will get hold of students lives

especially in India.

YS

solai

-

"Bhadra Balaram (das) JPS (Mayapur - IN)"

<Bhadra.Balaram.JPS (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

"Ananda Tirtha (das) JPS (Juhu, Mumbai - IN)"

<Ananda.Tirtha.JPS (AT) pamho (DOT) net>; "KrishnaKirti Das" <krishnakirti >

Cc: "India (Continental Committee) Open (Forum)" <India.Open (AT) pamho (DOT) net>;

"ISKCON India (news & discussion)" <ISKCON.India (AT) pamho (DOT) net>; "Tattvavit

(das) ACBSP (BBT)" <Tattvavit.ACBSP (AT) pamho (DOT) net>; "Vijaya (das) HDG (USA)"

<Vijaya.HDG (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

Thursday, December 29, 2005 3:00 PM

Re: Hindustan Times Article

 

 

> PAMHO AGTSP!

>

>> They were regretting for their lost carrier at a latter point of time. In

>> my humble opinion we should not disturb the students in their campus.

>

> we shouldn't "disturb" them if we want them to continue rotting in the

> material world thinking that their study, degree, high position in society

> and so on will help them at the time of death.

>

> maybe we should also request all doctors not to "disturb" patients by

> giving

> them medicine, injections and disturbing suggestions they don't like to

> accept.. :-)

>

> let us remember / renew our memory as to what we are supposed to do as

> Srila

> Prabhupada's followers.

>

> but yes, we should be careful dealing with it. vadodara (baroda) is a

> sensitive place and communal riots are not new there.

>

> Hare Krishna.

>

> ys, bbd

>

[Guest guest]

>From Srila Prabhupada's "Sri Ishopanishad" - his translation & purport.

 

Note how he condemns "economic development" as the central goal of life -

especially in the final paragraph!

 

Mantra Three

 

TEXT

asury€ n€ma te lok€

andhena tamas€vt€ƒ

t€ˆs te prety€bhigacchanti

ye ke c€tma-hano jan€ƒ

 

SYNONYMS

asury€ƒ—meant for the asuras; n€ma—famous by the name; te—those;

lok€ƒ—planets; andhena—by ignorance; tamas€—by darkness; €vt€ƒ—covered;

t€n—those planets; te—they; pretya—after death; abhigacchanti—enter into;

ye—anyone; ke—everyone; ca—and; €tma—hanaƒ—the killers of the soul;

jan€ƒ—persons.

 

TRANSLATION

The killer of the soul, whoever he may be, must enter into the planets known

as the worlds of the faithless, full of darkness and ignorance.

 

PURPORT

Human life is distinguished from animal life due to its heavy

responsibilities. Those who are cognizant of these responsibilities and who

work in that spirit are called suras (godly persons), and those who are

neglectful of these responsibilities or who have no information of them are

called asuras (demons). Throughout the universe there are only these two

types of human being. In the ¬g Veda it is stated that the suras always aim

at the lotus feet of the Supreme Lord ViŠu and act accordingly. Their ways

are as illuminated as the path of the sun.

Intelligent human beings must always remember that the soul obtains a human

form after an evolution of many millions of years in the cycle of

transmigration. The material world is sometimes compared to an ocean, and

the human body is compared to a solid boat designed especially to cross this

ocean. The Vedic scriptures and the €c€ryas, or saintly teachers, are

compared to expert boatmen, and the facilities of the human body are

compared to favorable breezes that help the boat ply smoothly to its desired

destination. If, with all these facilities, a human being does not fully

utilize his life for self-realization, he must be considered €tma-h€, a

killer of the soul. ®r… Ÿopaniad warns in clear terms that the killer of

the soul is destined to enter into the darkest region of ignorance to suffer

perpetually.

