Srila Prabhupada's lagna

[Guest guest]

Dear members of the list.

 

Regarding the issue about Srila Prabhupada's lagna i have with me some

interesting info.

 

>From the Gouranga Public Communications, Newsletter 6.

 

Patita Pavana Das Adhikari used to publish it and issue # 6 came out on 15 Dec

1984. In it Patita Pavana describes the horoscope of Srila Prabhupada and

comments that "Upon examining the chart with the tighest scrutiny one pandit

wondered, "These planets are so perfect, it is a marvel how Bhaktivedanta Swami

could even have come to this imperfect world."" Then he gives the data of birth

as Sep 1 1896; Calcutta early p.m. (about 15:15).

 

Patita Pavana told me that he had a personal association with Srila Prabhupada

and that Prabhupada himself said to him that his horoscope has Moon and Mars in

the 6th house in Taurus, making the lagna Sagittarius.

 

In the Brihat Parasara Hora Sastra translated by R. Santhanam page 231, the same

horoscope is given as for 15:30 again with Sagittarius lagna. I would say that

Sagittarius lagna is the correct one.

 

Natabara das

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

With all due respect Robert,

I do think you're rationalising Sagittarius Lagna because this is what you WANT

it to be. The most important fact at hand is that Sri Prabhupada himself

acknowledged Capricorn to be the lagna of his chart. It seems somewhat

presumptuous (to me) that his disciples should decide, after he's gone, that he

and his astrologers were wrong......

 

Das Wrote:

>>>Prabhupada himself accepted Capricorn Lagna at least tacitly, in that, all

his life the Horoscope used for him by his astrologers in India was Capricorn

Lagna.<<<

 

The principal that Doctors should not treat those they're emotionally attached

to applies equally to Astrologers as it can be very difficult to remain

objective...the intellect does it's job of justifying our belief extremely well!

This (unfortunately) can be the greatest downfall of Astrologers :-)

BTW I think you have to go back (at least) to 15.06 to get Sagittarius...15.30

(as you advocate) will still give Capricorn. But regardless of that, let's try

to look at the two possibilities in an unbiased fashion.

 

One of your greatest objections to Capricorn lagna is the placement of Rahu in

2nd; I, on the other hand, see this placement (without prejudice) as entirely

descriptive of Prabhupada. One thing we can all say is that he was not

soft-spoken...his speech was strong, powerful, direct and compelling; nothing

meek and mild about his speech at all. He often came across as stern, strict and

unrelenting...anyone who heard him talk can vouch for that, I can vouch for

that! This is entirely in keeping with 2nd house lorded by Saturn and tenanted

by Rahu....

 

But is this the long and short of it? Is this all we can say about Prabhupada's

speech?

 

Of course it's not! Most important to consider is the aspect of moksha lord

Jupiter. Scripture states that Rahu loses his evil tendencies when aspected by

this divine planet. Please bear in mind that Rahu is also aspected by moksha

lord Sun (Soul); and both Sun and Jupiter are in the company of moksha karaka

Ketu...what does this tell you?

 

We all know (or should) that we cannot judge speech without considering the

significator of speech.....

Mercury's dignity and placement has a direct bearing on our speech...surely you

haven't forgotten that!

What to make then of Mercury, planet of speech, planet of intellect, exalted in

9th house and conjunct yogakaraka Venus who is enjoying neecha bhanga yoga in

this divine 9th house.

[And let's just pause to consider this position of Venus in regards to comforts,

luxuries, spouse etc; Mercury is very much the master in this house, is enjoying

exaltation, is in the highest degree...this denotes that the intellect and

speech, as well as affairs of 9th house take precedence over the significations

of Venus.]

 

How (I ask you) can a person with Jupiter aspecting house of speech whilst

significator of speech is exalted in 9th, be described in this way........

 

You Wrote:

>>>Rahu in the 2nd house represents deceptive or

dishonorable speech or lack of integrity in the matter of speech<<<

 

There is no doubt that Prabhupada would be compelled towards educational

pursuits with Rahu in 2nd...this is the nature of Rahu...he draws us

(irresistibly) towards the affairs of the house he occupies. Without benefic

aspect, of course, this placement could well indicate compulsive cravings in

regards to finances, partaking of wrong foods etc; however the aspect of

Jupiter, as already indicated in regards to speech, ensures an irresistible pull

towards divine knowledge...and with Rahu's dispositor (lagnesh Saturn) exalted

in 10th house his great fame as an educator of divine knowledge was

assured....how could it be otherwise!

