western versus eastern astrology systems

[Guest guest]

Hello list members,

 

I am member of a club which probably include most of western style astrologers,

A discussion is on that why Hindu Astrology use Fix Zodiac instead of Moving

Zodiac. What is the logic behind this? . Another question was that why we do not

use Extra saturnine Planets in Natal Astrology.

Will any member reply these question? Though I replied the second question, but

I am yet to post on Moving versus Fix.

If any of the member will help.

Inder Jit Sahni

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Inder Jit Sahni schrieb:

> Hello list members,

>

> I am member of a club which probably include most of western style

> astrologers, A discussion is on that why Hindu Astrology use Fix Zodiac

> instead of Moving Zodiac. What is the logic behind this? .

 

 

Dear Inder Jit,

 

The question of zodiacs involves eaoteric, logic and philosophy. Do the planets

impel us or compel us? Are events in our lives absolutely pre-destined or is

there a free will? What I say here is IMHO, not quoting any seer!

 

If everxthing is predestined, the law of Karma has no meaning. We will be damned

or saved from the beginning, for we will always acquire that Karma which is

pre-destined! So free will has to be accepted, no matter how difficult it is to

excercise it, to say there is a sense in living!

 

So comes the question: Do planets impel or compel? If they compel, life is

totally pre-destined, for the planetary positions happen according to physical

laws and can be calculated in advance: as every ephemeris or computer programme

shows! The alternative is that they impel. But how? Following possibilities are

to be considered:

 

1. They impel by themselves, by radiating certain energies. If so, since all

planets are always there, one must find a "resultant" of all the planets at

every moment to say what happens - or how one behaves. But this resultant must

be superimposed on the resultant at the time of birth, before the final

resultant for the moment can be determined.

 

2. They impel by acting as "lenses", concentrating cosmic energies. The cosmic

energies could be totally present as transcendent, or in sectors of the cosmos.

Now, if transcendent, the position of the planet is practically irrelevant, for

the solar system is only a dot in the cosmeo. Planetary influences would then

be practically the same right through life, but vary by transit as coming from

different directions. The wesrern "mundoscope" illustrates this to a certain

extent.

 

3. They impel by acting as "lenses", concentrating cosmic energies. THe cosmic

energies are in sectors, defined by the constellations. The exact limits of

these constellations astronomically as well as by various traditions are not

exactly 30° wide. Some constellations are wider, others narrower. But

arbitrarily each one has been given 30°, so that one can have 12 divisions in

the 360° circle.

 

Now, western astrology, in a sense, neglects cosmic influences. It bases the 12

divisions of the zodiac on the position of the earth in relation to the sun: the

spring equinox is the beginning of the zodiac, representing the birth of new

life on earth. This unfortunately shuts off all people south of the eaquator,

for the spring equinox in the north is the Autumn eqinox in their latitudes!

 

Western astrology is based on the life cycle of the earth, BUT ONLY AS SEEN FROM

TJE NORTHERN HEMISPHERE. Are there no people south of the equator? If western

astrology would /could reverse its signs for births in the southern hemisphere,

it would be more convincing, but this is "impossible": east remains east,

whether north or south!

 

Once this fundamental anomaly is removed, all basis for a sun-oriented zodiac is

lost. Each zodiacal sign is supposed to have certain inherent characteristics.

The characteristics are almost identical in western and jyothish. One exception

is Gemini: western it is duality, but in Jyothish a union between dualities.

Subtle.

 

The qualities of a certain ascendant are defined by the zodiacal sign. This sign

keeps moving against the fixed stars in western astrology. The characteristics

of Aries are today seen against a piscean background, a few hundred years later

it will be against an aquarian. Western astrologers soeak often about the

"Aquarian age". This is nonsense: Since their zodiac always starts with the

northern spring equinox as 0° aries, there can only be a permanent Aeian age!

But if they say the "age" depends on where the equinoctial point lies, they are

appealing to the fixed zodiac!!!!!!

My personal experience is that character readings by the western zodiac is not

right, the fixed zodiac is much better!

 

The cosmic zodiac is the real zodiac, but since its sectors are ill-defined, the

question of ayanamsa arises. Are the sectors 30° each, or as per traditional

divisions? Who knows?

 

If one chooses 30°, where does it begin? At a certain point in the tropical

(western zodiac). THe starting point is uncertain.

