Guest guest Posted January 8, 2001 Report Share Posted January 8, 2001 Namaste Listmembers, I too am saddened by the news of Richards'condition. Richard is young, and we might consider he still has much to offer.I have read his books and have been thoroughly delighted by his quirky sense of humour and pioneering spirit. Although many of us believe in reincarnation or a life hereafter, death is still considered a passage to be feared. I have been honoured to nurse and assist many,many souls in their passing. I can tell you quite honestly it can be a very beautiful and peaceful experience. Richard is an insightful old soul, and I am sure he is in good hands. Our loving prayers and appreciation will benefit him greatly. OM TAT SAT Ann. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2001 Report Share Posted January 8, 2001 Ann Murphy wrote: > > Namaste Listmembers, > I too am saddened by the news of Richards'condition. > Richard is young, and we might consider he still has much to offer.I have > read his books and have been thoroughly delighted by his quirky sense of > humour and pioneering spirit. > Although many of us believe in reincarnation or a life hereafter, death > is still considered a passage to be feared. > I have been honoured to nurse and assist many,many souls in their > passing. I can tell you quite honestly it can be a very beautiful and > peaceful experience. > Richard is an insightful old soul, and I am sure he is in good hands. > Our loving prayers and appreciation will benefit him greatly. > OM TAT SAT Dear Ann, Everyone of us is in good hands, the hands could perhaps handle us better if we appeal! The "passing away" can be beautiful, I am longing for it for years now. The hands that handle me have so far not led me "home", I live and live till it hurts. I tell myself my autistic son needs me, but that is only "eyewash" - he must some day get along without me! All that keeps me alive is my cowardice - uncertainty about how the Great Mother will look at me if I voluntarily leave this world. Will she welcome me ome or chide me for playing truant! I have lost 4 wonderful nephews, one at 54, but the others were under 22. Their wisdom, love, intelligence etc. were super, it was a joy to be with them and have fun with them. I thought they were God´s chosen children to change the face of the earth, but they left the earth suddenly, without any illness, totally alive and joyous, then gone in a second!!! They had so much to offer, I could give nothing, have nothing to give! Writing email is about all I do today. The cream was taken away, the ballast left behind. I have only heard of Richard. I have one of his books, but it is with a friend, I have not read it. I cast his chart- amazing: at first it has no connection with me, but by rotating it about 5 degrees, all sorts of synastrical contacts appear! Is that why I feel so sad about a person whom I do know at all? I don´t want to be melodramatic, but I find it awful that he should suffer and die so early. Not only for himself, but for the world. In the end, a "mundane" teacher reaches more souls than a "spiritual", even if they are not always quite right! Darwin or Pascal or .... have covinced more people than Jesus or Sankara or Prabhupada! And if the mundane teacher is one who includes God in his teaching, he is very special and of great worth. .... I would plead with God to leave Richard on this earth till he compleats 120 years (actively!). regards Mnni PS: Thank you Chris!..... "ours not to reason why, ours but to do ..... and die" - Charge of the Light Brigade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2001 Report Share Posted January 8, 2001 Namaskar List members, Om Tryambakam Yajamahe sugandhim pushti vardhanam Urvaruk miv bhandanan, mrityor murkshiye ma-mritam I am sorry to hear about Mr. Richard. Though I have had no occassion of meeting him or reading him, but I was told that he came out with correct predictions about George Bush. But it is always sad to lose an enterprising, young and promising astrologer. regards, Manoj >Ann Murphy <evie >gjlist >gjlist >CC: evie >[gjlist] Death and Dying >Tue, 9 Jan 2001 01:40:33 +1100 > > > Namaste Listmembers, > I too am saddened by the news of Richards'condition. > Richard is young, and we might consider he still has much to offer.I >have >read his books and have been thoroughly delighted by his quirky sense of >humour and pioneering spirit. > Although many of us believe in reincarnation or a life hereafter, death >is still considered a passage to be feared. > I have been honoured to nurse and assist many,many souls in their >passing. I can tell you quite