Sidereal/Tropical, By Their Fruits.....

[Guest guest]

Curt:

 

>

>

>Okay, Robert Hand, Lee Lehman, Joseph Crane, Robert Zollar......Greats, but

>stuck in the tropical miasma, trying to prove to each other its validity.

>Make no doubt about it, the tropical zodiac works, but it works only good

>enough to get by.

 

I saw this parade of tropical 'stars' and thought I'd relate a story. I

recently had the pleasure of hearing Robert Zoller speak. As you may know,

his speciality is medieval (western) astrology. His talk on this occasion

was on the way one particularly prominent 12th century Italian astrologer,

Guido Bonatti, would go about predicting children. As a former

western/tropical astrologer who has come over to the other side

(sidereal/jyotish), I was very interested to hear him attempt a bonafide

predictive analysis of different horoscopes. This was so refreshing from

the usual western psycho-babble one has to put up with (and sure, some of

it is helpful and insightful, but not really predictive in and of itself).

That reflected the way western astrology *used* to be practiced.

Rulerships were important to Zoller's analysis, although the 5th was only

one of several houses considered. In general, his approach was quite

complex and at times hard to follow. Zoller also offered his own chart to

elaborate his points. As he is childless (and over 50 and happily

married), he demonstrated the afflictions and weaknesses in his chart using

Bonatti's methods. The strange thing was, when you looked at Zoller's

chart sidereally using basic jyotish (or just plain basic astrology), you

could see a very weak 5th house and 5th lord. When I went up to him after

the talk, I asked about the sidereal zodiac and whether or not it was used

by Bonatti and his contemporaries. Here, it is noteworthy that Bonatti

himself borrowed *heavily* from arabic astrologers. Zoller replied that

Bonatti most likely didn't use the sidereal zodiac but, yes, the Arabs may

have. Well, I offered, why don't you use it? "Just habit" -- or words to

that effect. The guy was in a crowd and didn't have a lot of time to

reflect. Then I suggested that his own childlessness could be read quite

easily using the sidereal zodiac and showed him how; he said sure, but

that's only one horoscope. Agreed. There's always more cases that need

considering before a sound judgement can be made.

 

This is not in any way a put down of Zoller and the other

neo-traditionalists (well put). I have a lot of respect for his learning

and he's quite a likeable fellow. It's a shame that more western/tropical

astrologers are not as well educated and interested in the classical

foundations of astrological thought. My point is that this zodiac

difference is an intractable one that often defies rational explanation.

It may well be a waste of time to argue about it, and yet it isn't: why am

I here on this list? Because I used to do western astrology until I

realized it didn't work, or at least well enough. It was important to have

another alternative. Having said that, I don't know that I would have been

persuaded by discussions such as this. In the end, I found out for myself

using charts that I knew well and made up my own mind.

 

>

>However, all during the "dark ages" of western astrology the flame of

>Jyotish burned brightly in the east. Jyotish is an unbroken tradition from

>time immemorial, which is about as good as one can ask for. Why stick with

>such a hobbled (western) system? Just don't want to give the security of

>one's roots? If those roots were in error, I, for one, would pick up and

>seek the truth elsewhere. This is why I have jumped ship, as it were.

>

>I have for about the last 7 years tried to work with the new

>neo-traditionalist movement. They are just so slow. To be frank, it just

>seems they can't get their act together. Would co-dependent people stick

>with a system that is inferior.

 

I have wondered about this too: why intelligent, capable people would stick

with it? I think a preference for things European has something to do with

it, I also think they've put in too much time and energy to change now.

And, it must be added, some of their techniques DO work and don't have

equivalents in jyotish. No need to discard those.

 

 

>

>I, obviously, am painting in emotionally tinged broad brushes, and being not

>a little bit judgmental. As I have said, there is gold to be mined from the

>astrologers of the ancient west....but, is it all worth it?

>

>The point of astrology is not to make a sound intellectual point. The point

>of astrology is to use techniques that WORK to help people with their pain

>now. It is a no-brainer that if Jyotish has the unbroken clean tradition

>(more or less) and has a better track record, and is SPIRITUAL, that one

>should go with it and drop the old hopeless past.