 

Please (also) note that Rahu is in 10th from natal Moon and has gone to 9th in

navamsha. Without THIS Rahu Prabhupada would not have been the great religious

educator that he was. I have observed that, without the "push" of Rahu, great

fame (I accentuate GREAT) is seldom achieved.

 

I would dearly love to complete my interpretation of this exceptional chart, but

having spent most of last night hooked to a ECG, I'm sapped of energy.....

 

Best Wishes,

Wendy

 

==========================

Wendy Vasicek: Vedic Astrologer

http://welcome.to/Vedic Astrology/

wenvas

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Om Krsnaaya Namah

 

Pranaams Robert,

 

Hare Krsna! Nice to be back on this topic again!

 

> Lakshmi, the ascendant is one of the houses of Vishnu. And so

> far as gurus

> representing the Light or the Sattva guna, you are going to have planets

> influencing the 9th house more so than planets influencing the 8th

> house. I think where the mistake was in K. N. Rao's mind was that he had

> seen many so called Sattvics or Tapasvis, which are kinds of ascetics in

> India with predominant planets in the 8th house. Well the 8th

> house has to

> do with a much lower guna than the 9th house obviously, & so for someone

> who completely resonates with the transcendental mode of Sattwa, the 9th

> house has to be emphasized.

 

True that one would usually expect the ninth to such a sattvik path, and the

eighth to be more involved in other more materialistically inclined forms of

spirituality. But I think the role of the eighth cannot be underestimated.

The eighth is to do with "old" and "secret" things, and it is also a moksha

bhava. Despite the fact that Srila Prabhupada was not a moksha-kami, the

strength of the eighth here shows many things about him, and the philosophy

he taught. The strong combination in the eighth allowed him to not fear

death, and one of the main pillars of the philosophy he teaches is getting

to know that we are souls, not bodies, and we do not die when the body is

slain. What he taught was "raja vidya, raja guhya, pavitram idam uttamam" -

the king of sacred knowledge, the king of sacred secrets". It seems perfect

that the sattvik planets occupy strong positions in the house of secrets

(especially that the lord of the third of writing is also in this combo).

Furthermore, as per sastra, the eighth can under certain circumstances

becomes conducive to sattvik spirituality. In this connection, Sanketa Nidhi

quotes Rishi Lomasa, who says that when the twelfth Lord occupies the second

or eighth, the native's devotion to Bhagavan Sri Krsna will be tremendous.

Whilst simple combinations cannot be applied to every chart, this

illustrates the fact that certain circumstances can render the eighth and

twelfth beneficial to sattvik forms of spirituality. Finally, and most

importantly, I think the fact that the ninth house is still strong in the

Capricorn chart is probably what allowed the eighth house combinations to

take a sattvik form of manifestation.

 

>

> Rahu in the 2nd house. How could Rahu possibly be in the 2nd

> house in the

> chart of a great spiritual leader & learned person? The 2nd house is the

> house of speech. Rahu in the 2nd house represents deceptive or

> dishonorable speech or lack of integrity in the matter of speech. And

> furthermore, the 2nd house is the house of knowledge. How could there be

> knowledge of significant proportion with Rahu in the 2nd house,

> especially

> knowledge of scripture & knowledge of sattvic subject matters. Now, so

 

Wouldn't the svakshetra status of Rahu, as well as the tight aspect of

Jupiter, and Sattvik Sun, and the exaltation of the second Lord allow the

more desirable indications of the second to manifest? And we know that

despite his strong position, Rahu will hurt the personal significations of

the second - namely family. This appears to be clear. Srila Prabhupada's

mother died early, his marriage was shaky, and his relationship with his

children was not good. His eldest son was a bit retarded, and one day left

and never returned. This seems typical of Rahu in the second.

 

> falsely positions of guru themselves. So, when you see the lord

> of the 5th

> going to the 6th with the lord of the 8th, there's going to be

> trouble with

> disciples as well as natural sons.