 

By a concensus of opinion the "Lahiri" ayanamsa was accepted. It placed the

star Spica at 180° of the zodiac. A westerner, dissatisfied by this ayanamsa,

tried to find the starting point by world statistics and came up with the

Fagan-Bradely ayanamsa. Recently Chandrahari from Kerala in India gave reasons

for a new starting point, based on the star Mula (Shaula). This is the only

ayanamsa supported by ancient evidence. IMHO this needs a slight correction of

some 50 seconds.

 

Cyril Fagan tried to determine the exact position by statistics. He arrived at a

value not far from Chandrahari.

 

The fundamental question is: what is the basis of astrology: the sun (western

tropical) or the cosmos, (western sdereal and jyothish?)

 

Western sidereal uses fundamental factors. Jxothish deals with subtöle factors,

but the emphasis is on a society that existed long ago. This makes

interpretation difficult. A good jyothishi must be able to interpret in modern

terms. IMHO western astrologers are good at prediction, as long as they confine

their judgement to basic qualities of planets and their exact aspects. Jyothish

brings other nuances.

 

Sidereal western astrology and jyothish are parallel and can be integrated -

which I wish would happen, and is happening in many cases. Tropical astrology is

not compatible with jyothish, but may have a mundane significance,

 

Western astrologers often "precess" their return charts, like the Solar return

or Varshaphal. This is a contradiction: they accept the fixed zodiac for the

events in a person´s life, BUT not for the birth!

 

On the other hand, jyothishis usually disregard the directional methods of the

weartwerners. But there is evidence that the ancient jyothishis did use

directions and many modern jyothishis do so too.

 

 

The planets uranus, Neptune and pluto are too slow-moving to really affect

individuals. They wewre known as Indra, Varuna and Yama in in the vedic times.

Their effects being global, they were left out in jxothish. Western astrology

takes them into account, but usually in a false manner, forgetting that the

effects are essentially global. But sidereal westerners and some jyothishis do

take them seriously, when they are placed on sensitive positions in a horoscope,

within an orb of 1°.

 

I hope I have clarified some points!

 

regards

Mani

[Guest guest]

Hello Mani,

Thanks very much for the input ,

How i replied the question i am giving for the previw of list members.

To answer the question that why extra Saturnine Planets are not used in Indian

Natal Astrology I will have to use very basis of Indian Astrology.

The 1st thing Indian Astrology does not suggest any subordination to something

which is absolutely predestined. The planets by themselves do not bring about

human destiny. Their relation to human being is as of a thermometer to an

individual. As a thermometer shows the temperature of a person but is not

temperature itself , so are the planets in a Zodiac sign to a person.

You can measure temperature by water made instrument , even some other elements

are also useful to measure , but we found mercury as the best and fit to be used

in the thermometer . We as a whole are made-up of five elements viz. earth,

water,fire,air and Akash (ether), the conscious part considered of mind and

soul. Sun is a thermometer which measures the Soul, Sun representing the greater

conscious is the nearest and most fit thermometer the matters governing soul,

Moon is the best suitable to measure the mind, in the same way Mercury for earth

element, Mars for fire , Venus for water, Saturn for Air and Jupiter for Akash.

North node is the Kaal (Time) and South node is for the liberation. It make nine

thermometer to read the Karma's of an individual with use of signs and

Constellation of Zodiac as scale.

The Astrology in India is referred to by Sage Prashra who was a liberated soul.

The Sage has mentioned in his works which are as old as 3000years before Christ

that though there are more planets away from Saturn , but being far away from

human being are less effective and need not be considered.

Extra Saturnine planets are widely used in Mundane Astrology , Busyness

astrology but not in Natal.

There is one another reason for this .

>From thousand of years back Hindu Sages compiled thousand of ready made

horoscopes and horoscope-patterns and also mentioned in them valuable

astrological formulas. Hundred and thousand of people all around the world make

use of these already recorded horoscopes and make use of them. These

compilations called Nadi Grantha in South India and Bhrighu Sahita in North

India.Some of these books give entire life history of persons and explaining

them by astrological reasons, while others give predictions for past present and

future without much astrological discussions.

There are also such rareNadi books which give your birth chart on the basis of

your Palm Lines. The horoscope thus correctly traced indicates the entire life

history of an individual from cradle to grave.

It include , birthplace , name of the person, name of village, caste details of

birth, parents brother and sister alive and death education , future

attainments, number of marriages private life etc. Disease ,friends and remedial

measures if possible.