There are swine, dogs, camels, asses, etc., whose economic necessities are

just as important to them as ours are to us, but the economic problems of

these animals are solved only under nasty and unpleasant conditions. The

human being is given all facilities for a comfortable life by the laws of

nature because the human form of life is more important and valuable than

animal life. Why is man given a better life than that of the swine and other

animals? Why is a highly placed government servant given better facilities

than those of an ordinary clerk? The answer is that a highly placed officer

has to discharge duties of a higher nature. Similarly, the duties human

beings have to perform are higher than those of animals, who are always

engaged in simply feeding their hungry stomachs. Yet the modern soul-killing

civilization has only increased the problems of the hungry stomach. When we

approach a polished animal in the form of a modern civilized man and ask him

to take interest in self-realization, he will say that he simply wants to

work to satisfy his stomach and that there is no need of self-realization

for a hungry man. The laws of nature are so cruel, however, that despite his

denunciation of the need for self-realization and his eagerness to work hard

to fill his stomach, he is always threatened by unemployment.

We are given this human form of life not to work hard like asses, swine and

dogs but to attain the highest perfection of life. If we do not care for

self-realization, the laws of nature force us to work very hard, even though

we may not want to do so. Human beings in this age have been forced to work

hard like the asses and bullocks that pull carts. Some of the regions where

the asuras are sent to work are revealed in this verse of ®r… Ÿopaniad. If

a man fails to discharge his duties as a human being, he is forced to

transmigrate to the asurya planets and take birth in degraded species of

life to work hard in ignorance and darkness.

In the Bhagavad-g…t€ (6.41-43) it is stated that a man who enters upon the

path of self-realization but does not complete the process, despite having

sincerely tried to realize his relationship with God, is given a chance to

appear in a family of uci or r…mat. The word uci indicates a spiritually

advanced br€hmaŠa, and r…mat indicates a vaiya, a member of the mercantile

community. So the person who fails to achieve self-realization is given a

better chance in his next life due to his sincere efforts in this life. If

even a fallen candidate is given a chance to take birth in a respectable and

noble family, one can hardly imagine the status of one who has achieved

success. By simply attempting to realize God, one is guaranteed birth in a

wealthy or aristocratic family. But those who do not even make an attempt,

who want to be covered by illusion, who are too materialistic and too

attached to material enjoyment, must enter into the darkest regions of hell,

as confirmed throughout the Vedic literature. Such materialistic asuras

sometimes make a show of religion, but their ultimate aim is material

prosperity. The Bhagavad-g…t€ (16.17-18) rebukes such men by calling them

€tma-sambh€vita, meaning that they are considered great only on the strength

of deception and are empowered by the votes of the ignorant and by their own

material wealth. Such asuras, devoid of self-realization and knowledge of

…€v€sya, the Lord's universal proprietorship, are certain to enter into the

darkest regions.

The conclusion is that as human beings we are meant not simply for solving

economic problems on a tottering platform but for solving all the problems

of the material life into which we have been placed by the laws of nature.

[VTE]

[Guest guest]

>From Srila Prabhupada's purport to Mantra 10 of Ishopanishad:

 

"In the modern society, even a boy thinks himself self-sufficient and pays

no respect to elderly men. Due to the wrong type of education being imparted

in our universities, boys all over the world are giving their elders

headaches. Thus ®r… Ÿopaniad very strongly warns that the culture of

nescience is different from that of knowledge. The universities are, so to

speak, centers of nescience only; consequently scientists are busy

discovering lethal weapons to wipe out the existence of other countries.

University students today are not given instructions in the regulative

principles of brahmacarya (celibate student life), nor do they have any

faith in any scriptural injunctions. Religious principles are taught for the

sake of name and fame only and not for the sake of practical action. Thus

there is animosity not only in social and political fields but in the field

of religion as well."

[Guest guest]

ISKCON

> preachers should never advice students that we are sprit souls, spiritual

> education is more important and urgent than material education etc.,,

 

You surely lost me on this one. That preachers should not advice students

that they are spirit souls, but rather are flesh and bones. It's quite a

shame you call yourself an Indian, which pride herself as the authority of

spiritual culture. Because of your cultvation of "ajara vidya" materialistic

knowledge, you promptply concluded that your ignorance should be embraced by

all. You claimed to have spent ten years in ISKCON, but in actuality, you

spent ten years in ISKCON as an agent of kali, not as a sincere cultivator

of spiritual culture.

 

You need to get a life, I mean a spiritual life.

 

your well-wisher,

 

Isvara dasa.

[Guest guest]

> I wish to elaborate my point since my radical views are subject to unjust

> criticism by devotees.

 

Actually the criticisms are very just and completely to the point.

