True and Mean nodes: Mu'Min

[Guest guest]

Om Sri Gurubhyo Namah

 

Hello Mu and Purushottam --

 

At 01:14 AM 1/18/01 +0000, Purushottam wrote:

 

>I also get Rahu in Libra in your Navamsha. I think it may be because

>you're using the true nodes, while Robert, the other programs and I use

>the mean nodes. So the other's aren't actually incorrect. While I have no

>major problem with the true nodes, the classics say that they always have

>retrograde motion. This, of course, is only true with the mean nodes.

>Other than that, it's anyone's choice.

 

Yes, this is exactly the case. If we calculate the True nodes for Mu'Min's

chart, we get Rahu at 14:23 Pi, whereas Ra is at 12:45 according to Mean

nodes. "True" is not actually true at all, because, as Purushottam says,

as by definition the nodes must always be retrograde. According to the

True nodes, the Moon's oscillation is taken into account, which evidently

engenders a stationary, and in some cases, forward progression of

Rahu. This is not correct, as per Parasara. In fact, you will find that

transit Rahu or Ketu will correspond with exact event timing when they

reach natal planets, whereas events-to-transits will be off by a few days

if you use the true nodes. This, at least, is my experience of 16 years

doing Jyotish.

 

Anyway, Mu, I think you said your Navamsa ascendant was Libra (?) If I

have your birth chart correct, the lagna is 07:15 Sg. This puts the

Navamsa lagna in Gemini, and thus you should have (using Mean nodes),

Moon/Rahu in the 5th house in the Navamsa chart.

 

With regards,

Robert

 

=====================================

Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer

760 NW Broken Arrow Rd.

Bend, OR. 97701-9037

Phone: 541-318-0248

visit <http://www.robertkoch.com> or e-mail

rk. rk

[Guest guest]

Dear Robert,

 

Without taking sides, here a question:

 

You wrote:

 

" In fact, you will find that

transit Rahu or Ketu will correspond with exact event timing when they

reach natal planets, whereas events-to-transits will be off by a few days

if you use the true nodes. This, at least, is my experience of 16 years

doing Jyotish."

 

 

Rahu/kethu is pretty slow-moving, 9 years for half a round, 18 for the full

zodiac. Can you really pin-point transit dates? I have rarely found anything

really happening on the day of any transit ......

 

The idea of aspects would be more explicable with the true nodes, as actual

centres of some concentrated energy. But the mean blurs this concept. This is

analogous to the question of which counts, geocentric or parallaxed moon. Here

at least we are dealing with two actual positions, but with rahu/kethu the mean

location is only hypothetical.

 

Did the ancient texts specifically state that only the mean position counts, or

was it a "simplification" since the difference is usually very small? The

accuracy of the Surya Siddhantha is definitely not better than 1 degree (can be

even more out) and perhaps values under this were considered negligible. I know

you will object to this saying: How could vargas like 60th division be conceived

and used if accuracy was less than 15 minutes? I have answer except to say:

information received need not mean that observation was exact! All vargas change

if ayanamsa is different and as Sanjay once said, every astrological family

(tradition) in India has its own ayanamsa!

 

regards

Mani

[Guest guest]

Dear Mani,

 

Namaste -

 

You've made some good points. Let me respond as follows:

 

1. My guru and I take the statements of Parasara as literally as

possible. Thus, if the nodes are said to be always retrograde, how could

that work with True nodes, as they are sometimes stationary, and sometimes

forward in direction?

 

2. I have watched transits of both true and mean nodes carefully over the

past 10 or so years. In some cases, the orb between the two can be as much

as two degrees, or slightly more. This can put, as in Mu'Min's case, the

nodes in different Navamsas, which raises the challenge to find out which

ones really work more correctly.

 

3. I go by my experience: with true nodes-to-natal graha transits, not

much happened when the exact *hit* occurred. The mean nodal transits,

however, increased in intensity at the times of the exact hit.

