Guest guest Posted January 12, 2006 Report Share Posted January 12, 2006 A > > The "spiritual doctor" recommends this prescription and I wholeheartedly > > endorse it. It is an investment you will not regret. > >I find that VERY hard to believe....I am meeting devotees all the world over >who are starting to regret meeting Dhira Govinda and doing his courses; some >who "wholeheartedly endorsed it," then regretted the decisions they made, >which include leaving spouses to "find the real you", and so much other rot. >There is nothing to be learned from such a person... I hope I understood, and gave a satisfactory reply Also I have been thinking about the things I hear, regarding those who go to any sort of therapy, what to speak of the one in context, how people have become the "real me" now, they were previously hiding behind the mask of "devotional service" to fit in with the institution, but now they are free, are being honest etc, and now they can stare others in the eyes for 5 minutes, and so forth. Why don't they step back and think of why they joined this movement, what did they hear that inspired them, do they remember all the Harinams, classes, discussion, realisations etc, do they remember praying to the Lord for guidance and help to get relief from sinful reactions, if we agree that suffering is because of reactions to sins, then hasn't Lord Krsna promised us, if we surrender he will deliver us, hasn't He said "Daivi hy esa guna mayi" the material energy can only be overcome if we surrender, why have so many felt the need to become distracted? Need I quote any more. I will be enlivened when I hear more tell us about their realisations, revelations about Krsna and the devotees, not revelations about their false egos, how they are a better person, a better communicator, the fact is we may never get all that stuff right, Srila Prabhupada used the phrase making the best use of a bad bargain, I take that to be the mind as well, okay, if we are really bad, Srila Prabhupada did say no crazies or lazies, but privately we may seek some temporary assistance if we are really suffering mentally, but I don't think it's right to advertise it, make others feel they are insecure, scared etc, if they don't try it, what will be the new term "Psycho-phobia" , let's get back to basics, please and as Lord Krishna also tells us "They derive great pleasure enlightening one another and conversing about me" Haribol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2006 Report Share Posted January 12, 2006 I have asked not to be included in any further discussions. Please remove me from oyur recipient's list. > A > > > The "spiritual doctor" recommends this prescription and I > > > wholeheartedly endorse it. It is an investment you will not regret. > > > >I find that VERY hard to believe....I am meeting devotees all the world > >over who are starting to regret meeting Dhira Govinda and doing his > >courses; some who "wholeheartedly endorsed it," then regretted the > >decisions they made, which include leaving spouses to "find the real > >you", and so much other rot. There is nothing to be learned from such a > >person... > I hope I understood, and gave a satisfactory reply > > > Also I have been thinking about the things I hear, regarding those > who go to any sort of therapy, what to speak of the one in context, > how people have become the "real me" now, they were previously hiding > behind the mask of "devotional service" to fit in with the > institution, but now they are free, are being honest etc, and now > they can stare others in the eyes for 5 minutes, and so forth. > > Why don't they step back and think of why they joined this movement, > what did they hear that inspired them, do they remember all the > Harinams, classes, discussion, realisations etc, do they remember > praying to the Lord for guidance and help to get relief from sinful > reactions, if we agree that suffering is because of reactions to > sins, then hasn't Lord Krsna promised us, if we surrender he will > deliver us, hasn't He said "Daivi hy esa guna mayi" the material > energy can only be overcome if we surrender, why have so many felt > the need to become distracted? Need I quote any more. I will be > enlivened when I hear more tell us about their realisations, > revelations about Krsna and the devotees, not revelations about their > false egos, how they are a better person, a better communicator, the > fact is we may never get all that stuff right, Srila Prabhupada used > the phrase making the best use of a bad bargain, I take that to be > the mind as well, okay, if we are really bad, Srila Prabhupada did > say no crazies or lazies, but privately we may seek some temporary > assistance if we are really suffering mentally, but I don't think > it's right to advertise it, make others feel they are insecure, > scared etc, if they don't try it, what will be the new term > "Psycho-phobia" , let's get back to basics, please and as Lord > Krishna also tells us "They derive great pleasure enlightening one > another and conversing about me" > > Haribol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2006 Report Share Posted January 12, 2006 I read the contents carefully, and submit my reply >I have asked not to be included in any further discussions. Please remove me >from oyur recipient's list. Sorry, I forgot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2006 Report Share Posted January 15, 2006 > A > > > The "spiritual doctor" recommends this prescription and I > > > wholeheartedly endorse it. It is an investment you will not