 

This is a good point that I think actually supports the retention of an

inferior western system. I respect your choice of Hindu spiritual values

Curt, but I for one, have adopted the logical system of jyotish only. I am

not particularly enamoured with jyotish's spiritual accoutrements. Nor, I

must say, are the people I run into each day. This has real consequences

when it comes to suggesting "remedial measures". This is an ongoing

problem with "adapting" jyotish to the West. People here don't know much

about mantras and for the most part aren't likely to chant them. Nor are

they likely to wear gems. Indeed, many don't want to think in terms of the

inherent fatalism that jyotish assumes (apologies to Hart DeFouw). It's a

thorny question, and it's one I'm always dancing around. The West is a

free will culture. That's likely why western astrology abandoned its

predictive ship earlier this century: all those middle class people on the

make could no longer accept destiny foretold. The American dream was

democratic and open for all. 'Who are YOU, oh wise one, to tell me that my

finances look poor in the next 17-year (!) dasha period!' No wonder

western astrologers latched onto the emergent paradigm of psychoanalysis to

revive their sagging fortunes. So it's somewhat understandable why some

westerners want to hold on to a paradigm of astrology that doesn't offend

the sensibilities of most of their perspective clients.

 

Just out of curiosity, Curt, at what point did you start to realize that

the tropical zodiac may not be all it was cracked up to be and that jyotish

maybe offered something 'new and improved'?

 

best wishes,

 

Chris

 

 

>

>It is EXACTLY like orthodox religion compared with real spiritual

>disciplines. Western-tropical is the former and Vedic-Jyotish is the later.

>I do not want to go on and on with this because I seem to get a little

>"emotional" about this.

>

>But, just as if to illustrate itself, the other day I received a shipment of

>astrological journals about western traditional astrology. It was 3 months

>late! Not only that, but they were the wrong items! Do they have their act

>together? Does this episode belie even greater problems with the whole

>western tropical tradition?

>

>I do wax Biblical a lot, and it says there that we will know who the true

>and untrue are: "...By their fruits ye shall know them."

>

>

>Mu

>--- Curtis Burns <curtisburns wrote:

>> Here is my thoughts at the present time. Firstly, I

>> have been a tropicalist

>> determined mostly by my cultural upbringing, that

>> is, tropical/western was

>> all I had. I worked it pretty good. I worked

>> mostly with aspects and

>> midpoints, signs and houses came in later as I

>> followed the finding of

>> Project Hindsight and began to delve into horary.

>>

>> I found it (tropical signs and rulerships) worked,

>> but never as brilliantly

>> as when I seriously started to consider sidereal

>> placements. I find myself

>> now caught between two worlds: tropical/western and

>> sidereal/vedic.

>>

>> Seeing as I am now embarking on a major internet

>> astrology

>> magazine/newspaper, it will be interesting to see

>> how I deal with this

>> seeming dichotomy of astrologies. In delving into

>> the lore of ancient

>> western I find an art very much alive with symbolism

>> unique and deeply true.

>> However, it is still of a house perspective and not

>> signs.

>>

>> The point I really want to get to here is: IS THE

>> WEST SCREWED UP OR WHAT!?

>>

>> The neo-traditionalists are going places but they

>> are seemingly a

>> handicapped bunch. They party, they drink, they

>> argue. They are more or

>> less just intellectualists which says almost nothing

>> as far as the ability

>> to perceive truth. They have a lot of baggage and

>> are like blind men with

>> very dark colored rose-colored glasses (I just did a

>> 'Das-ism'

>>

>> So are they screwed up? Well yes. They are not

>> truly spiritually

>> disciplined. There are exceptions to every rule of

>> course. Still, there is

>> no strong spiritual hard work--giving up of the ego

>> and the ego's pet wounds

>> and "bags".

>>

>> Western astrology is good but it is very

>> materialistic. Why? There is no

>> clearly defined difference between good and bad or

>> illusion and truth. To

>> the west the 8th, 12th and 6th house could be viewed

>> as entirely "okay",

>> whereas in the east those houses are clearly "bad"

>> Why? because they are the

>> houses of KARMA, wrong sowings.

