Guest guest Posted January 10, 2006 Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 Pranava wrote: > Dear devotees, > > I would encourage, in general, a sense of moderation in speech in > Vaishnava forums. I agree. We should moderate Vaishnava forums, or at least ISKCON's forums in such a way, that the less intelligent get no chance to advocate principles that are inferior to the highest standard of spiritual emancipation ISKCON upholds. ISKCON propagates the highest standard of conscious development available on the planet in the form of Srila Prabhupada teachings. In his Bhagavad Gita is found the most advanced and sophisticated psychological understanding available to souls in this age. To insist that lesser systems of conscious and mental development be given a voice on ISKCON forums should certainly be a cause for moderation. The idea that ISKCON is a democratic movement is an atheistic idea. Atheistic elements, no matter how innocent and reasonable they may appear, should not be given a voice on Vaishnava forums. It isn't Vaishnava etiquette to come on to a devotee conference and advocate inferior methods of mental balance, and then complain when this is pointed out. Such propaganda is not allowed anywhere amongst Vaishnavas. Do you for one moment think that you can go to, say, Chaitanya Math or any other bone fide Gaudiya Math and conduct a Dr. Phil seminar like Dhira Govindas? I think the answer is clear. Or if we are confused we can ask ourselves, what would Prabhupada have done? What would he have said about it? Try and ask Srila Prabhupada in your heart, or confer with his books, to see if it is ok to attend a seminar devised by materialists to help better cope with the mind. Is it not clear what he would say? Atheism in ISKCON is defined by a lack of faith in Srila Prabhupada. Anyone who lacks faith in Prabhupada's standard program for mental and conscious development is an atheist in ISKCON. I am sure you are not an atheist, Pranava, but you are misled if you think that Dhira Govinda's program is geared towards devotees needs, as you claim. How can a material program be geared towards devotees' needs? The term is an oxymoron. I can tell you with absolute certainty that there has never been a person anywhere who became a better Vaishnava by attending DG's program. Maybe he became better off materially, that's another thing. That doesn't mean you became a better devotee. To say that sannyasis and leaders in ISKCON have attended DG's seminar doesn't mean they have become better devotees by it. The most the benefit you can get from DG's program is learning how to feel better about your own maya, and while this may be good for some who don't have sufficient intelligence and faith to cope with the guilt of being fallen and wretched, it is certainly absolutely useless to devotees. Devotees try to become humble and understand how fallen they are. They don't try to gloss maya over with Dr. Phil techniques, and think they have attained success if they can get rid of guilt or by living a nice material life without any mental or physical disturbances. How are you going to get rid of material disturbances, anyway, without following Srila Prabhupada's program? And how can you claim you are following Prabhupada's program if you seek psychological aid from the less intelligent? > It is easy to forget that Dhira Govinda has done tremenduous service for > the Child Protection office, and that many ISKCON devotees (including > myself) and sannyasis have taken his courses. His philosophical problems > (I do disagree with his conclusions) with the GBC should not obscure the > weight of his service, nor his loyalty to Srila Prabhupada and the > movement. We may do well by being prudent and considerate in talking of > any devotee, while discussing openly his or her ideas on the basis of > their own merit. If anyone has a philosophical problem with the GBC it means they are off. It's as simple as that. It is irrelevant how much service they have done in the past. It is not that service in ISKCON earns you the right to propagate less intelligent material solutions to material problems. ISKCON was conceived as Prabhupada's and the acharyas' spiritual solutions to all problems. It's not a democratic movement where younger, inexperienced. less advanced devotees like DG get to disagree on the philosophy with their elders and then on top of that demand they be given an equal voice on Vaishnava forums to advertise their business. Modern ideas in the form of neutralism, liberalism, americanism, globalism, sensitivitism, sentimentalism, or whatever, in which everyone should be given a vote and a voice and have his opinion heard is simply nothing less than pure atheistic propaganda. That idea has no foundation in the Vedic system. Srila Prabhupada called it demoncrazy. The Vedic system is 100 percent autocratic, and anyone who is not willing to subject himself to the appointed authority does not belong in that system. > But, to hit the bottom