regret. > > > >I find that VERY hard to believe....I am meeting devotees all the world > >over who are starting to regret meeting Dhira Govinda and doing his > >courses; some who "wholeheartedly endorsed it," You say you are meeting devotees from all over the world - thousands? hundreds? Give some idea how many, or it seems like a pot shot we all have to rally around - like a witch hunt. You have conducted no analysis to compare how many devotees really regret having gone to him compared to haw many found his course beneficial - yet as a lightweight intellectual bunch we allow posts like this to go unchallenged. > >then regretted the > >decisions they made, which include leaving spouses to "find the real > >you", and so much other rot. Is there any proof that Dhira Govinda advocated this? If so, someone has to be named as evidence. I am all for kicking a man when he is down, but it has to be done with the boots of evidence. > There is nothing to be learned from such a > >person... Well, yes, encouraging divorce is definitely unwanted in ISKCON, not that we seem to need much encouragement to do so - but where is the evidence? Any psychological course I know of makles the individual take responsibility for himself, and not blame others, eg partners, for their mental unhappiness. So the claim does not strike true for me. I was totally under the impression that the reason Dhira Govinda prabhu was not flavour of the month was because of his "Prominent Link" book - am I missing something? Or are you? > I hope I understood, and gave a satisfactory reply On a more serious note, I would like to add that I have heard as a fact that Dhira Govinda prabhu has webbed feet. ys Antardwip das Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2006 Report Share Posted January 16, 2006 > You say you are meeting devotees from all over the world - thousands? > hundreds? Give some idea how many, or it seems like a pot shot we all have > to rally around - like a witch hunt. You have conducted no analysis to > compare how many devotees really regret having gone to him compared to haw > many found his course beneficial - yet as a lightweight intellectual bunch > we allow posts like this to go unchallenged. You can consider yourself a lightweight intellectually, but don't involve the entire community of devotees in your sweeping statements, Antardwip. As for your "demands", why should I name names simply to satisfy your mind? The GBC has banned these courses for a reason: why don't you ask THEM why? Or do you think they're wrong and have based their "theories" on "hearsay"?? Here's something else for you to chew on: I've noticed all the areas where this course is most popular is where there is the strongest evidence of a rejection of authority, particularly after a guru has fallen down. High emotion underpinned by philosophical weakness. Haven't seen a single shred of evidence from anyone claiming "validity" or "integrity" in these courses to prove otherwise: in fact, just the opposite. So I'm still waiting. Doubt that day will come, somehow... ys Braja Sevaki dd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 17, 2006 Report Share Posted January 17, 2006 PAMHO AGTSP! > You say you are meeting devotees from all over the world - thousands? > hundreds? Give some idea how many, or it seems like a pot shot we all have > to rally around - like a witch hunt. You have conducted no analysis to > compare how many devotees really regret having gone to him compared to haw > many found his course beneficial - yet as a lightweight intellectual bunch > we allow posts like this to go unchallenged. although what you said sounds logical we don't have to really go asking 1000s of people to find out the truth because even if the truth is spoken by only one truthful person it's enough to establish the truth. what matters is the source. if the source is genuine, that's it. an intelligent person will accept it without going around. what should we do if we ask 5000 persons asking if Krishna is the supreme Lord and all say no? we can't accept such majority to establish truth. Hare Krishna. ys, bbd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 17, 2006 Report Share Posted January 17, 2006 > > You say you are meeting devotees from all over the world - thousands? > > hundreds? Give some idea how many, or it seems like a pot shot we all > > have to rally around - like a witch hunt. You have conducted no analysis > > to compare how many devotees really regret having gone to him compared > > to haw many found his course beneficial - yet as a lightweight > > intellectual bunch we allow posts like this to go unchallenged. > > You can consider yourself a lightweight intellectually, but don't involve > the entire community of devotees in your sweeping statements, Antardwip. > Sorry! I didn't know it was you who wrote that piece - honestly! > As for your "demands", why should I name names simply to satisfy your > mind? The GBC has banned these courses for a reason: why don't you ask > THEM why? I thought it was because Dhira Govinda was a ritvik the copurses were banned, not because the GBC had a position against the sort of courses he holds. I thought he was banned, not because of bad courses but because such courses gave too much profile to a ritvik supporter. Is that correct? Have I got it wrong? > Or do you think they're wrong and have based their "theories" on > "hearsay"?? Here's something else for you to chew on: I've noticed all the > areas where this course is most popular is where there is the strongest > evidence of a rejection of