>

 

I agree that this makes sense, but I propose the situation is yet clearer

from the Capricorn chart. The fifth Lord Venus is debilitated in conjunction

with the sixth Lord (who is also ninth Lord), and this all takes place in

A6. So it makes sense that some of Prabhupada's disciples caused great

problems in ISKCON especially during the time that Prabhupada would run

Venus Dasa - 20 years immediately after his passing. Yet, Venus participates

in a fantastic Raja yoga, and gets neecha bhanga. So it makes sense that

MOST disciples continue with the pure message Prabhupada brought, and

practise Vaishnavism to a very high standard all around the world. For

example, the four regulative principles Prabhupada required of his disciples

are rarely practised in total among most Hindus (I can say this being a

birth Hindu myself), let alone getting up at four in the morning, cold

showers, 16 rounds, various fasts etc. The deity worship as carried out in

all main ISKCON centres is probably one of the best displays of high

standard, elaborate worship as per the Pancharatrika texts one is likely to

see outside India, and even in India, the standards are usually only matched

by temples at places of Pilgrimage.

 

Also, despite it's problems, the raja yogas Venus participates in has

allowed ISKCON to gain popularity after Prabhupada's departure. Projects

such as those at Mayapur are going on. Spectacular temples, such as the

Palace of Gold have been constructed outside India, as well as big ones in

India - such as the one in Bombay. ISKCON has enormous support from the

Hindu community - for example, when Bhaktivedanta Manor here was to be

closed down due to heavy traffic on Sundays, close to 40,000 people

demonstrated by marching through London on the main day. Now, since the

problem was solved by making a separate road, the Manor is extremely

popular. To see the arati at 7pm on Sundays, one has to queue up.

Janmashtami usually attracts about 70,000 people. After about 3pm, if one

comes to get darshan of the deities for like about 30 seconds, one must

queue up for three to four hours. So the raja yoga Venus participates in,

promising fame, popularity, wealth etc. has manifest simultaneously with the

"debilitated disciple" problems. With the Sagittarius chart, the disposition

of the fifth Lord suggests far greater problems, problems that would not

allow ISKCON to go as far as it has.

 

> get it straight & pursue the proper path. Also, the Arudha of the 5th

> house happens to be the sign of Gemini & the sign of Gemini has exalted

> planet Mercury as its lord. And it was very much the fact that

> Prabhupada

> accomplished his writing of so many volumes of books with great help from

> not only the savvy of his disciples who knew how to put together

> & publish

> books & how to illustrate them very beautifully, but also with the

> financial contributions of some disciples. And so 11th lord Venus joins

 

I see exalted Mercury, aspecting the third, conjunct raja yogakaraka Venus

as being extremely helpful in the publishing of books - books which are

accepted in academic institutions around the world, and best-selling edition

of BG etc. With Mercury in exaltation in the tenth, while writing is

suggested, wouldn't the conjunction of Venus, who is a functional and

temporal malefic, limit the popularity, and number of books?

 

> Now, it was stated by an astrologer, when Prabhupada was born, as is the

> customary tendency of Hindu families to consult the astrologer at

> the birth

> of a child. The astrologer said that in Prabhupada's 70th year, he would

> go to America & he would open 108 temples. This actually happened. So,

 

It is interesting that Prabhupada knew and met this astrologer later in

life, and yet he maintained a TOB which would give Cap rising.

 

> the question is, coming back to our chart controversy, where do you see

> that in the Capricorn chart? You see the lord of the 4th going to the

 

To me this is also clear in the Capricorn chart. Mercury, the ninth and

twelfth Lord joins raja yoga karaka Venus, the dispositor of the first,

seventh and fourth lords, in his own ninth house, while Jupiter, the twelfth

Lord aspects the fourth house. This explains quite clearly why Prabhupada

travelled extensively in Mercury dasha. In the Sag chart, though Mercury

exalted in the tenth (as seventh lord) gives travel, the association of

functional malefic Venus limits this travel, and this conjunction of Venus

does not support the fact that he circled the globe fourteen times in twelve

years.

