Guru issue - DG's PL ritvik / mayavada?

[Guest guest]

>

> Henry Dom/Hari-dhama dasa. Ph.D.

> Hindu-Vaisnava Chaplain/Bereavement + Spiritual Care Counsellor

 

Oh, dear...

[Guest guest]

Dear Maharajas, Prabhus and Matajis

 

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

 

Please forgive me for imposing on your valuable time.

 

Thank you for Ajamila prabhu's posting on the guru issue. It makes for

interesting reading. So does Dhira Govinda prabhu's "The Prominent Link".

 

Recently, and in good faith, I shared on some com conferences my personal

and profound experiences having attended two Satvatove seminars. I also

included in the posting details of the seminar to be held in Switzerland.

 

This posting solicted some welcomed comments, with Malati mataji (GBC), from

a position of neutrality on the issue, asking me to share my experience with

her.

 

However, I am saddened that a mere invitation solicited e-mails from Braja

Sevaki mataji TKG which included the following shocking phrases:

 

> Shut the fuck up, you clown....

> You're demented.

> Idiot...

> > > God, you're stupid

> > > You have no intelligence.

> > > Who the hell do you think you are?

> > > Shut up, go home, and do something worthwhile, you fool.

> > > You deluded fool

> > > Bite me jerk

 

I also posted a message that I prefer not to receive any further e-mails

regarding Dhira Govinda pr, Satvatove or The Prominent Link. In it I stated

that I am a loyal supporter of Srila Prabhupada, his ISKCON, Mukunda

Maharaja (my spiritual master), Dhira Govinda pr, Satvatove and the

Vaisnavas.

 

Please note that my loyal support for Dhira Govinda pr. is as a friend,

fellow Vaisnava, and for his seminars. I would rather be taught by him in

these seminars than from someone who does not embibe our vows, principles

and values.

 

I also do not necessarily take philosophical direction from him. For that I

am content with my relationship with Mukunda Goswami.

 

Yours in the service of Srila Prabhupada.

 

Hari-dhama dasa.

 

 

* SPIRIT MATTERS *

 

Henry Dom/Hari-dhama dasa. Ph.D.

Hindu-Vaisnava Chaplain/Bereavement + Spiritual Care Counsellor Sarangati

Counselling + Consultancy Services, Co. Reg. 5457043

4 The Firs, 44 Lawrie Park Gardens, Sydenham, SE26 6XN

Henry (AT) dom108 (DOT) fslife.co.uk tel:

mobile: 020-86597095

07905-279179

[Guest guest]

Whoever started this thread added receivers indiscriminately enough to

make it qualify as spam.

 

Please subtract "(Mayapur Festival) IC (Invitation Committee)" from

all further comments.

 

Thank you.

 

--ys, js

[Guest guest]

Dear Respected Vaisnavas

 

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. Please

forgive me for imposing upon your time.

 

At the end of Ajamila prabhu's recent posting he is reminded, "...that Dhira

Govinda pr.has also taken up the same false poison allegation banner."

 

"Taken up" as used in this controversial context is somewhat vague and

ambigious, if not misplaced. If Ajamila pr. means that Dhira Govinda pr.

"supports"/"agrees"/"endorses"/"validates"/"promotes", etc. the poison idea

then I suggest he re-thinks his allegation. It may be useful to directly ask

Dhira Govinda pr. exactly what his stance on this issue is. And if Ajamila

prabhu did that, as I did, then I suggest that he is either intentionally or

not misrepresenting or misinterpreting Dhira Govinda pr.'s position. It

speaks for itself if Ajamila pr. did not ask Dhira Govinda pr. directly.

 

"Taken up" in the common sense of the word does not necessarily mean that

Dhira Govinda pr. "supports"/"agrees"/"endorses"/"validates"/"promotes" the

idea either.

 

That he has an opinion is his right.

 

Your servant.

 

Hari-dhama dasa.

[Guest guest]

================

At the end of Ajamila prabhu's recent posting he is reminded, "...that Dhira

Govinda pr.has also taken up the same false poison allegation banner."

Hari-dhama dasa.

================

 

I was informed that the above was the case, I hope it isn't. My questions

have been passed on to Dhira Govinda Prabhu, so lets hope he responds in due

course.

 

It has to be noted that when someone embraces ritvik they usually go for the

poison allegation too. Perhaps because the self-declared long term anti-GBC

devotee who instigated ritvik also started the false poison allegation.