 

4. Further, I have done a lot of studies with Narayana dasa, through which

the dasa can be calculated for specific varga charts. Thus, a Narayana

dasa for Dasamsa, for Navamsa, etc. Now, in that dasa, the presence of

Ketu in a rasi causes the sequence of the dasas to reverse their normal

order. If Ketu is in the wrong sign in that varga chart (as a result of

using true nodes), all the calculations will go wrong. The correct

calculations, with dasas against events, occurred due to use of the mean

nodes, and not the true.

 

5. Many accepted methodologies that we use and take for granted in

astrology, do not have a "scientific" basis. For example, ponder the

following:

 

-- How do signs aspect?

-- How do transit planets influence/effect natal planets?

-- How do Upagrahas (shadow planets) wreak havoc, if they are only shadows?

-- How do progressions work (western progressions, such as Tertiary,

Secondary, etc.)? In fact, they do work, if you've ever noticed them

against natal planets. [by the way, those progressions were originally

taught by Manu in a book called Manu Smriti, and were not invented by

western astrologers]

-- Why should the natal position of the Moon have such a big influence, as

to schedule all the events of one's life, as if in a blueprint?

 

So you see, eventually we have to give up much of the need to have

scientific verification, or astronomical reasoning, as to why astrology

works. That's part of the mystery, and astrologers love it.

 

With regards,

Robert

 

=====================================

Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer

760 NW Broken Arrow Rd.

Bend, OR. 97701-9037

Phone: 541-318-0248

visit <http://www.robertkoch.com> or e-mail

rk. rk

[Guest guest]

Robert A. Koch wrote:

> Dear Mani,

You've made some good points. Let me respond as follows:

 

................................

 

Dear Robert, Andrew, (and all others too),

 

Thank you for detailed answer. And for saying my questions were good points!

The problem is that jyothish fascinates me, but I see it as a visitor to a big

aquarium, who sees wonderful things behind a glass pane! I have snorkeled on the

coral riffs of Arabia and have seen some of these things in nature, but have

never dived deep enough to meet the more impressive denizens of the ocean.

 

I have not studied astrology, western or eastern, with the aim of learning

the subject professionally. My interest has always been only to understand

things, to understand holistically the Creation, the Creator and His purpose in

Creation.

 

I was torn between three directions: english literature, philosophy and the

sciences. The literature brought me an insight into human thinking and God`s

purpose with Man, philosophy insight into God´s final aim for us, the sciences

the insight into his methods of operation and construction to achieve his aim.

 

Finally I became a ships/plant engineer, then an engineer for heating and

air-conditioning. In the last capacity I had to play "God" as weather-maker:

provide an agreeable environment under all circumstances - which could vary

enormously!

 

But meanwhile I delved into philosophy, religion, archaeology, palaeontology,

history, philology, biology, physiology, zoology, animal behaviour, nuclear

physics, homoeopathy, psychology, palmistry, numerology, western astrology - at

first tropical, then absolute sidereal - and finally came to learn jyothish, at

65 years of age! Actually I had bought many books on jyhish - Varahamihira etc.

years ago, but had no time to read them. Astrology was NOT my aim or chosen

profession. .... Although some 30 years ago I did make a contribution to it,

that was acclaimed by many western siderealists and tropicalists! In fact, since

then I had hardly done any astrology, not even sidereal.

 

It is my wish to understand. One can say, "It is so because the sages said so!"

Then the study of jyothish becomes a sterile application of rules, without any

attempt to understand the principle or suiting the individual: like what often

happens in state offices! But one can also say, "This is what the teacher said,

so let us try to understand it in practice and try to find out the principle

behind it!" This brings in life to the subject, makes it "scientific"!

 

In all the natural sciences there are fundamental axioms - things that cannot be

explained any further. These axioms are relatively few and are soon pushed into

the background, for the derived knowledge is comparitively huge. With astrology

we are confronted with a huge number of axioms, the derived information less

than one could expect - and is not very certain, there are always factors that

one has perhaps overlooked!

 

I agree that very little in astrology can as yet be explained by "science". But

I think the day will come, when science catches up and finds explanations.

Quantum physics has its own laws, as also spherical geometry, which differ from

the Newtonian and Euclidian. I do not reject anything because our science fails

to explain it, but try to discover the rules that could do so! We cannot apply

the scientific knowledge, but can try to apply the "scientific" methods.

