A challenge to IRM[Final]

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"Hector Rosario" <hrosario (AT) math (DOT) uprm.edu>

"IRM" <irm (AT) iskconirm (DOT) com>

Wed, 10 May 2006 14:04:46 -0300

A challenge to IRM[Final]

 

Hare Krishna, Krishnakant Prabhu:

 

Please accept my greetings. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

 

I am writing to inform you of the end of this debate. I have tried to treat

you with all the respect a Vaisnava deserves, and have repeatedly asked for

forgiveness for any offenses I might have committed against you or any other

Vaisnava as we engaged in this exchange. Yet, you seem disturbed in your

replies and hence it is wiser for me to avoid falling pray to anger, which

might lead to vaisnava-aparadha. Nevertheless, I will leave you with a

detailed explanation of the first and only point we were able to debate to

help you see the falseness of your claim. Please, save it for future

reference as you might never hear directly from me again.

 

Firstly, I have admitted to making mistakes in the progression of this

debate, some of them pointed out by you. However, those mistakes only helped

to refine the arguments and our search for truth, which is to what, as

sincere devotees, we should aspire. I will leave here the best I can offer

in terms of deductive reasoning, which I admit is not the proper way to

understand spiritual matters. However, since you have attempted to use the

deductive reasoning approach (i.e. the ascending process) to establish

the ‘veracity’ of your claims, I used the same method to show you where your

argument in IRM’s “The Final Order” went wrong. If you want a verification

of the pristine logic of the arguments hereby presented, look for the kind

assistance of a mathematician or a logician. However, if you are interested

in understanding spiritual matters, simply surrender to Krishna through His

bona fide representative. The descending process of spiritual realization

will then take place and you will be free to abandon all this nonsense, to

which I have been part.

 

As I said in my previous message, I followed your advice and went back to

IRM’s Special Summary Issue to carefully read your words and study your

arguments. Needless to say, I derived no spiritual benefit from the reading

itself, but the reading gave me an opportunity to serve Srila Prabhupada by

refuting your arguments. Remember Srila Prabhupada instructed us to use our

writing abilities to spread Krishna Consciousness, not to become an

impediment in such spreading.

 

My original claim in Point 1 was that your purported Proof 4 in IRM’s The

Final Order: “One guru falls = no Gurus authorised” was not logically sound.

Again, please, study this simple argument carefully, and you will

immediately realize that ‘proof 4’ is no proof at all, since from the very

beginning it suffers from a serious logical flaw.

 

In the Special Issue you write:

 

“Here is the proof recapped:

 

a) Nectar of Devotion states that when not properly authorised – sometimes

the Guru falls.

b) Hence, if Guru falls, then he was not properly authorised.

c) But all Gurus authorised in exactly the same way.

d) Thus all Gurus not properly authorised.

e) Ritvik system authorised by July 9th directive remains.”

 

Here is the flaw: B does not follow from A. Let us look at the logical

structure of the statements. Let P be the statement “guru not authorized”.

Let Q be the statement “guru falls.”

 

You quote Srila Prabhupada in the Nectar of Devotion thus: “But sometimes,

if a spiritual master is not properly authorized and only on his own

initiative becomes a spiritual master, he may be carried away by an

accumulation of wealth and large numbers of disciples.”

 

I will accept your interpretation that being “carried away by an

accumulation of wealth and large numbers of disciples” constitutes a

falldown, which is only the agreed interpretation of two conditioned souls.

Now, there are at least two ways to show B does not follow from A.

 

CASE 1: Consider the word ‘sometimes’:

 

The word ‘sometimes’ is not conclusive, something may or may not happen. If

a guru is not authorized, then he may or may not fall. We cannot conclude

anything further than that.

 

Let P and Q be the following clauses:

 

P: guru not authorized

Q: guru falls

-P: guru authorized (This is the negation of P.)

-Q: guru does not fall (This is the negation of Q.)

 

Remember that by a conditional statement is meant a statement of the

form “if...then.”

 

Using this notation, Srila Prabhupada’s conditional statement becomes:

 

If guru not authorized, then guru falls OR guru does not fall.

(Notice that the inclusive “or” logically represents “sometimes.”

 

In the abbreviated notation, the statement becomes:

 

If P, then (Q or –Q).

 

This conditional statement is always true, regardless of the truth values of

P and Q. Nothing further can be logically concluded. B does not follow from

A.

 

CASE 2: Ignore ‘sometimes’:

 

For the sake of argument, let us ignore the word ‘sometimes.’ This might be

an offense since we are changing Srila Prabhupada’s words. However, I do it

only to show you that ‘Proof 4’ is no proof at all, at least logically

speaking.

