Where is my moon please?

[Guest guest]

Well, I wasn't going to mention this until I'd thought this through some

more, but since you brought it up, at the risk of sounding like I'm saying

"me too" ... me, too.

 

I've been putting together a detailed panchanga for the Chicago area for the

year beginning in March, and for the past several weeks, I've been

scratching my head trying to reconcile the lunar longitudes I've been

getting from GJ 2.26 with those I've been getting from Winstar, Halloran

AstrolDeluxe, RedShift 3 (planetarium software), my own software which is

based upon the algorithms specified in Meeus, and the U.S. Naval

Observatory's almanac.

 

I haven't gotten the same answer twice, even when using the tropical zodiac,

but it does seem that GJ disagrees the most, and only on the lunar

longitudes--everything else is within a minute or so. As I recall, the

discrepancy is generally less than about 30 minutes of arc, so it doesn't

keep me awake at night--but then again, half a degree of lunar longitude is

about, what, an hour of clock time? For sub-sub periods, of course, that's

significant.

 

My guess--and it's just that--is that one or more of these products are not

calculating the solar pertubations of the moon correctly, since that

accounts for an error on that order of magnitude. Or, perhaps GJ uses more

traditional algorithms (such as from the Surya Siddhanta). Or, I'm totally

out of line. Das?

 

So, for what it's worth, I've found that WinStar comes the closest to

agreeing with the USNO (which I am reluctant to dispute), differing by at

most half a sidereal minute on the hour angle. Halloran differs by only a

tiny fraction more on the very few dates I've compared (I've always liked

his software). Dunno about SF; perhaps Chris or someone with SF would

plug-and-chug that for us. So, if we were to accept that, that yields a

tropical longitude of 6 Aqu 50 mnts 37 secs, Lahiri longitude 13 Cap 20 mnts

52 secs.

 

For comparison, the Para Research ephemeris gives a tropical longitude of 6

Aqu 52 after linear interpolation.

 

Your moon, then, is about 25.1% 22-Sravan, for calculating your planetary

periods.

 

jpd

 

PS Speaking of the Surya Siddhanta, is there a better English translation

than the Burgess of 1858? One could perhaps excuse my pessimism at a

translation by one with religious conversion motives.

[Guest guest]

Om Krishnaaya Namah

 

Hello Phil,

 

> I've been putting together a detailed panchanga for the Chicago area for

the

> year beginning in March, and for the past several weeks, I've been

> scratching my head trying to reconcile the lunar longitudes I've been

> getting from GJ 2.26 with those I've been getting from Winstar, Halloran

> AstrolDeluxe, RedShift 3 (planetarium software), my own software which is

> based upon the algorithms specified in Meeus, and the U.S. Naval

> Observatory's almanac.

>

> I haven't gotten the same answer twice, even when using the tropical

zodiac,

> but it does seem that GJ disagrees the most, and only on the lunar

> longitudes

 

It is highly likely that anyone who finds discrepancies between the Moon's

longitude in GJ 2.26 and in other programs, has the Lunar Parallax feature

in Goravani Jyotish turned on in the Main Prefs window. My personal opinion

is that these should be played around with, and I find this to be a more

accurate position when considering dashas etc. I also think it seems

logical, as it considers the Moon's position from the place of birth, not a

generalised point for the whole world. The bad news is that if you want to

change to geocentric again, after doing the correction in the main prefs

window, you'll have to recalculate all your charts.

 

Good Luck,

 

Haribol!,

 

Pursottam

[Guest guest]

Jaya Sri Krsna

 

Pursottam--

 

Pamho.

 

> It is highly likely that anyone who finds discrepancies between the Moon's

> longitude in GJ 2.26 and in other programs, has the Lunar Parallax feature

> in Goravani Jyotish turned on

 

This is precisely what the issue is! Without correcting for parallax,

GJ yields the same longitude as just about everyone else. I remember

playing around with parallax correction some time ago, but didn't notice

much of a difference, presumably (now) because the moon was close to

transiting the meridian, which is entirely a function of not grasping the

effect of parallax on close planets.

 

So, Angie, it's back in your lap. Parallax is the apparent distortion

caused by looking at a nearby object from two different perspectives; GJ can

compute (your option; it's probably the default) the apparent longitude from

your location or from a hypothetical earth center (prolly the default on

others). If you believe that parallax has an effect, go with what GJ tells

you with its parallax correction on; if you don't, go with what the others

are saying.

 

> Haribol!

 

I think I shall go do precisely that right now! Dandavats to all.

 

jpd

[Guest guest]

Pursottam wrote:

> It is highly likely that anyone who finds discrepancies between the Moon's

> longitude in GJ 2.26 and in other programs, has the Lunar Parallax feature

> in Goravani Jyotish turned on in the Main Prefs window. My personal opinion

> is that these should be played around with, and I find this to be a more

> accurate position when considering dashas etc. I also think it seems

> logical, as it considers the Moon's position from the place of birth, not a

> generalised point for the whole world.

 

Dear Pursottam,

 

This brings up the the point that Robert and I are discussing. The parallaxed

moon does make sense if you look at things (astro)(physically). this implies

that planetary positions should be taken relative to the actual spatial location

of the place of birth - and that some geometrical/physical influence is

involved. That "rays" impinge on the baby and "determine" its fate, like the

genes determine the physiological development AND EVEN SAY HOW MANY TIMES ITS

CELLS WILL SPLIT, HOW LONG IT CAN LIVE! But the genes were already there, before

birth!