>>

>> To a materialist, because everything is defined by

>> what one sees, anything

>> goes. There is no higher authority, no higher

>> perspective changing the

>> equation, that calls upon one to exercise spiritual

>> strength or character in

>> the face of seeming good mayic things or situations.

>>

>> One needs to be very devout to God in order to be an

>> astrologer, otherwise

>> you are just babbling. Being devout to God cannot

>> be a just a well

>> intentioned optimistic outlook on things, it

>> requires hard choices and in

>> many ways being in enmity with the ways of the

>> world.

>>

>> SO, are the western astrologer screwed up? Yes!

>> Will the

>> neo-traditionalists get their act together? Don't

>> hold your breath waiting.

>> Have the sidereals got it right since the beginning?

>> I would say, YES!!

>>

>> __________

>> Curtis Burns

>> 3800 Elliot Ave

>> Minneapolis, MN 55407

>> PH/FX 612-823-9104

>>

>> Website:

>> http://www.globalpersonalvictory.com

>>

>> webmaster

>> or,

>> curtisburns

>>

>>

>>

>

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[Guest guest]

Just out of curiosity, Curt, at what point did you start to realize that

the tropical zodiac may not be all it was cracked up to be and that Jyotish

maybe offered something 'new and improved'?

 

Well it has been relatively recently. I can't pinpoint one definitive event

that broke the camel's back as it were. I could only say my continually

building frustration with the neo-traditionalists, my finally being able to

"get" how to interpret planetary periods (using initially ancient western

firdaria), and my testing out on some friends and myself to issues which

were never really adequately explained by western tropical.

 

It was also a discussion about the virtues of Jyotish by Robert Hand and

Robert Zollar themselves. My initial thought was "Duh?!, If the system is

so good, why not just go with it?"

 

Apparently they have to resurrect western astrology back to its initial

glories--then figure out what REALLY DOES WORK of the old systems and

modernize them. I believe that in itself is hopeless because most of the

ancient texts themselves are irretrievably destroyed and one could only

perhaps resurrect a part of the glory. Then it would take hundreds possibly

thousands of years to reestablish a lore and tradition like Jyotish. But

Jyotish and western tropical are the same thing anyway!!--basically.

 

So it must have been that I have reached the point in my life where I need

to make the real real. The western tropicallists are seeking to validate

historical values at the expense of being able to adequately help real

people now.

 

I am sure I am making a point somehow here, and I just can't condemn western

tropicalists so absolutely but I am making a distinction between

intellectualism and the more truly spiritual roots (as I see it) of

astrology. One makes the transition to Jyotish because of inner conviction

to the truth of his or her findings, and not because it will conflict with

the western paradigm and subsequently put one at a distance with one's

friends on the points of astrology. I suppose a lot of astrologers fear to

make that changeover because then they will not be able to contribute to

magazines and contribute to the popular steam that is astrology in the west.

 

I always find myself going back to the analogy of orthodox religion and more

serious spiritual disciplines: when you make the changeover, as we all have,

one puts oneself at odds with what is popular. Some people are not that

secure in their convictions to do that -- including some western

astrologers -- who are human, after all.

 

Curtis Burns Aries Astrologer, but now Pisces

(well at least my Moon is in Aries now!!)

[Guest guest]

Hi Manas

 

Many western "scholars" claim that astrology started in Babilonia and spread

to other parts of the globe. There are also claims that humans are coming

from monkeys. As far as we are concern as vedic astrologers is the fact that

in the Puranas and other vedic books there is evidence that vedic astrology

was in practice at least 5000 years ago. In the Srimad Bhagavatam, we read

how Garga Muni calculated and read the horoscope of Krishna more than 5000

years ago. We hear that electional astrology was also in practice around the

time of the Kuruksetra War. And we can even go further back with the casting

of the horoscope of Lord Ramachandra. Our modern computers can't yet

calculate the positions of the planets for Lord Rama's horoscope because our

present knowledge of planetary algorrithms is still young. Let them think

what they want, new developments in archeology and astronomy will give the

truth as told by the Vedas.