authority, particularly after a guru has fallen > down. Please back-up strong statements with data, or it is hearsay. I have some solid data for you, not just my word for it: DG was in the UK 2 months ago before all this blew up (I think the UK was the catalyst) and about fifteen devotees from ISKCON attended, including my good wife - or should it be bad wife and they (ALL ISKCON devoptees who attended) were raving at how much they got out of it - none of those devotees got any sense of DG's ritvik position from the course, but if they had known the GBC ban, I presume they would not have attended. There was also a totally ISKCON-envious ex-Jayatirtha disciple there, and all the while DG was trying to get him to see that he was the problem, not ISKCON. In other words, while it is certainly true DG has misunderstood and is promoting through his book a philosophy which supports those that hate ISKCON the most, and ISKCON must cut him off from contacting out membership as much as possible, but it does not reflect at all on the course he gives which may or may not be good. These are two separate issues. The ritvik issue is clear-cut because the GBC have decided. The course content issue is not, to my knowledge, the issue he is banned for. > High emotion underpinned by philosophical weakness. Haven't seen a > single shred of evidence from anyone claiming "validity" or "integrity" in > these courses to prove otherwise: in fact, just the opposite. So I'm still > waiting. Doubt that day will come, somehow... > Well, doubt no more - my long-suffering wife found it really helped her - and furthermore I am not expecting divorce papers any time soon, amazingly. Well, not so amazing really as I keep her too busy with lots of cooking and cleaning. She really wants to get away from Leicester (why?) to attend the DG course in Florida, but as DG is under a cloud, it would not help her within ISKCON, and her goal is to help devotees. So she may do an alternative course in Radhadesh instead. In the UK at present there is a devotee called Akrura who does Bhaktivedanta Coaching, and he also mentors and helps devotees, whether it is with chanting, devotional service goals. I am thinking of getting his help so I can get to bed before ten at night - it is a long-term problem I have. The GBC have not come to any conclusions yet that I know of concerning mentoring/counselling etc which is a very large and vague field, so we cannot dismiss it yet, which is what I had a feeling you were doing and I tried to address it. ys Antardwip das ps sorry again - don't be too cross.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2006 Report Share Posted January 22, 2006 > > You can consider yourself a lightweight intellectually, but don't > > involve the entire community of devotees in your sweeping statements > Sorry! I didn't know it was you who wrote that piece - honestly! It doesn't matter who wrote it: you're sitting there defending Dhira Govinda's "rights", but you challenge that someone can say something in defense yet complain that it goes unchallenged due to a general intellectual lacking. Go figure. > I thought it was because Dhira Govinda was a ritvik the copurses were > banned, not because the GBC had a position against the sort of courses he > holds. I thought he was banned, not because of bad courses but because > such courses gave too much profile to a ritvik supporter. Is that > correct? Have I got it wrong? Can't you figure out the connection?? If someone's a ritvik, what do you think you can learn from them? Someone who has rejected his guru, embraced ritvikvada, and whose wife left him a year ago is teaching courses on how to "transform" and find the "authentic self" through the development of r/ships....I mean, for God's sake, join the dots. It's like going to Bill Clinton to learn about fidelity and discretion ... > Please back-up strong statements with data, or it is hearsay. I have some > solid data for you, not just my word for it: DG was in the UK 2 months > ago before all this blew up (I think the UK was the catalyst) and about > fifteen devotees from ISKCON attended, including my good wife - or > should it be bad wife and they (ALL ISKCON devoptees who attended) > were raving at how much they got out of it Yes, yes...very good...my heart soars with joy. About as much joy as I got out of hearing how much people "got out of" Narayana Maharaja years ago, and how "wonderful" he was....excuse me while I go outside and gag.... > Well, doubt no more - Oh, I doubt VERY much, and will continue to do so, thanks....because I'm backing my doubts on the philosophical understanding that milk touched by the lips of a servant is deadly -- no matter what YOU think it tastes like. OK by you? Hope so: it's what Srila Prabhupada teaches after all: and he's who *I* will follow: not some misfit, disgruntled wanna-be like DG: no matter how "wonderful" everyone thinks he is right now. God, you want to talk about "intellectual lightweights?" Then take a look at the people running after these courses. > The GBC have not come to any conclusions yet that I know of concerning > mentoring/counselling etc which is a very large and vague field, so we > cannot dismiss it yet, which is what I had a feeling you were doing and I > tried to address it. What I find amazing is that some are sitting around apparently waiting for the GBC to tell them it's OK, but if they tell them it's not, they're anti- GBC. Again: go figure. ys Braja Sevaki dd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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