 

Your answers do show this approach and I thank you once more for the replies.

Since I do not know the esotric mechanics of the spheres, I ask questions based

on astro-physics! Thanks for patience.

 

 

> -- How do progressions work (western progressions, such as Tertiary,

> Secondary, etc.)? In fact, they do work, if you've ever noticed them

> against natal planets. [by the way, those progressions were originally

> taught by Manu in a book called Manu Smriti, and were not invented by

> western astrologers]

>

 

Here you are actually supporting my perpetual contention: I say that western

astrology, except for the zodiac, is a child of vedic astrology. Fagan was

convinced that Petrosiris was Parasara. He and Firebrace used navamsa and

dwadasamsa charts. I am convinced that the "children" of Brighu, the Phrygians,

spread astrology in the west.

 

regards

Mani

[Guest guest]

Dear Mani,

 

You've had a full life- what a blessing! And never-ending curiosity, that keeps

our spirit alive, despite everything. Being that way myself, thirsty and excited

about knowledge and understanding- I consider that as a

blessing, as well. Never bored (full head of "ghosts", a?). One may consider

that as defensive mechanism- so what? We all cope with life in different ways, I

guess.

 

Best wishes,

 

Anna

I was torn between three directions: english literature, philosophy and the

sciences. The literature brought me an insight into human thinking and God`s

purpose with Man, philosophy insight into God´s final aim for us, the sciences

the insight into his methods of operation and construction to achieve his aim.

 

Finally I became a ships/plant engineer, then an engineer for heating and

air-conditioning. In the last capacity I had to play "God" as weather-maker:

provide an agreeable environment under all circumstances - which could vary

enormously!

 

But meanwhile I delved into philosophy, religion, archaeology, palaeontology,

history, philology, biology, physiology, zoology, animal behaviour, nuclear

physics, homoeopathy, psychology, palmistry, numerology, western astrology -

at

first tropical, then absolute sidereal - and finally came to learn jyothish,

at

65 years of age! Actually I had bought many books on jyhish - Varahamihira

etc.

years ago, but had no time to read them. Astrology was NOT my aim or chosen

profession. .... Although some 30 years ago I did make a contribution to it,

that was acclaimed by many western siderealists and tropicalists! In fact,

since

then I had hardly done any astrology, not even sidereal.

 

It is my wish to understand. One can say, "It is so because the sages said

so!"

Then the study of jyothish becomes a sterile application of rules, without any

attempt to understand the principle or suiting the individual: like what often

happens in state offices! But one can also say, "This is what the teacher

said,

so let us try to understand it in practice and try to find out the principle

behind it!" This brings in life to the subject, makes it "scientific"!

 

In all the natural sciences there are fundamental axioms - things that cannot

be

explained any further. These axioms are relatively few and are soon pushed

into

the background, for the derived knowledge is comparitively huge. With

astrology

we are confronted with a huge number of axioms, the derived information less

than one could expect - and is not very certain, there are always factors that

one has perhaps overlooked!

 

I agree that very little in astrology can as yet be explained by "science".

But

I think the day will come, when science catches up and finds explanations.

Quantum physics has its own laws, as also spherical geometry, which differ

from

the Newtonian and Euclidian. I do not reject anything because our science

fails

to explain it, but try to discover the rules that could do so! We cannot apply

the scientific knowledge, but can try to apply the "scientific" methods.

 

Your answers do show this approach and I thank you once more for the replies.

Since I do not know the esotric mechanics of the spheres, I ask questions

based

on astro-physics! Thanks for patience.

 

 

> -- How do progressions work (western progressions, such as Tertiary,

> Secondary, etc.)? In fact, they do work, if you've ever noticed them

> against natal planets. [by the way, those progressions were originally

> taught by Manu in a book called Manu Smriti, and were not invented by

> western astrologers]

>

 

Here you are actually supporting my perpetual contention: I say that western

astrology, except for the zodiac, is a child of vedic astrology. Fagan was

convinced that Petrosiris was Parasara. He and Firebrace used navamsa and

dwadasamsa charts. I am convinced that the "children" of Brighu, the

Phrygians,

spread astrology in the west.

 

regards

Mani

 

 

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