 

DG's position on guru tattva is definitely ritvik and mayavada beneath an

array of Prabhupäda Prominence covering. So far he's silent about explaining

EXACTLY his position on that, and he may well just come back with a modified

version of Prabhupäda Prominence and with more bulk.

 

Its amazing how so many devotees have read DG's PL but haven't seen the

ritvik or mayavada. DG has a way of arousing people's sentiments with his

unique combination of psychotherapy, essential life skills, and linking all

that with Prabhupada prominence and devotional activities. But imbedded

beneath it all is his ritvik conception of guru tattva with a coating of

mayavada which most devotees don't see or don't care if they see.

 

Life enhancing skills can be used to create favourbale situations for

devotionl service just as many other things are used. But if such seminars

are used to peddle ritvik and mayavada then it is not only useless but very

dangerous philosphically.

 

ys

 

ad

 

N.B. Respected receivers requesting removal were subtracted.

[Guest guest]

It's now perfectly apparent from his writings and responses that Ajamila

prabhu's motivated allegations against Dhira Govinda prabhu is purely based

upon:

 

* hearsay;

* not waiting for a direct reply from Dhira Govinda pr;

* not attending any of the Satvatove seminars to seek clarification first

hand;

* relying on second and third hand reports;

* not seeking information from the right sources.

 

His methodology is regrettable and sub-standard to any serious issue which

may need some intellectual capacity and objective analysis: ">I was informed

that the above was the case, I hope it isn't."

 

Hence, I am not surprised that Dhira Govinda pr. has not yet responded to

Ajamila pr.

 

> It has to be noted that when someone embraces ritvik they usually go for

> the poison allegation too.

 

"Usually" does not mean "necessarily" or "always" - Ajamila pr. makes

mischief in his poor selection of words.

 

However, his most self-defeating comment is:

 

> But if such seminars

> are used to peddle ritvik and mayavada then it is not only useless but

> very dangerous philosphically.

 

I have attended both seminars and will continue to promote it globally.

Ajamila pr. did not attend. There was absolutely no smack of any peddling of

ritvik and/or mayavada at these seminars.

 

Note: I have now removed myself from this tree of recipients because of the

poor quality of Ajamila prabhu's arguments.

 

> ================

> At the end of Ajamila prabhu's recent posting he is reminded, "...that

> Dhira Govinda pr.has also taken up the same false poison allegation

> banner." Hari-dhama dasa.

> ================

>

> I was informed that the above was the case, I hope it isn't. My questions

> have been passed on to Dhira Govinda Prabhu, so lets hope he responds in

> due course.

>

> It has to be noted that when someone embraces ritvik they usually go for

> the poison allegation too. Perhaps because the self-declared long term

> anti-GBC devotee who instigated ritvik also started the false poison

> allegation.

>

> DG's position on guru tattva is definitely ritvik and mayavada beneath an

> array of Prabhupäda Prominence covering. So far he's silent about

> explaining EXACTLY his position on that, and he may well just come back

> with a modified version of Prabhupäda Prominence and with more bulk.

>

> Its amazing how so many devotees have read DG's PL but haven't seen the

> ritvik or mayavada. DG has a way of arousing people's sentiments with his

> unique combination of psychotherapy, essential life skills, and linking

> all that with Prabhupada prominence and devotional activities. But

> imbedded beneath it all is his ritvik conception of guru tattva with a

> coating of mayavada which most devotees don't see or don't care if they

> see.

>

> Life enhancing skills can be used to create favourbale situations for

> devotionl service just as many other things are used. But if such seminars

> are used to peddle ritvik and mayavada then it is not only useless but

> very dangerous philosphically.

>

> ys

>

> ad

>

> N.B. Respected receivers requesting removal were subtracted.

[Guest guest]

========================

>It's now perfectly apparent from his writings and responses that Ajamila

>prabhu's motivated allegations against Dhira Govinda prabhu is purely based

>upon:

>

>* hearsay;

>* not waiting for a direct reply from Dhira Govinda pr;

>* not attending any of the Satvatove seminars to seek clarification first

>hand;

>* relying on second and third hand reports;

>* not seeking information from the right sources.

>

>His methodology is regrettable and sub-standard to any serious issue which

>may need some intellectual capacity and objective analysis:

>"I was informed that the above was the case, I hope it isn't."