line: > > Are Dhira Govinda's courses good for just anyone? > No. > > Are they a substitute in any way for our sadhana and engagement in the > preaching movement? > No. > > Can they be helpful in anyway? > Yes, I think so, for SOME people, especially for those in the grihastha > ashrama and for those, like me, who have grown up in the disfunctional > social environments of the Western regions. > > The courses of Dhira Govinda use a number of achievements within > humanistic psychology adjusted and framed specifically for devotees and > their needs. I don't endourse all aspects of humanistic psychology and > similar "you can be what you want to be" psychology, especially when it > tends to boost, as it sometimes does, a deep sense of ego-centrism. My > impression, however, was that the courses are well-balanced and service > centred, and do not promote directly a humanistic worldview. I also > appreciated the attempts done to help devotees in their, at times, rather > challanging development, especially in cases where severe damage had been > made within the institutional frame of ISKCON. In this sense, I think, the > courses were helpful, although not for everyone to the same degree. It all sounds very reasonable and innocent but the fact remains that DG is unqualified to teach or guide ISKCON devotees, Anyone who openly rebels against the GBC and his guru is naturally unqualified to teach or guide other devotees, who are trying to be faithful to the institution. That should be a fairly easy thing to understand. It is such a clear cut self-evident case. It is not a matter of being in a cult or being a brain dead follower of the GBC: it is a matter of honoring Srila Prabhupada's teachings and the system he set up. If anyone has complaints and grievances there are proper channels to present them in. That is standard Vaishnava etiquette. > I am waiting to see the emergence of a full fledged Vedic psychology > education, that can provide all needed tools for counseling, marriage > couching, and personal development, based entirely on our shastric > tradition and practice. We should really try and look much deeper into our > tradition than we presently do, in my opinion. We need research institutes > for that purposes, which we presently don't have. When that will happen > and something better comes up, devotees will naturally take it. We don't need psychological counseling devised by atheists and materialists. We need to follow Srila Prabhupada's program. Prabhupada made ISKCON so that devotees could cooperate together to make a final solution to all problems. What you are advocating is to solve material problems with material solutions, which will never work. Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur Maharaja said that the only lack in this world was the lack of Krishna consciousness. Material solutions are for the less intelligent, and while nobody in ISKCON will deride people for seeking such solutions, we can certainly demand that they not be preached publicly on Vaishnava forums. Let DG seek his customers elsewhere. One thing we should not forget in this connection is that in these disturbed times psychological counseling and self help is a huge, mega business all over the world. Just ask Dr. Phil and Oprah and the host of other empowerment gurus that operate with gigantic profits in the rich field of disturbed Kali-yuga people. One can immediately become free from all problems by surrendering to the advanced psychological teachings of Krishna in the Bhagavad Gita, but in stead people go to the Dr. Phils of the world. Again, nobody can stop people from doing that, but surely you cannot find it unreasonable to discourage such methods amongst devotees who want to become purified from their anarthas - because the soft sciences DO NOT purify one of one's anarthas, and that is our biggest obstacle in spiritual life. > The courses are open for a large variety of people, and those who want to > associate exclusively with ISKCON devotees in good standing should avoid > the courses, as it may become unconfortable to mix with people from > different backgrounds, possessing diverse philosophical orientations > within the large Gaudiya family. Others who live in the world and > associate professionally with all kinds of people may find them > refreshing, perhaps even for the opposite reason, since the set up is also > highly devotional. > > The choice is yours. It is the choice between Srila Prabhupada or Dr. Phil. I agree that DG may be good for some, but he is no good to those who want to get out of the material world and go back home back to Godhead. And you don't have to take my word for it. You can ask Srila Prabhupada. Or you can ask any other Vaishanava authority for that matter. They will all tell you the same thing. ISKCON is not meant to help people feel good about material life. Srila Prabhupada's teachings are meant to instill in us the urgency of going back to Krishna. Anything less than that is unwelcome. Srila