 

Natabara das

[Guest guest]

Hi Chris

 

Your email to Curt is very interesting. I have not heard of the 12th century

Italian astrologer, Guido Bonatti, but it looks interesting. If we have a

look at history we can understand the socio-politic and economic trends of

the 12th century.

 

1066 AD Norman conquest of England.

1096 First Crusade.

1099 Jerusalem is taken, and Godfroi de Bouillon becomes king.

1100 Toltecs build their capital at Tula. First universities in

Europe, Salerno (medicine), Bologna (law), Paris (theology and philosophy).

1120 Foundation of the Templar Order.

1129 Hughes de Payens becomes the first Templar Grand Master.

1146 Templars adopt the 'Rose Cross' as their symbol.

1150 Angkor Wat (in Cambodia) the biggest Temple to Visnu, is

built. Although new discoveries indicates that the foundations of this

temple were built around 10 500 BC. to represent the constellation of Draco,

when at the same time the Sphinx in now Egypt was built to see the rising of

the sidereal sign of Leo.

1154 Chartres Cathedral begun. Gothic architecture in expansion.

 

Starting in the 11th century, we see the Norman conquest of England, the

beginning of the Crusades and the conquest of Jerusalem. Those historical

factors helped to mould the 12th century in Europe. The 12th century saw the

re-surgence of secret societies, which had the secret knowledge of astrology,

alchemy etc. Even if western astrologers got the knowledge from Arabs and

the East at that time, the political mode was against them and therefore they

could not talk about the source of their knowledge. Further findings may

gave us a more clear picture. It seems to me that Europe closed the doors to

the East and any knowledge coming from there was forbidden or dangerous to

have.

 

You quoted Curt

<<The point of astrology is not to make a sound intellectual point. The point

>of astrology is to use techniques that WORK to help people with their pain

>now. It is a no-brainer that if Jyotish has the unbroken clean tradition

>(more or less) and has a better track record, and is SPIRITUAL, that one

>should go with it and drop the old hopeless past.

 

And you wrote

<<This is a good point that I think actually supports the retention of an

inferior western system. I respect your choice of Hindu spiritual values

Curt, but I for one, have adopted the logical system of jyotish only. I am

not particularly enamoured with jyotish's spiritual accoutrements.

 

Well Chris, i want to clarify this point. First of all the Hindu spiritual

values are based on the Vedas and Vedic astrology is based on the Vedas.

There are three main paths in vedic astrology, basically the path of jnana or

phenomenal knowledge and the path of bhakti or devotional knowledge.

According to our nature, we follow either of those paths. I am not intending

to offend you, or say that you are in the inferior path, but the way you talk

tells me that you like to follow the path of jnana or phenomenal knowledge.

Many people like you like to follow the scientific path, which uses reason

and logic and that is good because you can go deep into the logic of matter

and if that path suits you, that is ok, i am sure that you are intelligent

and you can gather information on that level and give us some positive

information later on. On the other hand, there is the path of devotion, from

were we learn that the jyotish's spiritual accoutrements are nice. You may

not be interested in this aspect of jyotish but it is working well for its

followers. Then we have the union of both paths which is more complete.

Logic or science without devotion is only dry philosophy and devotion without

logic or science is only fanaticism. We as atrologers are supposed to

balance both paths in order to understand this cosmic manifestation and the

rules of jyotish. Maybe you are not particularly enamoured with the

jyotish's spiritual accoutrements because you have not being exposed to the

science of it. But the time may come when a spark of inspiration within

yourself will ignite your undertanding of this aspect of jyotish.

 

Then you say

<<Nor, I must say, are the people I run into each day. This has real

consequences

when it comes to suggesting "remedial measures". This is an ongoing

problem with "adapting" jyotish to the West. People here don't know much

about mantras and for the most part aren't likely to chant them. Nor are

they likely to wear gems. >>

 

Chris, in my personal experience of many years i come accross with people of

all religions and even without religion but i do not advise them to shave

their heads and join a Bhudist temple. I know that they are not prepared for

that. We as astrologers are supposed to give advise according to time, age

and circumstances. The other day i came accross with a Catholic lady and i

ask her about her position in her religion and told me that she is a Catholic

but since her First Communion, she does not go to Church, but that she prays

on her beads everyday. I told her to pray according to her religion in order

to help her mind to cope with some "planetary shadows" and she understood.

