Official Ramakanta vs. IRM discussion thread

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Posted by Yaduraja on Apr 11, 2006:

 

Dear Ramakanta Prabhu,

PAMHO. AGTSP!

You complain:

 

> You did not answer my question. So here is it again:

>

> If by "established himself" and "set himself up" you mean "made himself

> recognized and accepted", then why don't you just write that and in this

> way avoid a long discussion?

 

I did answer your question, so here it is again:

 

Point a) as re-worded by you gives the process by which he established

himself as the sole diksa guru for ISKCON, by making himself recognised and

accepted as such. Just as if you had established yourself as the greatest

yodeller in Switzerland by making yourself recognised and accepted as such.

Thus I am not changing what we have agreed. If someone makes himself

recognised and accepted in a certain role, then it logically follows that he

established himself in that role. You write:

 

> We can move on only if you phrase your point a) as follows:

>

> "Srila Prabhupada made himself recognized and accepted as the sole diksa

> guru for ISKCON in 1966."

>

> If you write anything else, you will have to provide a proof for all

> dictionary meanings of what you write.

 

If someone makes himself recognised and accepted in a certain role then they

establish themselves in that role. I just think you should realise the

implications of your re-worded point a).

 

> You (IRM) say that the ISKCON gurus set themselves up as diksa gurus.

 

Yes, and without any authorisation that we can see, even though they claim

this authorisation was given by Srila Prabhupada in a recorded form BEFORE

he physically departed. He never did, it is a lie. Even you agree they have

not proven themselves to be authorised. This being the case then surely all

initiations should be stopped immediately until it is cleared up. In the

meantime everyone can just take shelter of Srila Prabhupada. We would be

happier even with that as a default position.

 

> The dictionary meaning of "set oneself up as" is "elevate, raise, put

> oneself in a position of authority or power" and "put oneself forward as;

> claim to be". And you object that they did that, namely that they

> elevated, raised, put themselves in a position of diksa gurus and that

> they claimed to be diksa gurus.

 

Yes that is correct, we do object since there is no institutional mandate

for them to act as such that we have seen. If they want to operate WITHIN

ISKCON then they must abide by the rules, methodologies and procedures laid

down by the founder of that institution. At present they are following

procedures they themselves introduced after 1977. All bogus therefore.

 

> But you are now saying that also Srila Prabhupada set himself up as the

> sole diksa guru.

 

Yes he did, by making himself accepted and recognised as such, as you have

so astutely observed.

 

> So according to the dictionary meaning of "set oneself up as" you are

> saying that Srila Prabhupada elevated, raised, put himself in a position

> of the sole diksa guru and he claimed to be the sole diksa guru.

 

Spot on, now we're motoring. Of course we all accept he was authooirsed to

do this, but I can give you quotes where Srila Prabhupada clearly

re-inforces the fact that he is the only diksa guru for ISKCON.

 

> Of course you don't mean that.

 

Oh yes we do.

 

> But that is the dictionary meaning of what you wrote.

 

That’s right.

 

> Therefore I request you not to say that Srila Prabhupada set himself up as

> the sole diksa guru for ISKCON. Rather you can say that he made himself

> recognized and accepted as such.

 

Which means that he established himself as such.

 

> BTW. "Methodology" means "science of methods". Is that the right word?

> Probably you wanted to say "method".

 

In the Collins English Dictionary (1979) the word is defined also as "the

system and principles used in a particular discipline", in this case the

‘discipline’ is Srila Prabhupada’s imposition of standards of practice

around the science of diksa within the institutional context of ISKCON.

 

If you actually had a better grasp of English you would probably agree with

us. If you are clear now we can move on.

Best wishes

Ys

Yadu