honestly it can be a very beautiful and >peaceful experience. > Richard is an insightful old soul, and I am sure he is in good hands. > Our loving prayers and appreciation will benefit him greatly. >OM TAT SAT >Ann. > > > >gjlist- > > > _______________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2001 Report Share Posted January 8, 2001 Namashkar, Prayers make even mountains move. The vibrations of collective prayer will do a great favour to Mr. Richard. Yes. The community of astrologers should collectively pray for Mr. Richrd. yours sincerely Ravindramani _______________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2001 Report Share Posted January 10, 2001 Namaste Manoj, Ann, et al - At 09:48 AM 1/9/01 +0530, you wrote: >Namaskar List members, > >Om Tryambakam Yajamahe sugandhim pushti vardhanam >Urvaruk miv bhandanan, mrityor murkshiye ma-mritam > >I am sorry to hear about Mr. Richard. Though I have had no occassion of >meeting him or reading him, but I was told that he came out with correct >predictions about George Bush. But it is always sad to lose an enterprising, >young and promising astrologer. > >regards, > >Manoj Certainly the event of Rick Houck's passing is sad, although the lamentation is all ours, and not his. I would like to see Rick live another 50 years to produce outstanding, intelligent, and unique book contributions to the astrological world. However, that will not happen, as evident in his chart, and as can be seen through the disposition of lagna, the 8th house, as well as lagna lords in both Trimsamsa and Shastamsa charts. But again, the lamenting is ours, not Rick's. From Karakamsa lagna (the Navamsa placement of the Atmakaraka planet), one can see the passage into the next lifetime. If one is to attain Moksha, then the following must be seen: The 12th from Karakamsa lagna should be aspected by benefics, particularly Jupiter and Moksha karaka Ketu (In Jaimini astrology, Ketu is a benefic, as it stirs the soul toward emancipation, and cessation of the repetitions of birth and death); the lord of the KA lagna itself, should be in benefic association, and disposed favorably toward the 12th house from Navamsa lagna; and finally the KA lagna should be aspected by benefics, especially Jupiter. In Rick Houck's chart, the Sun is the Atmakaraka planet (the planet attaining the highest degrees in its sign). Sun is vargottama in Pisces Navamsa, which is thus the Karakamsa lagna. Now, in Rick's chart, exalted Jupiter occupies the 12th from Navamsa lagna; from there, by rasi (sign) aspect, he aspects the 12th from KA lagna; and Ketu also aspects the 12th from KA lagna. Jupiter also aspects the lord of the 12th from Navamsa lagna. This shows the either he attains Moksha (liberation) after the current incarnation, or he goes to the Brahminical planets of the higher strata, such as Maharloka, Janaloka, or Brahmaloka. These are the topmost planetary systems, which are not detectable by human senses or instruments. They are mentioned in Vedic scriptures such as Srimad Bhagavatam, Surya-Siddhanta, etc. In the rasi chart also, Jupiter/Ketu occupying the 12th, and Jupiter ruling the lagna aspecting the lord of the 12th as well as AK Sun, is a sure indication that such higher and more exalted births are to be attained after the present incarnation during the Vimsottari dasa of Jupiter. Note in his natal chart also, the predominance of planets in Brahminical signs (Cancer, Scorpio, and Pisces), as well as their placements in Jupiterian signs Sagittarius and Pisces. This shows he is a learned man of rare caliber, and someone who exhibits qualities such as compassion, gentility, modesty, honesty, and true sincerity in the treatment of others. He is, in essence, a Brahmana by qualification, even though (to my knowledge) he has never received initiation from a guru or Brahminical lineage. Anyway, we shall continue our struggle here, while Rick - sooner than the rest of us - gets a birth on planes of consciousness and spiritual ecstasy that we cannot fathom. So for whom do we truly lament? Rick's early passing, or our having to continue life on the plane of Samsara (birth and death) for the time being? Still, it is true, that he will be dearly missed, but some of us will get to meet him on the other side, don't know where, don't know when, but we will indeed meet again some sunny day. With regards, Robert ===================================== Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer 760 NW Broken Arrow Rd. Bend, OR. 97701-9037 Phone: 541-318-0248 visit <http://www.robertkoch.com> or e-mail rk. rk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2001 