To those that do not pray or like mantras, i deal with them accordingly. To

those that like gems or do not like gems i also have advise according to

their nature and taste. We are not hear to impose a culture but to help

accordingly.

 

You wrote

<<Indeed, many don't want to think in terms of the

inherent fatalism that jyotish assumes (apologies to Hart DeFouw). It's a

thorny question, and it's one I'm always dancing around. The West is a

free will culture. That's likely why western astrology abandoned its

predictive ship earlier this century: all those middle class people on the

make could no longer accept destiny foretold.>>

 

If i understand, you are talking about Free will and Destiny. Many of us get

confuse in the beginning about this polarity and i like to explain to people

with simple versions. Imagine a bull attached with a rope on his nose to a

pole in a field. The bull has as much Free will to move as far as the lenght

of the rope allows. The lenght of the rope is his destiny marked by the

karma of his previous lives. The West may have a free culture but that is

only an illusion. Do you think that you are free because you have some bucks

to spend, have you studied the economical implications in this materialistic

society? Where the central banks in every country runs the show? Where supply

and demand is manipulated by a few?. Do your homework and reassess your

thinking of freedom. Real freedom does not belong to this materialistic

level, which is under the control of illusion. Real freedom is in higher

realms to which our soul belongs.

 

You say

<<The American dream was

democratic and open for all. 'Who are YOU, oh wise one, to tell me that my

finances look poor in the next 17-year (!) dasha period!' No wonder

western astrologers latched onto the emergent paradigm of psychoanalysis to

revive their sagging fortunes. So it's somewhat understandable why some

westerners want to hold on to a paradigm of astrology that doesn't offend

the sensibilities of most of their perspective clients.>>

 

Yes, it was a dream, or you still believe that we are in a democratic system?

where the screening within a political party chooses nice faces to attract

the votes of the people, for the people? The vedic approach is to prepare

real administrators that can serve the welfare of the citizens. In vedic

times, the ruler was responsible even for the weather. The king was prepared

by highly qualified brahmans since childhood to understand gross and sutil

energies within himself and out in order to direct them towards a positive

goal and to protect the citizens. And regarding your sarcastic comment about

Mercury dasa, have you heard that vedic astrology is a science of tendencies?

If i tell you that the street lights are red, would you dare to cross? or,

would you stop for a while and wait for the green light to come?. If your

"finances look poor in the next 17-year (!) dasha period! " i would recommend

to you some measures and common sense to cope with the "bad weather", it is

not neccesarly that it is going to be bad. There are many factors to

consider and one of them is the mercy from higher levels.

 

Not offenses intended, just some clarification on behalf of vedic astrology.

Thank you for listening.

 

Natabara das

[Guest guest]

Dear Natabara:

 

At 04:09 PM 7/16/00 EDT, you wrote:

>Hi Chris

>

>Your email to Curt is very interesting. I have not heard of the 12th

century

>Italian astrologer, Guido Bonatti, but it looks interesting. If we have a

>look at history we can understand the socio-politic and economic trends of

>the 12th century.

>

 

Just to correct the record: Bonatti lived during the 13th century. All

apologies.

 

 

>Many people like you like to follow the scientific path, which uses reason

>and logic and that is good because you can go deep into the logic of matter

>and if that path suits you, that is ok, i am sure that you are intelligent

>and you can gather information on that level and give us some positive

>information later on. On the other hand, there is the path of devotion,

from

>were we learn that the jyotish's spiritual accoutrements are nice. You may

>not be interested in this aspect of jyotish but it is working well for its

>followers. Then we have the union of both paths which is more complete.

>Logic or science without devotion is only dry philosophy and devotion

without

>logic or science is only fanaticism. We as atrologers are supposed to

>balance both paths in order to understand this cosmic manifestation and the

>rules of jyotish.

