AW: sad-acharity and ISKCON

[Guest guest]

>> But once again, being properly human is supposed to be INCLUDED in the

>> all-inclusive process of devotional service, rather than excluded from

it.

>

>Sometimes or rather quite often a devotee in the beginning stage of

>advancement may not posses some of the 26 (or more) characteristics of a

>vaisnava.

 

Right, but these 25 ( +1- for krsna eka saranam) qualities are the sure

gauge of our advancement.

 

If they are not manifest after a reasonable amount of time, or worse yet, if

they are not recognized as necessary -- something is wrong either with our

practice or with understanding, or both.

 

>Proper practice and proper behavior to all are mutually interdependent in

>the stage of sadhana.

 

Yes, they are.

 

I just meant to say that proper practice in itself should INEVITABLY bring

us to a point when we realize that without properly dealing with everybody

around us in a way, which one could describe as being properly humane, we

are stuck and cannot proceed any further.

 

Incidentally, this same "point of truth" coincides with the border between

namaparadha and namabhasa, or, for that matter, kanistha and madyama.

 

In other words, becoming compassionate to everybody **in practice** is a

natural criterion of our properly advancing, and if it is not visible, it is

a reason for concern with ourselves, individually and collectively.

 

>The manual you present perfectly defends the position about respect to all,

>non-enviousness towards the bodies of living entities etc. Very powerful

>presentation and I think nobody in our discussion had ever supported the

>opposite notions i.e. that we have to be disrespectful, envious etc.

 

But, if you were attentive, "the manual" also spoke ***of the most

appropriate way*** of showing that compassion and respect to other living

entities, which also happens to assist them on the way back to Godhead, and

which happens to be vast prasadam distribution.

 

Therefore it beggars my logic how this same process of prasadam distribution

could be labeled here as a "mundane activity" which is meant "mostly to

benefit the people's bodies" and is "no attempt... to benefit them from

point of view of the real self interest."

 

>This famous quote is also presented in BRS by Rupa Goswami in order to show

>that certain categories of people who aren't wishing to give up their

>material attachments have to continue practicing karmas (varnasrama). This

>is not in the context of Rupa Goswami a general prescription for a person

>who's already engaged in the practice of bhakti.

 

Right. But this is exactly the question: "If we are engaged in the practice

of bhakti so well that we can scorn compassion and other duties to people in

general as something we can blissfully get along without".

 

If answer is "yes" than we have to think again, because, as we have already

shown, neither paramahamsas nor sadhakas refrain from them -- the former

take to them naturally, and the latter -- for the sake of their own

purification.

 

>I espesially like to bring the attention to the phrase:

>

>"Fortunately, if one develops directly a desire to engage in Krsna

>consciousness in pure devotional service, he does not need to undergo

>step-by-step improvements in spiritual realization. "

 

Big "IF". And if one does not develop that desire, that is invariably

accompanied with compassion, what does he have to do?

 

>And Lord Krsna says: ksipram bhavati dharmatma - just by his unflinching

>devotion a fallen devotee will quickly become sadhu i.e. develops

>spontaneous quality of compassion and ability to correctly help everybody

>on this basis.

 

Right.

 

Incidentally, the very first qualities a sadhu is characterized by Lord

Kapiladev is by "titiksava karunika suhrdam sarva-dehinam"-- or by his or

her tolerance, mercy and friendliness to all living entities. (SB 3.25.21)

 

And if that "spontaneous quality of compassion and ability to correctly help

everybody on this basis" has not yet developed, it is a solid reason to slam

all endeavors to learn and practice compassion as "mundane charity" meant

for "maintaining bodies", right?

 

>> But even when we do rise to the transcendental level, we will still do it

>> spontaneously anyway -- out of pure and unalloyed compassion, as Srila

>> Prabhupada did it back in the "Matchless Gifts" storefront back in 1966,

>> cooking, distributing and cleaning up all by himself.

>

>Srila Prabhupada is the perfect example for all of us to follow.

 

It appears that we have a strange notion of "two compassions" -- one for

devotees and the other for people in general.

 

Unfortunately, there is only one compassion. And if we do not have it for

people in general, we will have a hard time showing it for devotees. Such

truncated compassion is no more compassion, but some clannish mentality a la

Cosa Nostra.

 

And, conversely, if we think that we do have compassion for devotees, we

should be able to muster enough of it for the rest.

 

Please forgive me for my somewhat sarcastic and mentorly tone.

 

But -- do we still hold that FFL program, when properly conducted, is some

mundane charity meant for bodily maintenance?

 

Maybe, if we clearly answer this question, we might be able to put an end to

this discussion and save some time for direct devotional service. Or for

prasadam distribution. :-)

 

Begging to remain

 

your servant,

Madana-mohan das