>

>Hence, I am not surprised that Dhira Govinda pr. has not yet responded to

>Ajamila pr.

=======================

 

I have alleged that Dhira Govinda's position on guru-tattva is one of ritvik

and mayavada glossed over with a strong emphasis on Prabhupada Prominence. I

made my case on a 'philosophical basis', nothing personal at all, so let DG

respond.

 

Hari-dhama seems unaware that this is a philosophical discussion and he is

yet to make any real philosophical statement in DG’s defence. All HD's

responses thus far have been emotional. His summary response to my

philosophical points were the following sentiments:

 

"I continue to follow my instincts, intuition, spirit, independence, and

judgement".

 

What philosophy is that?

 

This is a philosophical discussion, nothing else. When I continue raising

perfectly valid philosophical points HD blocks my texts, and then replies

indirectly with more emotional outbursts ignoring my philosophical concerns.

HD has not made one philosophical statement thus far, and yet this is a

philosophical discussion.

 

Life enhancing skills can be used to create favourable situations for

devotional service, just as many other things are used. But if such seminars

are presented by a devotee who peddles ritvik and mayavada on the side then

that will filter through to the devotees attending - to some degree -

because DG combines his course with Krishna consciousness. One devotee

reported PL was made available to him after one of DG’s seminars.

 

I don't need to attend DG's Satvatove course to get a better understanding

of his writings on guru tattva. I read DG's PL thoroughly, voiced my

philosophical concerns, and that is sufficient.

 

Hari-dhama is a keen promoter of DG's Satvatove, but he's unable to explain

clearly or philosophically DG’s position on guru tattva which is seen by

many as dangerously inaccurate.

 

The great cause for concern here is the negative influence of DG's ritvik

and mayavada filtering through his seminars to the devotees and becoming

widespread in our Society.

 

Srila Prabhupada states: If you become influenced by a 3rd class person,

you become 4th and 5th class.

 

ys

 

ad

[Guest guest]

PAMRO AGTSP!

 

> [Optional: This

> does not mean that other pranam mantras can’t be recited to connect one

> with Srila Prabhupäda.]

> ===============

 

sounds like sahajiyaism. nothing is compulsory...if you do it, it's fine,

if you don't, it's also fine... and that also about worshipping one's diksa

guru while offering puja to the Lord! what an irresponsible statement from a

supposedly responsible person! i can't figure out what goes wrong with some

people once they become little famous. or is it kaliyuga who makes them

famous and then utilises them for preaching non-KC siddhantas?

 

>[Optional: This does not mean that other pictures can’t be

> worshipped as the link to Srila Prabhupäda.]"

> ===============

 

lost in own speculation. talks like those confused hindus who worship

many demigods thinking that if they don't worship such and such demigod, he

/ she (the demigod) will get angry or feel bad, so no harm keeping him/her

on the altar and giving a flower. the writer needs to keep in mind that

Krishna consciousness is not based on such sentimentalism.

 

> ==============

> Proposal: It is an acceptable understanding of the process of initiation

> for the devotee performing the initiation ceremony and the devotee

> receiving initiation to consider that the initiate is qualified to

> participate in the ceremony due to the fact that he has already directly

> connected with Srila Prabhupäda, and that the initiation ceremony is an

> official acknowledgment of this fact, and that Srila Prabhupäda continues,

> after the initiation ceremony, to be the prominent, direct link to the

> paramparä for the initiate.

> =============

 

is this kk desai's writing?

 

> DG doesn’t use the word ‘current’ in this resolution, but it is obvious he

> is peddling ritvik through the lines. Is DG saying that after the

> initiation the initiate is a direct diksha disciple of Srila Prabhupada?

> When asked about this DG replies that the answer lies in his paper PL,

> saying neither yes or no. But his previous above resolutions clearly

> indicate his position as ritvik and mayavada.

 

no doubt about it.

 

> Everyone can connect with Srila Prabhupada directly, just pick up one of

> Srila Prabhupada’s books and start reading, its a direct link/connection.

 

this "direct-link" temptation by rtviks makes no sense to me. what is their

point anyway? are they envious of SP granddisciples, who are naturally very

dear to their spiritual grandfather / param-guru? my direct link /

relation with Srila Prabhupada is granddiscple-paramguru and i relish is

very much. what is their problem?