 

Well put. I don't disagree. I'm just a jnana kind of guy I guess. It's

in my chart! :-)

 

>

>You wrote

><<Indeed, many don't want to think in terms of the

>inherent fatalism that jyotish assumes (apologies to Hart DeFouw). It's a

>thorny question, and it's one I'm always dancing around. The West is a

>free will culture. That's likely why western astrology abandoned its

>predictive ship earlier this century: all those middle class people on the

>make could no longer accept destiny foretold.>>

>

>If i understand, you are talking about Free will and Destiny. Many of us

get

>confuse in the beginning about this polarity and i like to explain to people

>with simple versions. Imagine a bull attached with a rope on his nose to a

>pole in a field. The bull has as much Free will to move as far as the

lenght

>of the rope allows. The lenght of the rope is his destiny marked by the

>karma of his previous lives. The West may have a free culture but that is

>only an illusion. Do you think that you are free because you have some

bucks

>to spend, have you studied the economical implications in this materialistic

>society? Where the central banks in every country runs the show? Where

supply

>and demand is manipulated by a few?. Do your homework and reassess your

>thinking of freedom.

 

I think you mistake my rhetorical approach for my own thoughts on the

matter. Obviously, as an astrologer, I don't believe in free will as its

commonly understood by the average person. I was merely thinking as a

middle class westerner would and thus explaining why a more fatalistic

approach wouldn't be palatable to them any longer in this century.

 

 

>You say

><<The American dream was

>democratic and open for all. 'Who are YOU, oh wise one, to tell me that my

>finances look poor in the next 17-year (!) dasha period!' No wonder

>western astrologers latched onto the emergent paradigm of psychoanalysis to

>revive their sagging fortunes. So it's somewhat understandable why some

>westerners want to hold on to a paradigm of astrology that doesn't offend

>the sensibilities of most of their perspective clients.>>

>

>Yes, it was a dream, or you still believe that we are in a democratic

system?

>where the screening within a political party chooses nice faces to attract

>the votes of the people, for the people? The vedic approach is to prepare

>real administrators that can serve the welfare of the citizens.

 

Now there's a scary proposition! Astrologers running the country. I am

under no illusion as to the level of real democracy in the West. Obviously

it's imperfect at best. It's far better described as a system of

conditional democracy whereby elites permit choice between approved

candidates and all bets are off if the economy takes a downturn. But a

return to some sort of enlightened theocracy run by astrologers is surely

worse, where the possibility for abuse is far greater than the rule of law.

 

In vedic

>times, the ruler was responsible even for the weather. The king was

prepared

>by highly qualified brahmans since childhood to understand gross and sutil

>energies within himself and out in order to direct them towards a positive

>goal and to protect the citizens. And regarding your sarcastic comment

about

>Mercury dasa, have you heard that vedic astrology is a science of

tendencies?

> If i tell you that the street lights are red, would you dare to cross? or,

>would you stop for a while and wait for the green light to come?. If your

>"finances look poor in the next 17-year (!) dasha period! " i would

recommend

>to you some measures and common sense to cope with the "bad weather", it is

>not neccesarly that it is going to be bad. There are many factors to

>consider and one of them is the mercy from higher levels.

 

Still, clients know when you're predicting 'bad weather', no matter how

many coping tools you can offer them. Some folks don't like that kind of

disappointment. So it's not really a sarcastic comment, it's just the way

some people take bad (or should I say: less than great) news: badly!

 

Chris

[Guest guest]

Dear Christopher

 

Thanks x your email

 

You wrote

<<Just to correct the record: Bonatti lived during the 13th century. All

apologies.>>

 

I think that it gets more interesting because it is in line with the Cathars.

The 13th century saw the destruction of the Cathar religion & it was a

century of repression. Do you have the date of birth or the horoscope of

Bonatti? Although in Italy the repression was not too evident, i imagine

that astrologers in that country were very cautious.