Prabhupada told his disciples that there were atheists in ISKCON dressed up as Vaishnavas and he told us to not give them any place. You can recognize them by their lack of faith, or will, or determination, or enthusiasm, or even reluctant willingness to surrender to Prabhupada's program of pure devotional service. A devotee is a person who sticks to the process no matter what, and an atheist is someone who for some reason or another thinks it doesn't work, and that he needs something else, something material to help him progress in life, and then proceeds to find faults with devotees. Even if you just perform devotional service for material gains, but keep a humble profile, you are a devotee, but if you make public propaganda and politics against the gurus and GBC (who are Srila Prabhupada's appointed authorities) like DG does, that makes you immediately an atheist. Finally I just want to say that it is the duty of ISKCON's elders to protect the young and inexperienced devotees and give them guidance so they can protect themselves against atheistic onslaughts. The atheistic onslaughts against ISKCON come first and foremost from IRM, the ritviks and the poison advocates. Both ritvikism and the poison rumors were started by the same person, Nityananda, who is known to have always hated his godbrothers in the GBC with a vengeance. I don't know if DG realizes that by him publicly denouncing the disciplic succession, he is preaching atheism, or if he is also misled, but whatever the case, it disqualifies him from acting as a guide for Vaishnavas. That's really the bottom line. I am sure I have offended a lot of persons with this little tirade but I really don't care. It is about time we call a spade a spade. I am getting sick and tired of people who think that ISKCON is just an other humanitarian organization meant to help us cope nicely with material life. Srila Prabhupada said clearly that if we followed his program everything would automatically follow - we would be fulfilled and satisfied. If someone does not feel fulfilled or satisfied in devotional life it is because he doesn't follow the devotional program. Any serious devotee has the experience that to the degree he surrenders to and engages in Krishna's service to that degree he is happy, and to the degree he is in maya to that degree he is miserable. Anyone who doesn't have that experience is not a serious devotee. A serious devotee will understand that the problems of life are just something we have to live with as long as we have not crossed over anartha nivritti. And the only way to cross over anartha nivrtti is by following Srila Prabhupada's system. No matter how dedicatedly you practice modern Dr. Phil and Oprah techniques it will not help you get rid of your false ego steer you over the vast ocean of anartha nivritti. Nobody is being condemned for not being able to surrender fully, as long as one honestly tries to improve himself in the association of other aspiring Vaishnavas, but it is certainly not reasonable, nay, it's completely out of order and totally against Vaishnava etiquette to demand that the material solutions of the despondent and the self-motivated be given an equal voice with those who strive for the highest spiritual solutions. ISKCON stands for the highest spiritual standards, so therefore it is not strange, or out of order, or insensitive, or fanatical, or fundamentalistic, or cultish or whatever, if its members become disturbed when elements within their movement demand the right to propagate the less intelligent material solutions advocated by atheists. Anyone who cannot appreciate this is not a reasonable person. It's not something we have to debate over or argue about. It is just a simple fact known to those who aspire to go back to Krishna in this life. Your servant Jahnudvip das Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2006 Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 On Mon, 9 Jan 2006 19:24 -0500, Jahnu (Dvipa das JPS) (Mayapur - IN) < Jahnu (AT) pamho (DOT) net> wrote: > > I can tell you with absolute certainty that there has never been a person > anywhere who became a > better Vaishnava by attending DG's program. Maybe he became better off > materially, that's another thing. That doesn't mean you became a better > devotee. To say that sannyasis and leaders in ISKCON have attended DG's > seminar doesn't mean they have become better devotees by it. With absolute certainty? On what basis do you make all these assertions? Have you ever attended his seminars? I haven't, so I don't feel qualified to comment on them at all. Have you examined every single devotee who has taken his seminars--before and after? I haven't, so I'll stay silent on that, too. And how is it that so many granddisciples can post to the Prabhupada Disciples conference, when I can't post to their conference? Just wondering. Yours in service, Babhru das Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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