Beware of Kali's agents

[Guest guest]

Giri-nayaka Prabhu, since I and the GBC are the brunt of this text I feel I

should respond to it.

 

On ISKCON's use of PAMHO:

 

I would also like to see ISKCON have its own communication system, with its

own ISKCON friendly standards. PAMHO is a free forum and thus open to anyone

and anything.

 

On Satvatove and its founder:

 

Rtvik is as much a deviation as new age, and therefore both should be spoken

out against.

 

On your criticism of the GBC:

 

Everyone has a right to question ISKCON's leadership, at all levels. However

there is etiquette involved. That etiquette begins by making sure one

understand what is being said and why. Then it continues by submissively

questioning superiors and then giving one's opinion in a Vaisnava like way.

 

Unfortunately you don't seem to understand this process.

 

You made a wrong assumption: that some ISKCON leaders initially attended

Satvatove courses knowing they were new age psychology. Then you went off on

a tirade repeatedly maligning the GBC on a series of unrelated issues, still

based upon your initial mistake.

 

The fact is that leaders' initial attendance at Satvatove was based upon

Dhira Govinda's apparent good standing in ISKCON. His courses were

anticipated to be of the nature of the VIHE or MIHE. Not new age. I also

agree that we do not need new age self development processes. We need only

to present Krsna Consciousness as it is. That is what Sivarama Swami

believes. Take it from me.

 

You continued your attacked on the GBC based on this false premise, accused

their defence of ISKCON as being "political nonsense", and their emphasis on

KC as a "wave around with suddha bhakti".

 

When your mistake and excesses were later pointed out, all you could say was

"seems I got carried away a bit...I've done my part in this discussion." Why

do you not admit your mistake, retract your allegations, and apologize for

your audacity, and offensiveness. After all, it was you who wove a web of

phobia out of nothing.

 

Prabhuji, you may not fear åtviks' danger to your spiritual life. You need

not. You are already doing a good enough job of destroying it on your own. I

suggest you review the consciousness by which you write texts in the matter

that you do.

 

I remain your ever well-wisher in the service of Srila Prabhupada.

Sivarama Swami

 

 

*> > I personally don't like this "X (All PAMHO users)" conference. I would

*> > rather prefer to remove it completely.

*>

*> imho, "X(All PAMHO users" is a very useful conference and should be

*> continued although the "qualification" for posting texts there may need

*> to be reviwed.

*>

*

*The name itself, "X (All PAMHO users)", includes all PAMHO users. Of course

*this need not mean, that all can post in X, but all are exposed to reading

*it. By PAMHO membership extending beyond ISKCON, this means that X

*conference becomes very sensitive point. Of course, one could limit posting

*to "ISKCON bonafide" only (whatever that is), but what will all those

*non-ISKCON pamho members think of this. Like ISKCON can post anything, and

*X must read it, but if others want to post anything, then ISKCON can

*complain? Besides, who will decide what is bonafide and what is not? ISKCON

*will enforce its own standard, and others on PAMHO are forced to follow it?

*

*Proper action for ISKCON would be not to demand, but to create ISKCON-only

*communication system, and there everybody can be censured and repressed as

*much as needed, and thus nobody has to (can?) read any nonsense and need to

*complain about it.

*

*Like Ramakanta Prabhu mentioned that, "In 2000 the GBC set up an email

*service for ISKCON. I don't know what happened with that." I hope Lilasuka

*Prabhu can comment a bit on this, or maybe ask somebody in charge of this

*project to comment. Is PAMHO still supposed to provide bonafide-ISKCON

*level of communication and understanding? Or are we all expecting too much

*from this system, and should just get used to the fact we cannot have

*pure-ISKCON system of communication? Will GBC try to set rules for PAMHO?

*Will GBC create separate, ISKCON system for communication, so we can reduce

*our expectations about PAMHO? What is the plan of GBC regarding this?

*

*your servant Giri-nayaka das

*

*PS. Sorry for all these questions. But this subject called "Beware of

*Kali's agents" is quite disturbing to me. Already original post was

*disturbing, but reply was not pacifying either. I thought original post by

*Haridhama Prabhu was nonsense, not because of current ISKCON's political

*view against ritvikism, but because of "development courses" and all the

*"inner Vaisnava" innovation nonsense.