 

>

> Now, so far as my chart is concerned, my atmakaraka planet is at

> 29 degrees

> Gemini, whereas Prabhupada's ascendant is at 29 degrees of

> Sagittarius, so

> it makes much more sense to me that my atmakaraka planet, which

> also falls

> in my 9th house would be on the direct 7th house axis of my guru's

> chart. Also, Venus in his chart, which is the dispositor of the

> 5th lord,

> is almost in the exact same degree & minute of the Sun in my birth

> chart. So, those connections are very significant also.

>

 

The personal links are the things I can't argue with. I respect that these

are important to each individual astrologer, and I can't argue with them.

For me, the Prashna which I told you about, was very significant, like a

message from Krsna himself.

 

 

> There was more to this dialogue, which I will not reproduce here, but

> anyway, the main arguments were given as above for Sagittarius

> lagna. More

> later..........

>

 

If possible, I would like to see the rest, either on the list or privately.

I look forward to your comments,

 

Jaya Radhe,

 

Pursottam

 

 

_______

 

Get your free @ address at

[Guest guest]

Om Gurave Namah,

 

At 08:01 PM 10/10/01 +0100, you wrote:

>Om Krsnaaya Namah

>

>Pranaams Robert,

>

>Hare Krsna! Nice to be back on this topic again!

 

So nice to be back in touch with you, Pursottam! As always, your arguments

are clear and strong, and that reveals considerable advancement or progress

in your Jyotish. I don't have a lot of time today to respond to each one

of your points, but I do want to present the following:

 

1. First, do you take the first Navamsa of Capricorn rising then for

Prabhupada? if so, then please explain the logic of the four planets in

Aries in the 4th house, as per the larger destiny of his lifetime. And,

if you can explain those, then tell me if you think that it is more likely

that Ketu, Saturn, Mercury, and Jupiter should join in the 4th, as per Cp

Navamsa lagna, instead of in the 5th (dharma, and Laksmi) as per Sg? If it

is Cp lagna, then lagna lord Saturn debilitated in the 4th is not

likely. If it is Sg lagna, then Jupiter in a powerful Parama mitra sign of

Aries, with Mars in the 7th is by far more logical.

 

* Following this line of thought, do you think it is more appropriate to

have the Arudha (in the Rasi) in the 5th house, or the 4th (Sg as opposed

to Cp lagnas)?

 

* Further to padas of houses: You mentioned that Rahu in the 2nd is more

likely for a difficult family life, than if in the 3rd. True, but what is

more challenging: Rahu in the 2nd (as per Cp lagna), or Rahu in the Upapada

lagna (as per Sg)?

 

2. Also, If Cp were rising in the Navamsa (the chart of dharma), that

would position Venus on the lagna. Now was Prabhupada a Venusian

person? Do we not see pictures of him with a very stern, austere face, a

Sannyasi of the highest order, completely unattached to anything material,

non-sensual, and preferring a very simple and non-flamboyant way of

life? Also, we know that his married life was the height of misery for

him and very unsuccessful. That would not be the case with Yoga-karaka

Venus on the lagna, and 7th lord Moon in the 9th (as per Cp

rising). Instead, if you take Sg Navamsa rising, then 7th lord Mercury is

in an enemy sign (Aries), with Saturn and Ketu. He renounced marriage and

family life (Saturn is lord of 2nd), and took Sannyasa. Can you show this

from the proposed Cp lagna in Navamsa?

 

Since I am short on time today, let me list a few significant dates in

Prabhupada's life, and then we can decide which of the two lagnas shows the

events more clearly. After all, this is the technique routinely followed

in order to hone birth times. With Narayana dasa, or other rasi dasas, it

should be easy. Since many people on this list are not familiar with those

dasa systems, we can confine ourselves to Vimsottari dasa for now.

 

EVENTS:

 

1. Started learning Sanskrit in 1904, and became initiated by family guru

in 1905.

2. 1916: Began college at Scottish Church University, in Calcutta. Passed

exam for B.A. degree in 1920.

3. 1921: First son born; 1924 birth of daughter

4. 1922: Met his guru, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati

5. 1925: First visit to Vrndavana, the home of Lord Krsna

6. 1930: His father passes away

7. Dec. 13, 1936: His guru enters Samadhi, and passes from this world

8. 1944: Started his own magazine, "Back to Godhead"

9. 1954: Left his wife after she traded his Srimad Bhagavatam for tea.