 

> As we discovered with the last group of ritvik proponents, ritvik ideology

> is not supported by the final adjudicating system for Vaisnavas, i.e.

> guru, sadhu, and sastra, and that in essence Dhira Govinda Prabhu's PL

> paper amounts to no more than the same ritvik speculation but with some

> additional mayavada.

 

new and improved TFO, version 1.1 ?

 

> I sincerely pray to Srila Prabhupada and Their Lordships to help Dhira

> Govinda Prabhu realise his misconceptions and throw them far away.

 

I too, whatever worth.

 

Hare Krishna.

 

ys, bbd

[Guest guest]

Letter PAMHO:10962475 (49 lines)

Internet: "Antoine Palmer" <palmer108 >

13-Jan-06 14:23 (15:23 +0100)

Ganga (dd) IDS (CIS SysOp) [51732]

For: Free Forum (Announcements)

Comment: Text PAMHO:10970193 by Ganga (dd) IDS (CIS SysOp)

My Apologies

---------------------------

Dear Prabhus,

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

 

I have had a PAMHO account since about 7 years. This year, I decided not to

renew my account and so it expired on January 1st.

Consequently, I have not been receiving any texts from the free forum.

 

Last night, a devotee forwarded me a text written by Pranava which alerted me

to the fact that there is what he referred to as a "controversy [which] has now

raged for some days" regarding

Satvatove's programs. I was unaware of this.

 

I am writing because I posted an announcement yesterday regarding an upcoming

combined Satvatove seminar in Gainesville. After being informed of the current

free forum discussion, I realize that my

posting may have come across as very abrupt and inconsiderate.

Although I don't personally feel that the posting was, in itself,

inappropriate, I do apologize to any of you who might have felt it insensitive,

considering the current circumstances.

 

Regarding the discussion itself, I am not up to date. Nor do I wish to be too

much involved. But I can share with you that the last 3 years of my life have

been, for me, the most challenging, dramatic and exciting so far, with many

life-changing experiences. I do not believe that Satvatove Institute offers a

panacea for all the problems of ISKCON and the world. But I can say that my

attendance of the combined course in January of 2004 was definitely one of the

most powerful and fruitful of those life-changing experiences. As time goes on,

I am appreciating more and more the benefit I received at that time and how the

lessons I learned are a great help for me and my family in our daily lives.

 

At the moment, I am enrolled as a student at Bhaktivedanta College in Radhadesh

and am feeling greatly inspired by the association of saintly devotees (both

amongst Radhadesh residents and visiting

teachers) and by the systematic study of Srimad Bhagavatam and

Vaishnava culture and philosophy. I am appreciating more and more the value of

education in our society and I see how my educational experience with Satvatove

played a key role in helping me develop a much more sincere and honest

determination to learn what it means to be a devotee of Krsna, follower of

Srila Prabhupada, and servant of the devotees.

 

I pray for your forgiveness for any misunderstanding. I also pray that you may

offer me your heartfelt blessings. I know I won't get far without them.

 

your servant

Krsna Kumar das

(Text PAMHO:10962475) -----

[Guest guest]

Dear esteemed Prabhus and Maharajas,

 

Please accept my respectful obeisances.

All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

 

Caitanya Caritamrita says that discussion of philosophy is useful as far as

it strenthens the mind in devotional service. I hope this post does that.

 

Ravindra Svarup Prabhu proposed the following thought process regarding

proponents of the poison theory that also has some parrallels with this

discussion. It goes something like this...

 

(poison advocate speaking)

1. I have had grave difficulties in dealing with the ISKCON instituion and

leadership.

2. I know that I am an advanced devotee and there can't be anything wrong

with my behaviour or understanding.

3. Therefore by this simple process of elimination there must be something

dreadfully wrong with the ISKCON instituion and leadership (acceptance of

poison theory follows as justification of above line of reasoning.)

 

 

In the case of some of the ritvik theorists it goes in a similar way.

 

1. I have had irreconcilable differences with my diksha guru.

2. I am an advanced devotee, so there couldn't be any fault from my side.

3. By elimination the problem must therefore be with either my diksha guru

or the entire diksha guru system within ISKCON.(Therefore we need to totally

change the system of initiations within ISKCON.)