Report Share Posted January 10, 2001 Hello Robert, >But again, the lamenting is ours, not Rick's. From Karakamsa lagna (the >Navamsa placement of the Atmakaraka planet), one can see the passage into >the next lifetime. If one is to attain Moksha, then the following must be >seen: The 12th from Karakamsa lagna should be aspected by benefics, >particularly Jupiter and Moksha karaka Ketu (In Jaimini astrology, Ketu is >a benefic, as it stirs the soul toward emancipation, and cessation of the >repetitions of birth and death); the lord of the KA lagna itself, should be >in benefic association, and disposed favorably toward the 12th house from >Navamsa lagna; and finally the KA lagna should be aspected by benefics, >especially Jupiter. In Rick Houck's chart, the Sun is the Atmakaraka >planet (the planet attaining the highest degrees in its sign). Sun is >vargottama in Pisces Navamsa, which is thus the Karakamsa lagna. Mr. K.N. Rao has been saying this for a long time that to see whether a person attains moksha or not, see the twelfth house from Karkamsha Lagna. See the fifth house from Atma-Karakamsha. Now this is to been seen in the rashi chart itself and not in the navamsha as the Karakamsha, as he says, is the Navamsha Rashi where Atmakarak is placed and that particular rashi in birth chart becomes Karakamsha Lagna. Further Mr. Koch, we in India never lament death as for us, it is the new journey for the departed Soul. Its a new beginning of life and therefore, we offer prayers so that the departed soul attains moksha, if the almighty has so willed for him. Regards, Manoj _______________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 11, 2001 Report Share Posted January 11, 2001 Hello Manoj, Namaskara - At 11:12 AM 1/11/01 +0530, you wrote: >Hello Robert, > > >But again, the lamenting is ours, not Rick's. From Karakamsa lagna (the > >Navamsa placement of the Atmakaraka planet), one can see the passage into > >the next lifetime. If one is to attain Moksha, then the following must be > >seen: The 12th from Karakamsa lagna should be aspected by benefics, > >particularly Jupiter and Moksha karaka Ketu (In Jaimini astrology, Ketu is > >a benefic, as it stirs the soul toward emancipation, and cessation of the > >repetitions of birth and death); the lord of the KA lagna itself, should be > >in benefic association, and disposed favorably toward the 12th house from > >Navamsa lagna; and finally the KA lagna should be aspected by benefics, > >especially Jupiter. In Rick Houck's chart, the Sun is the Atmakaraka > >planet (the planet attaining the highest degrees in its sign). Sun is > >vargottama in Pisces Navamsa, which is thus the Karakamsa lagna. > >Mr. K.N. Rao has been saying this for a long time that to see whether a >person attains moksha or not, see the twelfth house from Karkamsha Lagna. >See the fifth house from Atma-Karakamsha. Now this is to been seen in the >rashi chart itself and not in the navamsha as the Karakamsha, as he says, is >the Navamsha Rashi where Atmakarak is placed and that particular rashi in >birth chart becomes Karakamsha Lagna. I have tried this approach too, namely putting the KA lagna back in the Rashi chart, and seeing its relation to the Atmakaraka, lagna, and other planets. However, this is a novel approach, and is not strictly Parasari. Some astrologers, as K.N. Rao told me personally, do this in many places in North India. It is not, however, a traditional approach as per shastras. Specifically, Parasara instructs that in order to see Moksha, as well as the Ishta-devata of the native, see the 12th from the actual karakamsa lagna, i.e. the sign placement in the Navamsa chart itself. See the section covering Karakamsa in BPHS for details. You will find this in the Jaimini Upadesa sutras as well. >Further Mr. Koch, we in India never lament death as for us, it is the new >journey for the departed Soul. Its a new beginning of life and therefore, we >offer prayers so that the departed soul attains moksha, if the almighty has >so willed for him. This was the whole point of my previous post. No, the fact of the soul's Eternality, and his passing to another body at death in accordance with his accountability to karmas, is not just an Indian philosophy. Indeed, the principle of "the wise lament neither for the living nor for the dead" was enunciated by Sri Krsna in the Bhagavad-gita, for all people, of all times to be enlightened by. Still, we should not be so hardened in philosophy, to not feel a real loss when a great astrologer and friend like Rick Houck passes from our midst, even if he does attain Moksha thereafter. With regards, Robert ===================================== Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer 760 NW Broken Arrow Rd. Bend, OR. 97701-9037 Phone: 541-318-0248 visit <http://www.robertkoch.com> or e-mail rk. rk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 11, 2001 Report Share Posted January 11, 2001 > > >Further Mr. Koch, we in India never lament death as for us, it is the new > >journey for the departed Soul. Its a new beginning of life and therefore, we > >offer prayers so that the departed soul attains moksha, if the almighty has > >so willed for him. >,,,,,,,,,,,, > Still, we should not be so hardened in philosophy, > to not feel a real loss when a great astrologer and friend like Rick Houck > passes from our midst, even if he does attain Moksha thereafter. Dear Manoj/ Robert, 1. When I appealed to all to "pray for" Richard I did not mean "hold him back from moksha", but pray FOR him, that he regains health and vitality on earth or gets transferred in peace. I do not know if anyone except Chris and a couple of others prayed at 00:00 hours GMT, but I kept awake and did so! Various discussions have taken place on the list about death and the the great effects of the Mrithyunjaya mantra, how to save Tom, Dick and Harry! What is wrong with saving Richard, a very useful member of the community? If his chart shows moksha, he will get it anyhow. Why should it not be 30 or 40 years later? Why does anyone go to a doctor? If my chart does not show moksha, but I get ill, do I go to the doctor to prolong my life - or to postpone my damnation? Why have doctors, ayureda etc. at all? Live, and die at the earliest opportunity! The great claims for jyothish, mantras etc. is that they bring us nearer to God. What is wrong in having a dialogue with God? What is wrong in saying, " We want our brother to be healthy and active amongst us for some more time! If you cannot allow this, let him depart without pain!"? The chart shows a weak moment, HE SHALL DIE! Have you never heard of "Gandas"? The Nadis frequently mention these: "if he survives this ganda, then...." Nothing in Cosmos is absolutely fixed,; if it were so, it would be DEAD! 2. Manoj, please go on a long journey through India, if you can afford it! It is great to think of India as a political unit, but meaningless to ignore its endless variety. The words "We in India-..." has NO MEANING WHATSOEVER! India is like Europe, Norwegian customs do not apply to Sicily! The customs of Himachalpradesh do not apply to Tamilnad. 3. Sorrowing for the dead is at first a personal matter. The departure of a loved one can for the moment be borne "stoically" - but this stoicism is an illusion: it is shock, that prevents tears from flowing! Sometime later the dam bursts and one weeps into his pillow! We may console ourselves, but only TIME heals the scar! Offering prayers for the dead is not "Hindu" but universal, done in all religions! Hardly any community throws its dead on to the garbage heap unceremoniously. Even animals like elephants and dogs and dolphins have a "ceremony" to take leave of the dead! Perhaps all animals, we do not know enough! Lamentation for the dead is a practice amongst many Indian communities, all over India. As soon as a person dies the women start lamenting, no matter whether the person was loved or not! In fact even paid "lamenters" are engaged to lament, who know nothing about the dead person: they weep crying out "You have left your wife... son ... etc helpless" etc. This is considered NECESSARY! Sorry, Manoj, but I get worked up when anyone says "We in Idia...", taking his or her state or province as universally applicable to the whole sub-continent - it ignores the existence of all others! The US is much bigger than India, but in India there are many many more differences. The nearest equivalent is Europe. I get irritated when someone in Europe asks, "How do you say ´good morning´ in the indian language?" I then ask back, "How does one say ´good morning´in the European language?" .......... As Robert says, let us not get so intellectual and philosophical that we cannot feel sorry for the suffering and departure of a friend, a loved one, a good soul. Let us be human, not mere pundits! Let us help as best we can, by prayer at least! regards Mani Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 11, 2001 Report Share Posted January 11, 2001 Anyway, we shall continue our struggle here, while Rick - sooner than the rest of us - gets a birth on planes of consciousness and spiritual ecstasy that we cannot fathom. So for whom do we truly lament? Rick's early passing, or our having to continue life on the plane of Samsara (birth and