 

I accept that in some circumstances devotees are more materially

motivated than spiritual and thus they hope to make a "cut" from the

proceeds of their preaching. However, even if there is such a motivation,

they are still being engaged in Krsna service, which is far better than

being engaged in ordinary material activity. They get eternal spiritual

benefit but as even the Christians recognise "what benefits a man if he

gains the whole world but loses his eternal soul?"

 

> ISKCON has the right to teach BG to students, but do not have the right to

> preach.

 

According to whom? What is the purpose of teaching and the purpose

of preaching? They are one and the same --- sarva dharman parityaja mam ekam

saranam braja. As Krsna induced Arjuna to surrender everything to Him,

similarly the teachings of BG are meant for inducing a conditioned soul to

fully surrender. If a person makes the attempt to fully surrender, even if

he is unsuccessful and later retreats from the path, which is what your

concern seems to be, still he has not lost anything. Rather he has gained so

much that it is incalculable by any material estimation.

 

On the other hand, if he declines to make the attempt to surrender,

and that choice is always there (yatecchasi tatha kuru), and takes up a

material career, what is his gain? One may argue that once having gained a

good job he can then focus on devotional life without having to look to

ISKCON for material support. But what if he dies in the meantime?

 

And we all know that the pursuit of material opulence is endless and

all-consuming. First you want a "good job" so you work like an ass day and

night to get the qualifications so that you can door to door begging from

the employers, "Please sir, I have a Phd. kindly give me a job." And then

you work like an ass day and night to keep your job. And then you get

married and work like an ass for the whole life to maintain the family. In

this way, you may never get to the point of taking up spiritual life

seriously, thinking that "In my old age I will take it up when my material

responsibilities are done." But in old age the attachements and

entanglements of material affairs are so strong and are so deeply impressed

on the psyche that one cannot detach one's self from them. And then you die

and then you have to start a new material career--in another body, another

place, another family. And the caring mother and father of our last lives

who carefully ensured that we got a good job, family, house, car, etc. etc.

are forgotten, covered by the mist of passing time.

 

How many lifetimes do you want to keep up this nonsense of pursuing

a material career? If someone is fortunate enough while they are young to

understand the urgency of taking up this Krsna consciousness process they

should be fully encouraged. There is no loss and the gain is very great.

Even the most humble devotee in an ISKCON temple is far more exalted and

fortunate than Bill Gates, who has more than anyone could possibly wish for

materially, but has not the slightest understanding of God and his

relationship with Him. As Srila Bhaktisiddanta said, there is no shortage of

anything in this world, except Krsna consciousness.

 

> Preaching in the form of advocacy some time leads to unsuspecting

> individuals take up to KC life leaving their schools or colleges with

> false hopes projected by preachers. This is what I mean as Brain washing.

> I have case studies in this regard and it has the potency to evolve in to

> a legal issue if pursued to its logical end.

 

You mean to its illogical end. The threat to attack the preachers of

the message of SB and BG is the last resort of rascals. Rather than support

and encourage the efforts of the devotees, the materialists see them as a

threat to their lifestyles. Although a person's miserable material life can

only be ended by contact with devotees, we have the foolishness to think

that the devotees are actually a threat to civilisation and we think they

should be curbed by legal means.

 

Of course we had to fight this nonsense in the 1970's in America and

other places but Srila Prabhupada pushed ahead with his agenda regardless.

His intention to redirect the entire human society from material pursuits to

spiritual ones. He especially encouraged the residents of Bharat-varsa to

take up this para-upakara, acting on the instructions of Sri Caitanya

Mahaprabhu himself. It is very unfortunate that now in Bharat varsa, punya

bhumi, we have to hear such words from one of its inhabitants. It is very

sad that someone who claims to be a devotee should present these arguments

as a serious discussion point in an assembly of Vaisnavas.

 

Such an entirely abysmal lack of self-realization might be expected

from the western side, the land of the mlecchas and yavanas, who are

bewildered by the material energy and are thoroughly compromised. But this

is now India's great misfortune, that its inhabitants are madly pursuing the

western lack of culture; and threats to take the preachers of the message of

BG to court are a natural consequence of this.

 

Your humble servant,

Hari-sauri dasa