 

 

However, if someone was actually experiencing the loving care and mature

guidance of an advanced Vaisnava, who is a direct disciple of His Divine

Grace; and at the same time, is able to 'directly connect' with Srila

Prabhupada through his lectures, conversations, morning walks, reading his

books etc etc. then how could he propose to change such a perfect system?

 

 

It is perfect because it is given by God, and no amount of word jugglery or

academic papers can ever change that fact.

 

dharman tu saksad bhagavat pranitam

 

tad viddhi pranipatena, pariprasnena sevaya

 

evam parampara praptam, imam rajarsayo vidhu

 

 

Lord Krishna says that He came to re-establish the parampara that had been

broken. Ritvikism, however sugar coated, is simply aimed at destroying the

parampara system by removing the deep and personal commitment given from

both sides of the Guru-disciple relationship.

 

A person who is nicely situated on the path back to Godhead, under the

direction of guru, sadhu and sastra, does not need to always make so much

noise about changing the arrangements of the spiritual institution, but

rather he knows the real change needs to happen in his own consciousness for

genuine spiritual advancement to take place. That is, development of loving

mood of service to Guru and Krishna and the Vaisnavas, and gradually getting

free from desires for sense gratification, name and fame, and respect from

others.

 

 

your humble servant,

Deva Gaura Hari das

 

 

> PAMRO AGTSP!

>

> > [Optional: This

> > does not mean that other pranam mantras can’t be recited to connect one

> > with Srila Prabhupäda.]

> > ===============

>

> sounds like sahajiyaism. nothing is compulsory...if you do it, it's fine,

> if you don't, it's also fine... and that also about worshipping one's

> diksa guru while offering puja to the Lord! what an irresponsible

> statement from a supposedly responsible person! i can't figure out what

> goes wrong with some people once they become little famous. or is it

> kaliyuga who makes them famous and then utilises them for preaching non-KC

> siddhantas?

>

> >[Optional: This does not mean that other pictures can’t be

> > worshipped as the link to Srila Prabhupäda.]"

> > ===============

>

> lost in own speculation. talks like those confused hindus who worship

> many demigods thinking that if they don't worship such and such demigod,

> he / she (the demigod) will get angry or feel bad, so no harm keeping

> him/her on the altar and giving a flower. the writer needs to keep in

> mind that Krishna consciousness is not based on such sentimentalism.

>

> > ==============

> > Proposal: It is an acceptable understanding of the process of initiation

> > for the devotee performing the initiation ceremony and the devotee

> > receiving initiation to consider that the initiate is qualified to

> > participate in the ceremony due to the fact that he has already directly

> > connected with Srila Prabhupäda, and that the initiation ceremony is an

> > official acknowledgment of this fact, and that Srila Prabhupäda

> > continues, after the initiation ceremony, to be the prominent, direct

> > link to the paramparä for the initiate.

> > =============

>

> is this kk desai's writing?

>

> > DG doesn’t use the word ‘current’ in this resolution, but it is obvious

> > he is peddling ritvik through the lines. Is DG saying that after the

> > initiation the initiate is a direct diksha disciple of Srila Prabhupada?

> > When asked about this DG replies that the answer lies in his paper PL,

> > saying neither yes or no. But his previous above resolutions clearly

> > indicate his position as ritvik and mayavada.

>

> no doubt about it.

>

> > Everyone can connect with Srila Prabhupada directly, just pick up one of

> > Srila Prabhupada’s books and start reading, its a direct

> > link/connection.

>

> this "direct-link" temptation by rtviks makes no sense to me. what is

> their point anyway? are they envious of SP granddisciples, who are

> naturally very dear to their spiritual grandfather / param-guru? my

> direct link / relation with Srila Prabhupada is granddiscple-paramguru and

> i relish is very much. what is their problem?

>

> > As we discovered with the last group of ritvik proponents, ritvik

> > ideology is not supported by the final adjudicating system for

> > Vaisnavas, i.e. guru, sadhu, and sastra, and that in essence Dhira

> > Govinda Prabhu's PL paper amounts to no more than the same ritvik

> > speculation but with some additional mayavada.

>

> new and improved TFO, version 1.1 ?

>

> > I sincerely pray to Srila Prabhupada and Their Lordships to help Dhira

> > Govinda Prabhu realise his misconceptions and throw them far away.

>

> I too, whatever worth.

>

> Hare Krishna.

>

> ys, bbd