death) for the time being? Still, it is true, that he will be dearly missed, but some of us will get to meet him on the other side, don't know where, don't know when, but we will indeed meet again some sunny day. With regards, Robert ===================================== Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer 760 NW Broken Arrow Rd. Bend, OR. 97701-9037 Phone: 541-318-0248 visit <http://www.robertkoch.com> or e-mail rk. rk Dear Robert, Thank you for your thorough, educative and unsightfull post- great analysis, that will certainly help me, and all listers, I guess, in understanding and and thinking this issue in such an enlightening and analytical way. I am so glad to see you on the list! I quoted just the last paragraph of your post (I will learn from your analysis, but I am unable to comment, due to my knowledge-limits), because I've always had a strong opinion about that, the same as yours. The pain is with those who stay, not with one who leaves- he is liberated, in fact. " So for whom do we truly lament?" sounds as a right question to me. For ourselves- those who stay behind him, I'd say- be they his family, students, readers.. Best regards, Anna gjlist- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 11, 2001 Report Share Posted January 11, 2001 Dear Mani, I don't see any contradiction between Robert's and your opinion. You just put it another way..another angle.. Which is true, also. (By the way, I did pray for Richard- not being specific, if he is to leave this world, as it seems necessary, to go without pain., or to be healed- whether he is ready for "moksha" or not). And lamenting for the dead is widespread around the world, not only in India- it's in my view, at least in the culture that I came from- something we "owe" to the person who died, paying respect- and there is also the real immense pain that the family and those who loved the person, feel. It doesn't make the question "for whom are we lamenting?" obsolete. On the contrary. The pain that I've been feeling about a loss of anybody from my family, father in particular, is a complex feeling: painful awareness that support (that I was taking for granted) won't be there for me, guilt about things that I did/or missed to do.. That's human reaction... Unavoidable, I guess.. But, honestly, we feel sorry for ourselves, because one who died is beyond that level of pain, fortunately... Well, that's my feeling... I don't mind dying- I am just afraid that it may be wrong in the God's eyes, and it's horrifying to imagine the pain of those whom I love, and who would suffer the loss. If I take a broader perspective on this issue, lamenting and pain over the death of "significant others" is in it's root fairly selfish. As is depression egocentric, IMHO.. But human, anyway.. Anna - subra gjlist Thursday, January 11, 2001 3:14 PM Re: [gjlist] Re: Death and Dying > > >Further Mr. Koch, we in India never lament death as for us, it is the new > >journey for the departed Soul. Its a new beginning of life and therefore, we > >offer prayers so that the departed soul attains moksha, if the almighty has > >so willed for him. >,,,,,,,,,,,, > Still, we should not be so hardened in philosophy, > to not feel a real loss when a great astrologer and friend like Rick Houck > passes from our midst, even if he does attain Moksha thereafter. Dear Manoj/ Robert, 1. When I appealed to all to "pray for" Richard I did not mean "hold him back from moksha", but pray FOR him, that he regains health and vitality on earth or gets transferred in peace. I do not know if anyone except Chris and a couple of others prayed at 00:00 hours GMT, but I kept awake and did so! Various discussions have taken place on the list about death and the the great effects of the Mrithyunjaya mantra, how to save Tom, Dick and Harry! What is wrong with saving Richard, a very useful member of the community? If his chart shows moksha, he will get it anyhow. Why should it not be 30 or 40 years later? Why does anyone go to a doctor? If my chart does not show moksha, but I get ill, do I go to the doctor to prolong my life - or to postpone my damnation? Why have doctors, ayureda etc. at all? Live, and die at the earliest opportunity! The great claims for jyothish, mantras etc. is that they bring us nearer to God. What is wrong in having a dialogue with God? What is wrong in saying, " We want our brother to be healthy and active amongst us for some more time! If you cannot allow this, let him depart without pain!"