You will be astonished to know that many persons born in your country may find

every thing about you already in one's of this Nadi Grantha.

In these Nadi books each sign of the Zodiac is divided into 150 parts called

amsa, Each division thus comprises as an arc of 12' or about 48 seconds . Each

of these 150 divisions of a sign is given a proper name such as Vasudha ,

Vaishnavi ......and in a certain order,which hold good in movable sign . Thus

1st amsha (minute division) of Aries , Cancer , Libra and Capricorn will be same

order will be reverse in fix signs i.e. in Taurus , Leo, Scorpio and Aquarius.

In the case of dual signs count commences from 76th amsha (minute sub division)

This minute division is further sub divided into 1st and 2nd part so that time

of birth should be determined with great precision. The results are bound to

vary with each such minute . While birth in the 1st part in Aries i.e.Aries 0

degree 6 minute Ascendant will make one an educationist , 2nd part fro 6 to 12

minute a politician.

The discussion can go a long way , I request the members to search for some Nadi

Astrology sites and find for themselves.

These nadi grantha are with the persons to whom these are come as inheritance.

They only match your horoscope and will read out the effects to you .

These Nadi grantha are written on the basis of Principals followed by Maharishi

Prashra and by fixed Zodiac. So when every thing could be predicted by fixed

zodiac and without extra saturnine planets Indian Astrologer will not follow

Extra Saturnine Planets.

Also Uranus was discovered in 1781 , its period of revolution is 84 years,

Neptune in 1846 , its period is 164.5 years and Pluto is known to us only from

1930. By their orbiting time they are much effective to Mundane .

A prashra type Astrologer if comes in existence or an Astrologer who is with

liberated soul , who could explain past present and future , who should be a

pure yogi, could visualize God if will allot some sign to these planets , and

how to allot time to them in individual life span , how to use them in

Vishmotray Mahadasha , (A wonderful tool in the hand of Vedic Astrologers ) only

then Indian Astrologer will adopt them in Natal Astrology.

Inder Jit Sahni

-

subra

gjlist

Tuesday, October 31, 2000 1:51 AM

Re: [gjlist] western versus eastern astrology systems

 

 

Inder Jit Sahni schrieb:

> Hello list members,

>

> I am member of a club which probably include most of western style

> astrologers, A discussion is on that why Hindu Astrology use Fix Zodiac

> instead of Moving Zodiac. What is the logic behind this? .

 

 

Dear Inder Jit,

 

The question of zodiacs involves eaoteric, logic and philosophy. Do the

planets

impel us or compel us? Are events in our lives absolutely pre-destined or is

there a free will? What I say here is IMHO, not quoting any seer!

 

If everxthing is predestined, the law of Karma has no meaning. We will be

damned

or saved from the beginning, for we will always acquire that Karma which is

pre-destined! So free will has to be accepted, no matter how difficult it is

to

excercise it, to say there is a sense in living!

 

So comes the question: Do planets impel or compel? If they compel, life is

totally pre-destined, for the planetary positions happen according to physical

laws and can be calculated in advance: as every ephemeris or computer

programme

shows! The alternative is that they impel. But how? Following possibilities

are

to be considered:

 

1. They impel by themselves, by radiating certain energies. If so, since all

planets are always there, one must find a "resultant" of all the planets at

every moment to say what happens - or how one behaves. But this resultant must

be superimposed on the resultant at the time of birth, before the final

resultant for the moment can be determined.

 

2. They impel by acting as "lenses", concentrating cosmic energies. The cosmic

energies could be totally present as transcendent, or in sectors of the

cosmos.

Now, if transcendent, the position of the planet is practically irrelevant,

for

the solar system is only a dot in the cosmeo. Planetary influences would then

be practically the same right through life, but vary by transit as coming from

different directions. The wesrern "mundoscope" illustrates this to a certain

extent.

 

3. They impel by acting as "lenses", concentrating cosmic energies. THe cosmic

energies are in sectors, defined by the constellations. The exact limits of

these constellations astronomically as well as by various traditions are not

exactly 30° wide. Some constellations are wider, others narrower. But

arbitrarily each one has been given 30°, so that one can have 12 divisions in

the 360° circle.

 

Now, western astrology, in a sense, neglects cosmic influences. It bases the

12

divisions of the zodiac on the position of the earth in relation to the sun:

the

spring equinox is the beginning of the zodiac, representing the birth of new

life on earth. This unfortunately shuts off all people south of the eaquator,

for the spring equinox in the north is the Autumn eqinox in their latitudes!