*

*It was interesting for me to read Sivarama Maharaja saying, that "There is

*only one way, and that is via the process of Krishna consciousness, sadhana

*bhakti. And such a process is only successful when conducted under the

*direction of a bonafide spiritual master." This is nectar, and I was hoping

*for such pure statement.

*

*But after reading on, something else came out. Sivarama Maharaja said: "As

*far as ISKCON leaders attending Satvatove courses, this is a misnomer.

*Prior to understanding that Dhira Govinda's courses were in fact a ruse to

*promote his ritvik-vada philosophy, some ISKCON devotees--including

*leaders--attended the courses. That ISKCON's leaders are keen to embrace

*processes constructed on the basis Srila Prabhupada's teachings is a sign

*of healthy leadership, and one that many devotees appreciated and emulated.

*However, it wasn't long before the truth was realized: Dr. David was the

*proverbial Wolf in sheep's clothing."

*

*It became clear, that actual problem is not in new-age-ish course itself.

*Problem was not in the method, but the problem was in ritvik-ism of

*Satvatove leader. Untill Satvatove were considered ISKCON-bonafide, leaders

*were going there. Nobody thought, that it is nonsense, and that we have our

*sadhana-bhakti, and no need to practice some new-age stuff. Actually,

*leaders considered, that Satvatove was most valuable, and they saw it as

*process "constructed on the basis Srila Prabhupada's teachings". Such mood

*was considered as "a sign of healthy leadership". Satvatove was providing

*process, that "many devotees appreciated and emulated". But it all changed,

*after ritvik invention, after realizing "Dr. David was the proverbial Wolf

*in sheep's clothing."

*

*Now, is sadhana bhakti the only way, or not? Protecting your own

*institution.... In good or in bad, forever....

 

*So, it is disturbing and misleading to first read, that we do not need any

*new-age selfgrowth processes besides sadhana-bhakti, and later on realize,

*that it is just nice words. If Haridhama was not labeled as ritvik, his

*institute would still be most bonafade, and all ISKCON leaders would be

*rushing there for develloping "inner vaisnava". But because he is labeled

*as ritvik, now immediately we do not need anything besides pure

*sadhana-bhakti..... Such mood is to me even more disturbing than Satvatove

*speculations.

*

*Sorry for all those hard words, but I needed to say these things. It is

*just not fair to wave arround with suddha-bhakti and how we do not need any

*new-age stuff in ISKCON, while actually behind it all is politics and

*paranoid fear of current ISKCON leaders against ritvik invention.

*

*It is sad to see all this fear against ritviks, while at the same time all

*nonsense karmi methods (polarity managment, mediations, ombuds...) are

*invented without any fear or discretion. What is the threat of ritviks? To

*me, none. To most devotees, ritviks are no threat at all. But to leaders,

*gurus, GBC.... oh, thats another thing. But on the other side, all those

*GBC-invented karmi managereal inventions are serious threat to us all,

*because they root us again back in karmi managment system of political

*cooperation, in system of exploitation for sense enjoyment. But thats ok,

*ISKCON leaders don't mind putting this nonsense on us, injecting it in our

*brain as bonafide, and engaging us in begging at the feet of politics,

*journalists and human-rights protectors, when they are unable to solve

*certain problem caused to their followers by some 3rd world government. We

*are instructed to go to karmis, and beg for their mercy, and we foolishly

*do it, we buy it. Thats how we are instructed to proove our unity before

*Srila Prabhupada. But ritviks, they are worst kind of demons or something,

*and if one wants to be bonafide-ISKCON-devotee, then he must condemn them

*and curse them and always criticize them like anything.

*

*This is all some political nonsense, a carrot in front of nose of masses,

*to engage their critical nature in some remote direction, and keep it away

*from other certain direction.... Make others look bad, so that we come out

*great... But karmis and their methods are not so bad after-all, is it....?

*Put down devotees, cooperate with karmis.... where is this thing going?

*

*Anyway, I've said enough. Although I could say more. And I may in the

*future. I wonder if anybody sees things similarly to how I see it. Speak

*up, please!

*

*your servant Giri-nayaka das