? The chart shows a weak moment, HE SHALL DIE! Have you never heard of "Gandas"? The Nadis frequently mention these: "if he survives this ganda, then...." Nothing in Cosmos is absolutely fixed,; if it were so, it would be DEAD! 2. Manoj, please go on a long journey through India, if you can afford it! It is great to think of India as a political unit, but meaningless to ignore its endless variety. The words "We in India-..." has NO MEANING WHATSOEVER! India is like Europe, Norwegian customs do not apply to Sicily! The customs of Himachalpradesh do not apply to Tamilnad. 3. Sorrowing for the dead is at first a personal matter. The departure of a loved one can for the moment be borne "stoically" - but this stoicism is an illusion: it is shock, that prevents tears from flowing! Sometime later the dam bursts and one weeps into his pillow! We may console ourselves, but only TIME heals the scar! Offering prayers for the dead is not "Hindu" but universal, done in all religions! Hardly any community throws its dead on to the garbage heap unceremoniously. Even animals like elephants and dogs and dolphins have a "ceremony" to take leave of the dead! Perhaps all animals, we do not know enough! Lamentation for the dead is a practice amongst many Indian communities, all over India. As soon as a person dies the women start lamenting, no matter whether the person was loved or not! In fact even paid "lamenters" are engaged to lament, who know nothing about the dead person: they weep crying out "You have left your wife... son ... etc helpless" etc. This is considered NECESSARY! Sorry, Manoj, but I get worked up when anyone says "We in Idia...", taking his or her state or province as universally applicable to the whole sub-continent - it ignores the existence of all others! The US is much bigger than India, but in India there are many many more differences. The nearest equivalent is Europe. I get irritated when someone in Europe asks, "How do you say ´good morning´ in the indian language?" I then ask back, "How does one say ´good morning´in the European language?" .......... As Robert says, let us not get so intellectual and philosophical that we cannot feel sorry for the suffering and departure of a friend, a loved one, a good soul. Let us be human, not mere pundits! Let us help as best we can, by prayer at least! regards Mani gjlist- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2001 Report Share Posted January 12, 2001 Hello Robert, Thanks for your kind post. I normally dont take up leads and get into controversies. Have you read Mr. K.N. Rao's Karkamsha and Mandook Dasha wherein he has very clearly shown what works. For me, Karkamsha works only in the Rashi Chart and when I put it in Navamsha, I call it Swamsha. I have read BPHS and you mention about Updesha Sutras by Sanjay Rath. Those are his views and he is free to hold them. For me, the workable methodology is what works, not which has been advocated. I seldom deviate from classical dictas of astrology. >I have tried this approach too, namely putting the KA lagna back in the Rashi chart, and seeing its relation to the Atmakaraka, lagna, and other planets. However, this is a novel approach, and is not strictly Parasari. Some astrologers, as K.N. Rao told me personally, do this in many places in North India. It is not, however, a traditional approach as per shastras. Specifically, Parasara instructs that in order to see Moksha, as well as the Ishta-devata of the native, see the 12th from the actual karakamsa lagna, i.e. the sign placement in the Navamsa chart itself. See the section covering Karakamsa in BPHS for details. You will find this in the Jaimini Upadesa sutras as well. **Indeed, the principle of "the wise lament neither for the living nor for the dead" was enunciated by Sri Krsna in the Bhagavad-gita, for all people, of all times to be enlightened by. Still, we should not be so hardened in philosophy, to not feel a real loss when a great astrologer and friend like Rick Houck passes from our midst, even if he does attain Moksha thereafter.*** You perhaps missed the beginning of my post, which I started with a prayer for him, the Mahamrityunja Mantra. with best regards, Manoj _______________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2001 Report Share Posted January 12, 2001 Dear Mani, You missed my post clearly is what I can see from what you write. I began my post with Mahamrityunja Mantra for him. And when I said, "we in India..." I never meant that it should be applicable universally. I do not know how much have you travelled through India, but for me (god gave me the energy and time) India is one unit, and I have travelled throughout. Now this travelled throughout does not mean sight-seeing. I am well conversant with the customs being followed by