 

Western astrology is based on the life cycle of the earth, BUT ONLY AS SEEN

FROM

TJE NORTHERN HEMISPHERE. Are there no people south of the equator? If western

astrology would /could reverse its signs for births in the southern

hemisphere,

it would be more convincing, but this is "impossible": east remains east,

whether north or south!

 

Once this fundamental anomaly is removed, all basis for a sun-oriented zodiac

is

lost. Each zodiacal sign is supposed to have certain inherent

characteristics.

The characteristics are almost identical in western and jyothish. One

exception

is Gemini: western it is duality, but in Jyothish a union between dualities.

Subtle.

 

The qualities of a certain ascendant are defined by the zodiacal sign. This

sign

keeps moving against the fixed stars in western astrology. The characteristics

of Aries are today seen against a piscean background, a few hundred years

later

it will be against an aquarian. Western astrologers soeak often about the

"Aquarian age". This is nonsense: Since their zodiac always starts with the

northern spring equinox as 0° aries, there can only be a permanent Aeian age!

But if they say the "age" depends on where the equinoctial point lies, they

are

appealing to the fixed zodiac!!!!!!

My personal experience is that character readings by the western zodiac is not

right, the fixed zodiac is much better!

 

The cosmic zodiac is the real zodiac, but since its sectors are ill-defined,

the

question of ayanamsa arises. Are the sectors 30° each, or as per traditional

divisions? Who knows?

 

If one chooses 30°, where does it begin? At a certain point in the tropical

(western zodiac). THe starting point is uncertain.

 

By a concensus of opinion the "Lahiri" ayanamsa was accepted. It placed the

star Spica at 180° of the zodiac. A westerner, dissatisfied by this ayanamsa,

tried to find the starting point by world statistics and came up with the

Fagan-Bradely ayanamsa. Recently Chandrahari from Kerala in India gave

reasons

for a new starting point, based on the star Mula (Shaula). This is the only

ayanamsa supported by ancient evidence. IMHO this needs a slight correction of

some 50 seconds.

 

Cyril Fagan tried to determine the exact position by statistics. He arrived at

a

value not far from Chandrahari.

 

The fundamental question is: what is the basis of astrology: the sun (western

tropical) or the cosmos, (western sdereal and jyothish?)

 

Western sidereal uses fundamental factors. Jxothish deals with subtöle

factors,

but the emphasis is on a society that existed long ago. This makes

interpretation difficult. A good jyothishi must be able to interpret in modern

terms. IMHO western astrologers are good at prediction, as long as they

confine

their judgement to basic qualities of planets and their exact aspects.

Jyothish

brings other nuances.

 

Sidereal western astrology and jyothish are parallel and can be integrated -

which I wish would happen, and is happening in many cases. Tropical astrology

is

not compatible with jyothish, but may have a mundane significance,

 

Western astrologers often "precess" their return charts, like the Solar return

or Varshaphal. This is a contradiction: they accept the fixed zodiac for the

events in a person´s life, BUT not for the birth!

 

On the other hand, jyothishis usually disregard the directional methods of the

weartwerners. But there is evidence that the ancient jyothishis did use

directions and many modern jyothishis do so too.

 

 

The planets uranus, Neptune and pluto are too slow-moving to really affect

individuals. They wewre known as Indra, Varuna and Yama in in the vedic times.

Their effects being global, they were left out in jxothish. Western astrology

takes them into account, but usually in a false manner, forgetting that the

effects are essentially global. But sidereal westerners and some jyothishis do

take them seriously, when they are placed on sensitive positions in a

horoscope,

within an orb of 1°.

 

I hope I have clarified some points!

 

regards

Mani

 

 

gjlist-

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Inder Sahni,

 

When you address the question of moving vs fixed zodiac, first analyse what

is ayanamsha and how is it worked out. Our zodiac (hindu) starts from 180

deg. opposite chitra and thus only the lahiri ayanamsha or which basically

is chitra-pakshiya ayanamsha starts from that point of intersection which is

also the beginning of 0 deg. aries. The difference between fixed and moving

ayanamsha is added as ayanamsha.

 

regards,

 

Manoj

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[Guest guest]

Dear Mani,

You are correct, I belong To Hoshiarpur Punjab, presently living some 200 km

away but my native house and brothers are living at Hoshiarpur Punjab. The

Bhrighu Sahita readers at Hoshiarpur know me well , because of Astrology and

also because I teach a lesson to them for their crookedness.