10. Sept. 1959: Received Sannyasa initiation from Srila Keshava Maharaja

11. Sept. 18, 1965: Landed on American soil (Boston harbor), for the first

time to begin his mission of spreading Krsna Consciousness in the

west. Note that on the voyage here from India, he had two heart

attacks. Explain those events too, when you analyze the dasas.

12. Aug. 1969: Held the first Rathayatra ceremony ever of Lord Jagannatha

outside of India, in London, UK.

13. May, 1975: Opened the grand Krsna-Balarama Mandir, in Vrndavana India.

14. Nov. 14, 1977: Passed from this world amid the chanting of the Holy

Names of Krsna in Vrndavana, India, and attained Moksha.

 

There are many events, but these should suffice for now. Let me know what

you find, and I will do some more study on this later today.

 

 

 

Best wishes,

Robert

 

=====================================

Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer

Faculty Member, SJVC and ACVA

Phone: 541-318-0248

visit <http://www.robertkoch.com> or e-mail

rk. rk and

rkoch rkoch

[Guest guest]

Dear List Members

I agree with the arguments put forward by Purusottama and Wendy which are

pretty fundamental jyotish .With Capricorn Lagna the close asociation of

Jupiter and Ketu is the association of the functional and natural Lords of

Moksha in a Mokshaic house which combined with the phenomenally strong 9th

house of dharma gives a tremendous combination for Dharma and Moksha .The

astrologers who used this chart in SPs lifetime were blessed with correct

prediction but the rectifiers were not .So we can judge who is blessed with

the jyotish vidya . Usually the rectifiers get into rather obscure

techniques for which there is no need as the original chart makes perfect

sense .

Best Wishes

Nicholas

 

 

-

"Wendy Vasicek" <wenvas

<gjlist>

Thursday, October 11, 2001 2:39 PM

Re: [gjlist] Srila Prabhupada's lagna

 

 

> Hello Robert,

> Although I realize your response to Prabhupada's Capricorn lagna was

addressed to Pursottam, I'm sure (in the spirit of jyotish) you'll not mind

my comments...

> First; without knowing the precise time you're working with it's difficult

to follow your reasoning fully....

>

> You Wrote:

> >>>Also, If Cp were rising in the Navamsa (the chart of dharma), that

> would position Venus on the lagna. Now was Prabhupada a Venusian

> person? Do we not see pictures of him with a very stern, austere face, a

> Sannyasi of the highest order, completely unattached to anything material,

> non-sensual, and preferring a very simple and non-flamboyant way of

> life? Also, we know that his married life was the height of misery for

> him and very unsuccessful. That would not be the case with Yoga-karaka

> Venus on the lagna, and 7th lord Moon in the 9th (as per Cp

> rising). Instead, if you take Sg Navamsa rising, then 7th lord Mercury is

> in an enemy sign (Aries), with Saturn and Ketu. He renounced marriage and

> family life (Saturn is lord of 2nd), and took Sannyasa. Can you show this

> from the proposed Cp lagna in Navamsa?<<<

>

> Now looking at Sagittarius lagna, using (tentative) time of 15.04 we do

indeed have Sagittarius rising in navamsha, as you say, with 7th lord's

dispositor (Mars) in the 7th house itself...please note the exchange of

signs (mutual reception) between 7th lord and 7th lord's dispositor,

enhancing each other's energies...both planets become more powerful.

Certainly this can indicate a hot, passionate married life, but is not (to

my mind) a strong indication of misery and separation. Of course the aspect

(on Venus) by debilitated Saturn is unfavourable for significations of

Venus, but we have that same aspect no matter what time is used.

>

> However with Capricorn lagna (tentative 15.56 T.O.B.) we have Aquarius

Navamsha with 7th (Rashi lord) Moon conjunct (Rashi) 8th lord Sun in 8th

navamsha, whilst significator of spouse (Venus) has gone to the 12th

house...this surely indicates misery and separation.

>

> I look forward to interpreting more of the chart as energy levels

permit.....

