Official Ramakanta vs. IRM discussion thread

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Posted by Yaduraja on Feb 02, 2006:

 

Dear Ramakanta Prabhus,

PAMHO, AGTSP,

You wrote:

 

> Since I no longer want to waste time, I will now just wait until you

> posted the proof that I asked you to provide. Please tell me on what date

> you will post it.

 

If you ‘no longer want to waste time’ that is very good, since that’s

practically all you’ve done in recent weeks.

 

I just have the issue of whether ISKCON existed before it existed to reply

to, a challenge you made which is again a complete waste of time so far as I

can see. Since you have not given me permission to ignore it I shall answer

it below.

 

If you do NOT write more absurd nonsense on this matter I shall then be able

to begin re-proving point a) from tomorrow. So now its entirely up to you

whether you want to waste yet more time by trying to defend your ridiculous

challenge.

 

Firstly I would just comment that I find it just staggering that after

claiming to have read The Final Order, the NCIP paper, and having debated

with me for months, you have only just realised that our position, and hence

any debate we undertake, is confined to what should be going on within

ISKCON, the society Srila Prabhupada started in 1966:

 

> Oh, you are discussing only the legal entity "ISKCON", incorporated in

> July 1966. (I am discussing ISKCON, Srila Prabhupada's spiritual

> movement.) (Ramakanta Jan 30, 2006 - 06:23 AM)

 

You clearly have such a poor grasp of our position, no doubt due to your

problems with English, the chances are that if you actually understood

properly what we were saying you might well agree with us.

 

But there is an added complication.

 

I seem to be communicating with two, dissociated Ramakantas.

 

I had asked:

 

> How could Srila Prabhupada be the sole diksa guru for The International

> Society for Krishna Consciousness before The International Society for

> Krishna Consciousness existed?

 

To which you, or the other Ramakanta replied:

 

> Please discuss this with the person who claimed that.

 

So, to whichever Ramakanta wrote the following:

 

> You wrote that Srila Prabhupada set himself up, deliberately, in the

> position of the sole diksa guru for ISKCON in 1966. But this is possible

> only if in 1965 Srila Prabhupada was not the diksa guru for ISKCON. So

> please prove by a statement from Srila Prabhupada that in 1965 Srila

> Prabhupada was not the diksa guru for ISKCON, or in your claim replace

> "1966" with "1965". Note that although ISKCON has been incorporated in

> 1966, it already existed in 1965.

( A Ramakanta, Jan 26, 2006 - 08:33 AM)

 

…I would like to ask:

 

why should I need to prove that Srila Prabhupada ‘was not the diksa guru for

ISKCON’ in 1965 (which is yet again an illogical challenge to prove a

negative) if ISKCON did not exist in 1965?

 

If this particular Ramakanta is not claiming there is at least the

possibility that Srila Prabhupada was the sole diksa guru for The

International Society for Krishna Consciousness before The International

Society for Krishna Consciousness practically existed, then why did he

write:

 

> But this is possible only if in 1965 Srila Prabhupada was not the diksa

> guru for ISKCON.

 

Whichever Ramakanta wrote the above obviously thinks that there is at least

a possibility the International Society for Krishna Consciousness DID exist

in 1965, otherwise why write such nonsense. Therefore could he please

produce the evidence for this other ISKCON that existed pre-66 that none of

us have ever heard of? (Please note: I am asking for proof that something

DID exist, not for proof that something DID NOT exist. The latter is a

classic logical fallacy. But then you should know that by now).

 

So far as we are concerned Srila Prabhupada could only be the sole diksa

guru for ISKCON AFTER ISKCON came into existence, not before. At least one

Ramakanta agrees that ISKCON came into legal existence in 1966:

 

> ISKCON has been incorporated in 1966

(A Ramakanta Jan 26, 2006 - 08:33 AM)

 

But then a less sensible Ramakanta claims in the VERY SAME SENTENCE:

 

> it already existed in 1965.

(Another Ramakanta Jan 26, 2006- 08:33 AM)

 

If the International Society For Krishna Consciousness was only incorporated

in 1966, then obviously it did not exist as a Society in 1965.

 

Why would Srila Prabhupada bother to incorporate the Society in 1966 if he

already did that in 1965? Its pure madness!!!

 

You, quote Srila Prabhupada alluding to a movement that he started in 1965,

which you call ‘Srila Prabhupada's spiritual movement’. That's fine, I am

not arguing this point. But if this earlier, embryonic ‘spiritual movement’

was not the legal entity called ISKCON, then it is not relevant to this

debate. We are debating Srila Prabhupada’s instructions for ISKCON. Bas.

 

I repeat.

 

We are ONLY interested in discussing what should be happening WITHIN ISKCON,

not what should be happening within the Gaudiya Matha, The League Of

Devotees, Gaudiya Vaishnavism in general, earlier manifestations of Lord

Caitanya’s 500 year old Sankirtan Movement, or anything else. Is that clear

now?

 

So maybe the two Ramakantas’ could discuss it amongst themselves and come to

some agreement over who made the above nonsensical challenge. If that

Ramakanta then wisely decides that he does not wish to carry on with this

ridiculous and time wasting challenge, I can then start re-proving point a)

first thing tomorrow. So just let me know what you want to do:

 

1) Carry on with the above challenge.

2) Move on to re-proving point a).

 

Anyway, best wishes to both of you.

Ys

Yadu