I had many encounters with Bhrighu Sahita as I remain witness to many

readings, which were recorded by me . I still believe that there is astrology

behind it, many readings are going true for both past and future, in many only

past was correct, future did not match at all.it is only due to there cheat

behavior that some time for making money they give stereo type readings. They

must have with them patterns of horoscopes some times complete and some times

in-complete to which they manipulate.

My father was a teacher and he give coaching to almost all the readers of

Bhrighu Sahita,living at Railway Mandi, Hoshiarpur. Though they are Brahmin by

caste they do every thing which a Malecha will do. Because of my interest in

Astrology from my 12th year of age I remain very submitted to these persons till

I smell the foul play.

1st thing they don't know any thing about astrology,

In one case i give them four horoscopes of a family, bychance i give them one

wrong name for the member.

While giving reading the Bhrighu reader gave the same wrong name.

One of the senior member of these readers use to discuss Astrology with me for

his family members, they were impressed by my style of readings i was not aware

with KP in those days , but toatly Vedic but i used transit and Navmash readings

from my inner vision, which i laterly discovered match with the nadi style.

Though they also show me the readings obtained from Bhrighu Sahita for some of

there family members , but they were having faith in other methods also. One day

this person asked me to try predict for the Prime Minister (Mrs Indira Gandhi)

and they will give those predictions in the News Papers as has been said by the

Bhrighu Sahita Granth. When he asked me so i lost all the faith in them and

instead hated him from my heart.

Above are my student life story.

How i teach them a lesson was published in news papers if members are

interested i will disclose it in my next letter.

With regards ,

Inder Jit Sahni

-

Mani

isawhney_21

Tuesday, October 31, 2000 11:20 PM

Re: [gjlist] western versus eastern astrology systems

 

 

Dear Inderjit,

 

You are right. The perople who possess the nadis/granth are no longer the

honest

pundits of old, but have become greedy and resort to cheating. Many of them

do

not even really understand the ancient language properly. It goes so far

that

they get al lot of the information from the client and give it back as if

read

from the palm leaf! This has become worse since westerners have started

consulting them.

 

Are you living at Hosiarpur? That is where the original Granth is supposed

be,

as far as I know. Or somewhere else? Please answer this question!

 

 

I have seen about 12 Nadi readings. in all of them the lagna given was

1,2,3or 4

signs ahead of the true lagna as calculated. The other positions were

right.

But the sequence of Saturn and Venus were reversed - I don´t remember which

was

wrongly advanced, but I think it was Venus, which sometimes appeared in a

sign

ahead of the actual. The events tallied, but actually not many events were

mentioned. There was much repetition and information that was difficult to

verify: who remembers at the age of 50 when one´s maternal uncle died! In

one

case the entire period of Nazi persecution was not mentioned at all! My own

nadi

readings also had similar defects, but had many more incidents. The best

tallied

very well up to 30 years of age, but then after 2 years nothing did! this

was a

brighu reading. The lagna was not mentioned, but the planetary positions

tallied, if I remember right.

 

I wish I were a millionaire and could buy up all the palm leaves for

research by

a team!

 

Unfortunately all books I have seen re nadis lack a systematic index -

which, I

admit, is difficult to make, unless one feeds all the information into a

computer - which makes any reference or comparison very difficult. The

rationale

given now and then is also "funny" and does not apply to all cases. Was it

astrology or clairvoyance?

 

I have tried out the Nadi rectification as given by satyanarayana Rao. It

does

not work in Germany. The times of birth are recorded at the hospital. A

correction of few minutes is perhaps necessary, but not hours, as is

sometimes

given by the table. Here the question arises: the nadi system is based on

the

time of sunrise; was the astrological - centre of sun - sunrise meant or

appearance of sun at the horizon? The latter would seem to fit better, for

that

is the moment when the cock crows!

 

I would like to have any literature on this subject. Can you give me

sources?

 

Yes, we are all only students. i think that many jyothishis arrogantly

believe

that they have understood all the scriptures. This particularly when they

have

had some guru. But the fact is that the true guru tradition was lost during

the

Moslem conquest of India and the best of gurus today know only a fraction of

what their ancestors knew! most of the scriptures were coded and any

literal

interpretation is suspect!

 

regards

Mani