 

Srila Prabhupada’s dictum becomes:

 

If P, then Q.

 

In B you claim, “If Q, then P”, that is “if guru falls, then he was not

authorized.” This is called the inverse of the conditional statement. These

two statements, namely the conditional and its inverse are not logically

equivalent. A high school textbook on geometry or on introductory logic will

help you see the truth of this. An introductory text on Boolean algebras

will also do. After all, the entire structure of mathematical truth is built

on these grounds.

 

In summary, B does not follow from A. If you want to establish the validity

of B, then you would need additional evidence or arguments. A direct quote

from Srila Prabhupada stating “if a guru falls, then he was not authorized”

will suffice. However, if you cannot show the validity of B *independently*

of A, then the entire argument collapses.

 

It gets a little worse than that for IRM if we consider the contrapositive

of Srila Prabhupada’s dictum (that is, ignoring ‘sometimes’).

 

As you might already know, a conditional statement is logically equivalent

to its contrapositive, that is, the following two statements are equivalent:

 

i) If P, then Q.

ii) If –Q, then –P.

 

Saying “If guru not authorized, then guru falls” is equivalent to saying “If

guru does not fall, then guru is authorized.” That was not your intended

conclusion, but is what logically follows. Again, the introductory textbook

on logic might help you with these fine points. If one is conversant with

the rules of deductive reasoning, one should not attempt to use it,

especially in spiritual matters, as one may commit many offenses. With the

evidence you have provided in “The Final Order” one can reach a different

conclusion than IRM’s, simply by adhering to the standard rules of inference.

 

There is more that can be said about these matters, especially if one reads

Srila Prabhupada’s words carefully. In fact, there is a CASE 3 that can be

considered to render your claim useless yet again. However, please do not

waste your time on preparing a revised edition of The Final Order to make up

for these mistakes. As a sincere devotee, that is the least you could do.

You would not want to cheat others, having been warned of a logical flaw in

your argument. Nevertheless, there is something much better you can do:

focus on distributing Srila Prabhupada’s books, and not your own.

 

Always remember that we must cultivate the hearing process as a way to

promote the validity of the descending method for realizing spiritual truth.

My only advice to you is to devote your energies to discussing Krishna-

katha. Ask for forgiveness from all those you might have offended throughout

the years, even if unintentionally, and take shelter at Srila Prabhupada’s

feet.

 

I will end this debate with a quote from our beloved Srila Prabhupada:

 

“The scripture known as the Brahma-yamala states: “If someone wants to pose

himself as a great devotee without following the authorities of the revealed

scriptures, then his activities will never help him to make progress in

devotional service. Instead, he will simply create disturbances for the

sincere students of devotional service.”” (The Nectar of Devotion, Chapter 7)

 

I pray not to have committed this offense.

 

At Srila Prabhupada’s feet,

Hector

 

P.S. Here is a list of Srila Prabhupada’s quotes compiled by Madhudvisa

Prabhu that serve as ample evidence of the falsity of the ritviks. You may

post them on your website, along with our exchanges in their entirety.

 

*********************************

761210DB.HYD Lectures

So we got this information from His Divine Grace Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati

Thakura, and that knowledge is still going on. You are receiving through his

servant. And in future the same knowledge will go to your students. This is

called parampara system. Evam parampara prap... It is not that you have

become a student and you'll remain student. No. One day you shall become

also guru and make more students, more students, more. That is Caitanya

Mahaprabhu's mission, not that perpetually... Yes, one should remain

perpetually a student, but he has to act as guru. That is the mission of

Caitanya Mahaprabhu. It is not that because I am acting as guru, I am no

longer student. No, I am still student. Caitanya Mahaprabhu taught us this

instruction that we shall always remain a foolish student before our Guru

Maharaja. That is the Vedic culture. I may be very big man, but still, I

should remain a foolish student to my guru. That is the qualification. Guru

more murkha dekhi' karila sasana. We should be always prepared to be

controlled by the guru. That is very good qualification. Yasya prasadad

bhagavat-prasadah. Ara na kariha mane asa. So we should become always a very

obedient student to our guru. That is the qualification. That is the

spiritual qualification.

 

660729BG.NY Lectures

There is no consideration of material impediment. So it is open for

everyone. Catur-varnyam maya srstam. That is a chance given, that you can

become a brahmana, you can become a great devotee of Lord Krsna, and you can

become the spiritual master of the world. That is the... And I think you

should take seriously.

 

750406CC.MAY Lectures

And to become acarya is not very difficult. First of all, to become very

faithful servant of your acarya, follow strictly what he says. Try to please

him and spread Krsna consciousness. That's all. It is not at all difficult.

Try to follow the instruction of your Guru Maharaja and spread Krsna

consciousness. That is the order of Lord Caitanya.