>

>

> Best Wishes,

> Wendy

>

> ==========================

> Wendy Vasicek: Vedic Astrologer

> http://welcome.to/Vedic Astrology/

> wenvas

>

>

>

>

>

>

> gjlist-

>

>

>

> Your use of is subject to

>

>

[Guest guest]

gjlist, "Nicholas" <costa@A...> wrote:

> Dear List Members

> I agree with the arguments put forward by Purusottama and Wendy

which are

> pretty fundamental jyotish .

 

Fundamental what!!?! The 12th is the mokshsthan, really, and the

eighth is an evil house. Ketu is there, and the strongresults from

the heyday of the Hare Krishna movement are from the Ketu dasha. And

the Capricorn chart would give several olders siblings, including a

brother.

 

What about older siblings? Sagittarius stands as the only one which

corresponds to this iron-clad fact: Shrila Prabhupada had one older

sister.

 

Dharmapada

 

With Capricorn Lagna the close asociation of

> Jupiter and Ketu is the association of the functional and natural

Lords of

> Moksha in a Mokshaic house which combined with the phenomenally

strong 9th

> house of dharma gives a tremendous combination for Dharma and

Moksha .The

> astrologers who used this chart in SPs lifetime were blessed with

correct

> prediction but the rectifiers were not .So we can judge who is

blessed with

> the jyotish vidya . Usually the rectifiers get into rather obscure

> techniques for which there is no need as the original chart makes

perfect

> sense .

> Best Wishes

> Nicholas

>

>

> -

> "Wendy Vasicek" <wenvas@d...>

> <gjlist>

> Thursday, October 11, 2001 2:39 PM

> Re: [gjlist] Srila Prabhupada's lagna

>

>

> > Hello Robert,

> > Although I realize your response to Prabhupada's Capricorn lagna

was

> addressed to Pursottam, I'm sure (in the spirit of jyotish) you'll

not mind

> my comments...

> > First; without knowing the precise time you're working with it's

difficult

> to follow your reasoning fully....

> >

> > You Wrote:

> > >>>Also, If Cp were rising in the Navamsa (the chart of dharma),

that

> > would position Venus on the lagna. Now was Prabhupada a Venusian

> > person? Do we not see pictures of him with a very stern, austere

face, a

> > Sannyasi of the highest order, completely unattached to anything

material,

> > non-sensual, and preferring a very simple and non-flamboyant way

of

> > life? Also, we know that his married life was the height of

misery for

> > him and very unsuccessful. That would not be the case with Yoga-

karaka

> > Venus on the lagna, and 7th lord Moon in the 9th (as per Cp

> > rising). Instead, if you take Sg Navamsa rising, then 7th lord

Mercury is

> > in an enemy sign (Aries), with Saturn and Ketu. He renounced

marriage and

> > family life (Saturn is lord of 2nd), and took Sannyasa. Can you

show this

> > from the proposed Cp lagna in Navamsa?<<<

> >

> > Now looking at Sagittarius lagna, using (tentative) time of 15.04

we do

> indeed have Sagittarius rising in navamsha, as you say, with 7th

lord's

> dispositor (Mars) in the 7th house itself...please note the

exchange of

> signs (mutual reception) between 7th lord and 7th lord's dispositor,

> enhancing each other's energies...both planets become more powerful.

> Certainly this can indicate a hot, passionate married life, but is

not (to

> my mind) a strong indication of misery and separation. Of course

the aspect

> (on Venus) by debilitated Saturn is unfavourable for significations

of

> Venus, but we have that same aspect no matter what time is used.

> >

> > However with Capricorn lagna (tentative 15.56 T.O.B.) we have

Aquarius

> Navamsha with 7th (Rashi lord) Moon conjunct (Rashi) 8th lord Sun

in 8th

> navamsha, whilst significator of spouse (Venus) has gone to the 12th

> house...this surely indicates misery and separation.

> >

> > I look forward to interpreting more of the chart as energy levels

> permit.....

> >

> >

> > Best Wishes,

> > Wendy

> >

> > ==========================

> > Wendy Vasicek: Vedic Astrologer

> > http://welcome.to/Vedic Astrology/

> > wenvas@d...

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > gjlist-

> >

> >

> >

> > Your use of is subject to

 

> >

> >