 

You wrote

<<Well put. I don't disagree. I'm just a jnana kind of guy I guess. It's

in my chart! :-)>>

 

Yes, it is in your chart that you are a "jnana kind of guy", like me. We

like to gather information about the phenomenal world. I can not help it, it

is in my nature, i am curious and i explore. Sometimes i collect rubish &

sometimes i collect gems, sometimes a gem takes me to another gem and when

this happens, i get a better picture of the jig-saw of life. But you are

also a bhakti kind of guy, like me. I have like 1% bakti and 99% jnana, i

have that mixture in that proportion & i try to increase bhakti but the other

side of my nature does not allow that to happen. It is also in your chart

and you may have come accross with it under another name. Bhakti is

affection, affection and care for others, that is why we become attracted to

astrology, to help others. When that spark of goodness increases, we

increase our affection to a greater diametre, and the more our affection, the

greater the goodness in us. We are not masters to have 50% or 100% bhakti,

we are so fallen in Kali Yuga. Bhakti is in every religion and even those

people that claim not to have a religion but have affection & respect for

others, they have bhakti in some degree. I heard of a tramp that does not go

to church and does not profess any religion, but he is ready to fast if some

of his friends are hungry and if someone feels cold, he is ready to give his

coat away. That is the inherent nature of the soul, to sacrifice himself for

others, to help others, to be kind and nice to others. That tramp care more

about others than many priests. All that is the essence of every religion,

that is dharma, duty. The jyotish's spiritual accoutrements are not only

Hindu, every religion has the same essence.

 

You wrote

<>

 

My profuse apologies Christopher, yes i think that i made a mistake, it must

have been the effects of Mercury retro.

 

You wrote

 

<<Now there's a scary proposition! Astrologers running the country. I am

under no illusion as to the level of real democracy in the West. Obviously

it's imperfect at best. It's far better described as a system of

conditional democracy whereby elites permit choice between approved

candidates and all bets are off if the economy takes a downturn. But a

return to some sort of enlightened theocracy run by astrologers is surely

worse, where the possibility for abuse is far greater than the rule of law.>>

 

Christopher, you have a nice sense of humour, are you Sagittarius? Can we

imagine, astrologers running the country? No exactly. Just like we have the

need for good administrators, we also have the need for good brahmans.

Although a brahman can be an astrologer, an astrologer may find difficulties

in being a brahman. Then again, according to the vedas, society should be

divided in sudras (workers), which are like the legs of the society; vaisyas

(business people, farmers), which are like the stomach of society

distribuiting food to all parts of the body; ksatriyas (administrators,

soldiers), which are like the arms to defend society; and brahmans (priests,

teachers, intellectuals), which are like the head of society. A society

without legs can not walk and without any of the other members can not

survive. This means that we are suppose to co-operate with each other. As

usual there is always the risk of exploitation by those in power like we have

seen it in the past & in the present in different countries and institutions.

The brahmans are not qualified to rule, only to advise the rulers but they

are suppose to keep an eye on them and do the neccesary when there is

corruption or explotation.

 

You wrote

<<Still, clients know when you're predicting 'bad weather', no matter how

many coping tools you can offer them. Some folks don't like that kind of

disappointment.>>

 

Yes, you are right, some folks like to hear only the good trends and we have

to cope with that as well. Sometimes is difficult to be an astrologer, but i

guess that that is our karma to pay for being close to a wonderful science.

And the bigger the desire, the bigger their disappointment and that is their

test to pass in this life in order to cross to the next chapter. They hold

themselves to their dreams because that is how they have learn to survive.

We can not do their homework.

 

You wrote

<<So it's not really a sarcastic comment, it's just the way

some people take bad (or should I say: less than great) news: badly!

 

Well, it is a sarcasm from people. Have you seen them as badly as that?

Maybe is in my karma but i have not seen them so bad. I have seen other

cases, which although of a different nature, their intensity is heavy as

well. Every country has a different "weather" and according to the clouds we

find the fauna & flora to be diverse. Now that you gave me the key, you

sentence becomes more clear and i am trying to digest it. That is

interesting news and it makes sense. You are living the dream. Please keep

describing i am all ears.

 

Natabara das