Tamilians, (Iyers, Iyengars, Mudaliyars) and Kerala, and Andhra and Karnataka and Himachal Pradesh and you name it and I have it. My only purpose for saying that was to tell the list what Gita has said. I never try to enter into debates or controversies or ...... or ...... or .......... I just try to sincerely follow what is being said on the list and post my views, whenever I feel like and the matter interests me. So dont feel bad, even in future when I say, "we in India...." because, you could be conversant with the customs and rituals being followed in India, but you would appreciate, there are many on the list, who are not in know of it. So bear it. with best regards, Manoj _______________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2001 Report Share Posted January 12, 2001 Understanding death is so very hard........ as the mother of a young child that died many years ago I can tell you that the anguish is emotional, spiritual, mental and very physical.... I wrote this story for my own healing .... and for others that would find solace there..... I will provide birthdata of my child should anyone wish to see his chart ... he did at 22 months old of a brain tumor... I have never fully recovered.....his life and his death affected me profoundly. One little aside here.... I now have a grandson, (my 2nd grandson) born 30 years after Trent was... he was born on Trent's birthday.... Trent was born 9-17-1968 ------ Mitchel was born 9-17-1998..... I do not know what this means... perhaps simply the tendency of families to share birthdates..... I myself was born on my own Father's birthday... but it does give me pause.... http://www.shemystery.com/littleAngel.html Richard Houck has been in my thoughts for a number of months now.... I bought his book "The Astrology of Death" in 1996. As I read it I was compelled to write to him via his fax machine.... I do not remember now what it was that I said to him ... but I know that I was excited about his book and shared that with him... He was wonderful..... he not only replied to my fax ... but sent me a note expressing amusement at my excitement about his book and a couple of sheets of colored photos of himself and his wife... Recently I had misplaced his book.... and after looking for it for a few months.... I could not be without it in my astrology library so I went and rebought it.... This time I kept it handy where I would see it daily ... and each time I did I would think of Richard and his lovely wife ... and the kindness that he had shown me.... Now is I read this list and his home page I do pray for him ... for his Divine path to be fulfilled in the most perfect way as his Soul has chosen ... as I prayed for my son in his final hours.... I could not pray for him to live ... not knowing as I did that if he lived he would live in a nightmare or pain and treatments that would only prolong his life a few years.... I prayed only the simple prayer.... "Thy Will Be Done".... it seemed to be the only prayer possible.... My Loving thoughts go to Richard and all those who love and care for him, especially his wife... I believe her name is Paula.... and for the rest of us that will miss his presence here with us.... At the same time I am grieving all the losses that are happening in the world now.... there are so many... so very many.... And I know it is part of the Divine Plan ... but it is very hard to see the reasons from this earthly view... BeLoved, Bonnie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2001 Report Share Posted January 12, 2001 - AnMaR <anmar <gjlist > Thursday, January 11, 2001 9:26 PM Re: [gjlist] Re: Death and Dying Dear Mani, I don't see any contradiction between Robert's and your opinion. You just put it another way..another angle.. Which is true, also. (By the way, I did pray for Richard- not being specific, if he is to leave this world, as it seems necessary, to go without pain., or to be healed- whether he is ready for "moksha" or not). And lamenting for the dead is widespread around the world, not only in India- it's in my view, at least in the culture that I came from- something we "owe" to the person who died, paying respect- and there is also the real immense pain that the family and those who loved the person, feel. It doesn't make the question "for whom are we lamenting?" obsolete. On the contrary. The pain that I've been feeling about a loss of anybody from my family, father in particular, is a complex feeling: painful awareness that support (that I was taking for granted) won't be there for me, guilt about things that I did/or missed to do.. That's human reaction... Unavoidable, I guess.. But, honestly, we feel