 

680817VP.MON Lectures

Now, this spiritual master's succession is not very difficult. Of course, my

students, they offer me so much respect, but all these respects are due to

my spiritual master. I am nothing. I am just like peon. Just like peon

delivers one letter. He is not responsible for what is written in that

letter. He is not responsible for what is written in that letter. He simply

delivers. But a peon's duty is that he must sincerely carry out the order of

the postmaster and deliver the letter to the proper person. That is their

duty. Similarly, this parampara system is like that. Every one of us should

become a spiritual master because the world is in blazing fire. (aside:) You

can give them prasadam. Now, of course, time is very high. So to understand

the spiritual master... Spiritual master is not a new invention. It is

simply following the orders of the spiritual master. So all my students

present here who are feeling so much obliged... I am also obliged to them

because they are helping me in this missionary work. At the same time, I

shall request them all to become spiritual master. Every one of you should

be spiritual master next. And what is their duty? Whatever you are hearing

from me, whatever you are learning from me, you have to distribute the same

in toto without any addition or alteration. Then all of you become the

spiritual master. That is the science of becoming spiritual master.

Spiritual master is not any... To become a spiritual master is not very

wonderful thing. Simply one has to become sincere soul. That's all. Evam

parampara-praptam imam rajarsayo viduh. In the Bhagavad-gita it is said

that "By disciplic succession this yoga process of Bhagavad-gita was handed

down from disciple to disciple. But in course of time that disciplic

succession is now lost. Therefore, Arjuna, I am teaching you again the same

philosophy."

 

Songs Purport to Sri-Sri-Gurv-astakam 690102PU.LA

We should always remember that the spiritual master is in the disciplic

succession. The original spiritual master is the Supreme Personality of

Godhead. He blesses his next disciple, just like Brahma. Brahma blesses his

next disciple, just like Narada. Narada blesses his next disciple, just like

Vyasa. Vyasa blesses his next disciple, Madhvacarya. Similarly, the blessing

is coming. Just like royal succession--the throne is inherited by disciplic

or hereditary succession--similarly, this power from the Supreme Personality

of Godhead has to receive. Nobody can preach, nobody can become a spiritual

master, without obtaining power from the right source. Therefore the very

word, it is stated here, praptasya. Praptasya means "one who has obtained."

Praptasya kalyana. What he has obtained? Kalyana. Kalyana means auspicity.

He has received something which is auspicious for all the human kind.

Praptasya kalyana-gunarnavasya. Here is another example. Gunarnava. Arnava

means ocean, and guna means spiritual qualities. Just like the same example

is going on. It is very nice poetry. There is nice rhethorics and metaphor.

The example is set, blazing fire, and it is to be extinguished with the

cloud. And wherefrom the cloud comes? Similarly, wherefrom the spiritual

master receives the mercy? The cloud receives his potency from the ocean.

Therefore the spiritual master also receives his power from the ocean of

spiritual quality, that is, from the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So

praptasya kalyana-gunarnavasya. Such kind of spiritual master, one has to

accept, and vande guroh sri-caranaravindam, and one has to offer his

respectful obeisances to such authorized spiritual master. (end)

 

710718RC.DET Conversations

Prabhupada: Yes. All of them will take over. These students, who are

initiated from me, all of them will act as I am doing. Just like I have got

many Godbrothers, they are all acting. Similarly, all these disciples which

I am making, initiating, they are being trained to become future spiritual

masters.

 

770415rc.bom Conversations

Prabhupada: "Like father, like son." You should be. Gaurangera bhakta...,

jane. Everyone. Therefore Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, amara ajnaya guru hana

tara' ei desa. He asked everyone, "Just become guru." Follow His

instruction. You become guru. Amara ajnaya. Don't manufacture ideas. Amara

ajnaya. "What I say, you do. You become a guru." Where is the

difficulty? "And what is Your ajna?" Yare dekha tare kaha krsna-upadesa.

Bas. Everything is there in the Bhagavad-gita. You simply repeat. That's

all. You become guru. To become a guru is not difficult job. Follow Caitanya

Mahaprabhu and speak what Krsna has said. Bas. You become guru.

 

750302BA.ATL Lectures

So you are hearing this philosophy daily. Try to understand more and more.

We have got so many books. And this is the mission of Caitanya Mahaprabhu

and, by disciplic succession, Bhaktivinoda Thakura, then my spiritual

master. Then we are trying our level best. Similarly, you will also try your

level best on the same principle. Then it will go on. Same principle. It

doesn't matter whether one is born in India or outside India. No. When

Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, prthivite ache yata nagaradi-grama, "As many towns

and cities and villages are there," He did not say it to make a farce. He is

the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So sometimes I am very much criticized

that I am making foreigners a brahmana. The caste brahmanas in India, they

are very much against me. But this is not fact. When Caitanya Mahaprabhu

said that all over the world His message will be broadcast, does it mean

that it will be simply a cinema show? No. He wanted that everyone should

become perfect Vaisnava. That is His purpose.

