Official Ramakanta vs. IRM discussion thread

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Posted by Yaduraja on Mar 26, 2006:

 

Dear Ramakanta Prabhu,

PAMHO. AGTSP!

You challenged:

 

> You are evading my challenge to prove your claims.

 

No you are wrong yet again, I already answered your so-called challenge. You

wrote previously:

 

> Also, you could still not prove (by quotes from Srila Prabhupada)

> following claims:

>

> Before Srila Prabhupada conducted the first initiation ceremony in ISKCON

> he had already set things up to be the sole diksa guru for ISKCON.

 

I never claimed the above, so as you would say I do not have to prove that

which I never claimed.

 

In my previous lengthy post I already explained what my actual position is.

You have simply invented a position I have never presented. When I

previously asked you to show me where I had ever made the above assertion

you presented two separate quotes, making two distinct points:

 

> On Jan 19, 2006 Yadurajadas wrote:

> But you can only be the ‘sole diksa guru’ for an institution if you have

> already set things up like that.

>

> On Feb 08, 2006 Yaduraja das replied:

>

> > Do you accept that Srila Prabhupada was already the sole diksa guru for

> > ISKCON before he conducted the first initiation ceremony in ISKCON?

>

> Oh yes of course.

 

The second quote confirms only what we now know with HINDSIGHT, the first

quote explains what Srila Prabhupada would have to have done at some point

in time so as to inform such HINDSIGHT. You appear to have arc-welded these

two separate points together without my sanction and then presented the

mangled result as my position. Do you know what the word HINDSIGHT means, if

not please look it up? To remind you that I already answered this point I am

posting below my previous reply. Thus I am not evading anything. If this is

clear then I shall go on to the rest of your daft points.

Best wishes

Ys

Yadu

 

 

> With regards my position that Srila Prabhupada was factually the sole

> diksa guru for ISKCON before he fully established himself as such

> institutionally, let me give an example you may be able to relate to.

>

> Let us suppose you were born with the wonderful gift of yodelling. Indeed

> your yodelling was so powerful and sweet that you were factually the

> greatest yodeller in the world. Yet if you did not yodel in public; if you

> did not enter the correct yodelling competitions and become recognised as

> the greatest yodeller amongst the yodelling fraternity, then you would not

> have fully established yourself as the greatest yodeller in the world,

> even though factually you were. Once you were established fully within the

> hearts and minds of the yodelling community as the greatest then it could

> be said, with HINDSIGHT, that even before you were awarded that greatest

> of yodelling accolades, champion yodeller of the world, you were still

> factually the greatest yodeller in the world.

>

> Similarly we know with HINDSIGHT that Srila Prabhupada was the saviour of

> the world before he left India for New York on the Jaladutta; but in order

> to establish himself as such he performed various devotional activities so

> that this fact became manifest on the physical platform.

>

> Similarly, even though we know through HINDSIGHT that factually Srila

> Prabhupada was the sole diksa guru for ISKCON from the very beginning, in

> order to fully establish himself in that role on the observable, physical

> platform, he had to arrange things deliberately to make it happen.

>

> The function of the diksa guru is to initiate disciples. If Srila

> Prabhupada had incorporated ISKCON but then immediately returned to India,

> or just acted as an instructing spiritual master, then he would not have

> established himself as the diksa guru for ISKCON. Thus it is only with

> HINDSIGHT that we now know he was the diksa guru for ISKCON all along

> because of what later transpired. It was not necessarily fully manifest on

> the physical platform (which is what we are referring to by the word

> ‘established’) from day one of the existence of the legal entity called

> ISKCON.

>

> To establish oneself as the sole diksa guru for a society you need to

> first incorporate the society,

>

> Then you need to set the standards for that society,

>

> Then you need to attract followers who are willing to accept those

> standards,

>

> Then you need to get those followers to accept you as the ultimate

> authority within that society,

>

> Then you need to train them, observe them, and finally offer formal

> initiation to those followers when you think they are ready.

>

> At that last stage it would be fair to say you were firmly established as

> the sole diksa guru for that society.

>

> Therefore there is a process.

>

> The complete establishment of his sole diksa guruship within the hearts

> and minds of his followers was not complete or instantaneous on signing

> some legal papers. It took great effort on Srila Prabhupada’s part;

> deliberate, meticulous, devotional effort; to fully establish himself in

> that position within the society he founded. Even after establishing

> himself as the sole diksa guru for ISKCON through his activity of setting

> all the standards, observing and initiating all the bhaktas and then

> performing the ceremony, he occasionally had to re-establish himself as

> such in reaction to ambitious deviants like Tusta Krishna etc. by telling

> them they could not initiate in his presence.

>

> Srila Prabhupada achieved all this in 1966, and in that way, through such

> a programme of deliberate activity (or ‘making the streets wet’), he fully

> established himself, on the physical platform, amongst the minds and

> hearts of the society’s’ members, as the sole diksa guru for ISKCON in

> September of that year.

>

> In Jan 1966 there was no society called ISKCON. By the end of 1966 there

> was a society called ISKCON, with Srila Prabhupada fully and firmly

> established as its sole diksa guru through deliberate acts on his part.

>

> That is what we mean when we say:

>

> Srila Prabhupada established himself as the sole diksa guru for ISKCON in

> 1966.