sorry for ourselves, because one who died is beyond that level of pain, fortunately... Well, that's my feeling... I don't mind dying- I am just afraid that it may be wrong in the God's eyes, and it's horrifying to imagine the pain of those whom I love, and who would suffer the loss. If I take a broader perspective on this issue, lamenting and pain over the death of "significant others" is in it's root fairly selfish. As is depression egocentric, IMHO.. But human, anyway.. Anna - subra gjlist Thursday, January 11, 2001 3:14 PM Re: [gjlist] Re: Death and Dying > > >Further Mr. Koch, we in India never lament death as for us, it is the new > >journey for the departed Soul. Its a new beginning of life and therefore, we > >offer prayers so that the departed soul attains moksha, if the almighty has > >so willed for him. >,,,,,,,,,,,, > Still, we should not be so hardened in philosophy, > to not feel a real loss when a great astrologer and friend like Rick Houck > passes from our midst, even if he does attain Moksha thereafter. Dear Manoj/ Robert, 1. When I appealed to all to "pray for" Richard I did not mean "hold him back from moksha", but pray FOR him, that he regains health and vitality on earth or gets transferred in peace. I do not know if anyone except Chris and a couple of others prayed at 00:00 hours GMT, but I kept awake and did so! Various discussions have taken place on the list about death and the the great effects of the Mrithyunjaya mantra, how to save Tom, Dick and Harry! What is wrong with saving Richard, a very useful member of the community? If his chart shows moksha, he will get it anyhow. Why should it not be 30 or 40 years later? Why does anyone go to a doctor? If my chart does not show moksha, but I get ill, do I go to the doctor to prolong my life - or to postpone my damnation? Why have doctors, ayureda etc. at all? Live, and die at the earliest opportunity! The great claims for jyothish, mantras etc. is that they bring us nearer to God. What is wrong in having a dialogue with God? What is wrong in saying, " We want our brother to be healthy and active amongst us for some more time! If you cannot allow this, let him depart without pain!"? The chart shows a weak moment, HE SHALL DIE! Have you never heard of "Gandas"? The Nadis frequently mention these: "if he survives this ganda, then...." Nothing in Cosmos is absolutely fixed,; if it were so, it would be DEAD! 2. Manoj, please go on a long journey through India, if you can afford it! It is great to think of India as a political unit, but meaningless to ignore its endless variety. The words "We in India-..." has NO MEANING WHATSOEVER! India is like Europe, Norwegian customs do not apply to Sicily! The customs of Himachalpradesh do not apply to Tamilnad. 3. Sorrowing for the dead is at first a personal matter. The departure of a loved one can for the moment be borne "stoically" - but this stoicism is an illusion: it is shock, that prevents tears from flowing! Sometime later the dam bursts and one weeps into his pillow! We may console ourselves, but only TIME heals the scar! Offering prayers for the dead is not "Hindu" but universal, done in all religions! Hardly any community throws its dead on to the garbage heap unceremoniously. Even animals like elephants and dogs and dolphins have a "ceremony" to take leave of the dead! Perhaps all animals, we do not know enough! Lamentation for the dead is a practice amongst many Indian communities, all over India. As soon as a person dies the women start lamenting, no matter whether the person was loved or not! In fact even paid "lamenters" are engaged to lament, who know nothing about the dead person: they weep crying out "You have left your wife... son ... etc helpless" etc. This is considered NECESSARY! Sorry, Manoj, but I get worked up when anyone says "We in Idia...", taking his or her state or province as universally applicable to the whole sub-continent - it ignores the existence of all others! The US is much bigger than India, but in India there are many many more differences. The nearest equivalent is Europe. I get irritated when someone in Europe asks, "How do you say ´good morning´ in the indian language?" I then ask back, "How does one say ´good morning´in the European language?" .......... As Robert says, let us not get so intellectual and philosophical that we cannot feel sorry for the suffering and departure of a friend, a loved one, a good soul. Let us be human, not mere pundits! Let us help as best we can, by prayer at least! regards Mani gjlist- gjlist- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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