 

720518AR.LA Lectures

So we have got this message from Krsna, from Caitanya Mahaprabhu, from the

six Gosvamis, later on, Bhaktivinoda Thakura, Bhaktisiddhanta Thakura. And

we are trying our bit also to distribute this knowledge. Now, tenth,

eleventh, twelfth... My Guru Maharaja is tenth from Caitanya Mahaprabhu, I

am eleventh, you are the twelfth. So distribute this knowledge. People are

suffering. They are simply fighting on some false thing, maya. They should

be given the real fact of happiness.

 

68-12-03 Letter: Hamsaduta

Next January there will be an examination on this Bhagavad-gita. Papers will

be sent by me to all centers, and those securing the minimum passing grade

will be given the title as Bhakti-sastri. Similarly, another examination

will be held on Lord Caitanya's Appearance Day in February, 1970 and it will

be upon Srimad-Bhagavatam and Bhagavad-gita. Those passing will get the

title of Bhakti-vaibhava. Another examination will be held sometimes in 1971

on the four books, Bhagavad-gita, Srimad-Bhagavatam, Teachings of Lord

Caitanya, and Nectar of Devotion. One who will pass this examination will be

awarded with the title of Bhaktivedanta. I want that all of my spiritual

sons and daughters will inherit this title of Bhaktivedanta, so that the

family transcendental diploma will continue through the generations. Those

possessing the title of Bhaktivedanta will be allowed to initiate disciples.

Maybe by 1975, all of my disciples will be allowed to initiate and increase

the numbers of the generations. That is my program. So we should not simply

publish these books for reading by outsiders, but our students must be well

versed in all of our books so that we can be prepared to defeat all opposing

parties in the matter of self-realization.

*******************************************

 

On Mon, 8 May 2006 01:55:24 +0530, IRM wrote

> Dear Hector Prabhu,

>

> Hare Krishna!

>

> Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

>

> Prabhu, you really must stop doing this. Every time you are defeated,

> you simply evade your defeat by making some new point. If you wish

> to make yet ANOTHER point which was NOT made by you in your original

> challenge, which is what we are debating, I can discuss accepting it,

> but ONLY after you FIRST concede defeat on the actual challenge you

> already made to me. To re-cap, your challenge point 1, was that:

>

> " I will grant you that, given the axioms you have chosen, the conclusion

> would indeed follow logically. However, if we accept the argument

> as sound, then we must be able to apply the same reasoning to other

> cases. Let us apply it to the Gaudiya Matha. It is well known that

> ‘some’ of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura’s disciples acting

> as gurus fell, or at least did not show the purity expected of

> someone holding such a post. Therefore, if we apply your rule of

> “One guru falls = no Gurus authorised” and its reasoning, then we

> would be forced to conclude that Srila Prabhupada is not bonafide. I

> do not think neither you nor I are willing to accept that. Hence we

> must revise or abandon the argument altogether. It would be wise to

> do the latter."

>

> I just defeated this point of yours by demonstrating you have not

> been able to apply the above reasoning to the Gaudiya Matha.

>

> If you are humble and sincere enough to actually accept defeat on

> this point, rather than just trying to evade the defeat, we can

> consider your new challenge for proof 4 below.

>

> I even KNEW you would try and evade your defeat and HENCE I gave you

> the following warning:

>

> "Do not respond with methods of evasion like asking me further

> questions (they will simply go onto the end of the list), or any

> other unrelated verbiage, or complaining I have not answered

> something else, or been defeated by others etc. These things did not

> do you any good previously, nor will they help here. *Respond with

> anything short of the evidence requested above, and your challenge

> will still remain unproven, and I will simply keep pointing this out.*"

>

> We can only move onto new challenges once we have finished with the

> challenge you made to me and announced to the whole world on April

> 30th. If you concede defeat on this challenge point 1 (and if you

> wish you can withdraw the others), THEN we can discuss immediately

> answering your new challenge below. (as then it will not need to be

> added to the end of the list as challenge No. 10 as per the rules.)

>

> Thank you.

>

> I look forward to hearing from you.

>

> Your servant,

> Krishnakant

------- End of Forwarded Message -------

 

 

--

Héctor Rosario, Ph.D.

Assistant Professor

Department of Mathematics

University of Puerto Rico, Mayagüez Campus

PO Box 9018

Mayagüez, PR 00681