 

By similar logic the sun should also be paralled: it appears above the horizon

before its physical centre. For births at sunrise or sunset this can be a factor

to consider.

 

Even Ascendant is a questionable matter. The ecliptic degree corresponding to

the point due east at birth is not always the the degree rising at the same

latitude. AS an air-conditioning engineer I was faced with a peculiar situation:

 

For all northern latitudes above the tropic of cancer the sun is always SOUTH.

In fact the sun at MC was often called "southing", for when the sun stood

highest at noon, it was exactly in the south. According to this, for a house

with its northern wall running east to west, this wall should ALWAYS be in the

shadow. But this is not the case: early in the morning and late in the afternoon

the sun shines obliquely on this wall and warms it up!

 

The "location maps" - John Dro - etc illustrate this difference. The East Point

is different from Ascendant!

 

In short, the ascendant is "geocentric", not local! If so, it is best to stick

to geocentric values for all bodiues. If mean Rahu is more valid than true Rahu,

why should the apparent moon be better than its theoretical position? We are

children of the earth and what affects the earth is what affects us.

 

 

Tzere are "mysteries" even in everyday life: why does an Eskimo feel warm in an

igloo of ice? Why does an iced up fridge "refuse" to cool food quickly? There

are explanations, but these are not apparent to common sense.

 

The question of BHAVAS HAS NEVER been solved. For very northern latitudes it is

very difficult to find a suitable system. The best according to tradition is the

equal house in jyothish, dividing at 30 degree intervals, with the cusp as mid

point. I feel that this is is not right: the MC shoud be the mid-point of the

10th always, with equal divisions. This will make the 4th from the MC the lagna,

the Ac a point of sensitivity etc. ......

 

You, Pursottam, are the "brains" of our community and are young. Your Mercury is

very close to the sun: brilliance, but afraid of "independent" thinking. The

great jyothishis lived till some 2000 years ago, but the tradition was broken.

Now and then some have somehow kept the old tradition alive. But a person like

you should pick up the old thread and bring NEW LIGHT! Defending and quoting is

not progress, but ADDITION is. BE THE VARAHAMIHIRA OF THIS AGE! Try new fields!

 

Another question: the parallaxed moon either advances or retards the dasas. If

the results are better only by retardation or advance, the ayanamsa is

probably wrong, unless the amount varies. If only small differences are found,

the TOB may be incorrect. Before arriving at conclusions one must check cases

where the variation is appreciable - and explanations are relatively simple. By

using all the vargas and transits and upagrahas one can ALWAYS FIND A REASON FOR

ANY EVENT, EVEN WITH TOTALLY WRONG TOB! Sorry to say this, but it is true!

Proving any "rule" is not just bringing suitable evidence, but in showing how

the rule explains cases which apparently defy the rule!

 

regards

Mani

[Guest guest]

OM namah shivaya

 

Dear Phil,

 

> I've been putting together a detailed panchanga for the Chicago area for the

> year beginning in March, and for the past several weeks, I've been

 

I am in the process of writing a program to put together a detailed

panchangam. It is mostly done, and already has the following features.

 

All times use Local Time. Takes DST into account.

Start times for tithi, amrita-yoga sun-moon yoga, tithi,

nakshatras

Start-end times for local and global eclipses. (For solar eclipses,

tells you how much of sun will be eclipsed at peak...will tell you

when it will be visible from your vantage point)

Start times for changeover of planets into different houses,

and start/end times for retrograde motion

Takes extra/missed lunar months into account

Gives sunrise, sunset, moonrise, moonset times.

Rahu kalam, Gulika kalam, Yamagandam based on local sunrise/sunset

Finds julian date for event based on gregorian, solar or lunar calendar.

Festival generation code is not hard-coded. Adding a festival/event is

as simple as adding one line to a file.

Uses the Swiss Ephemeris for calculations

Generates a professional looking pdf file

 

(This is not meant as an ad. I have no intentions of selling the

program. I will make the pdf files for a wide variety of locations

freely avaiable. I am writing this program because there is no good

panchangam available for my area, and I don't want to hand calculate it

each year.)

 

I am having problems with the rules for calculating the julian day of

some festivals, and am hoping the knowledgable people in this list can

help me, or point me to the appropriate place.

 

If a festival takes place during the day on a tithi for a given month, and

that tithi occurs on two consecutive days, both with a prevalence of

that tithi between sunrise and sunset, on which day should the tithi

occur?

 

If this tithi takes place twice during the month (once at very

beginning, and then at very end), on which of these occurences will the

tithi occur?

 

I am hoping that there are standard rules to determine this, and that it

is not different for each festival. If it is the latter, pointers to

appropriate resources will be greatly appreciated.

 

yours,

 

ajit

 

--

Ajit Krishnan

ajit

http://publish.uwo.ca/~akrishna

[Guest guest]

Hey Angie and All:

 

Pursottam is right on this: disprepancies between Moon positions in GJ and

other programs are most likely due to the parallax correction feature being

left on in GJ. I checked Solar Fire and it has the standard geocentric

Moon at 13Cp20 41 while parallax position is 13Cp52 59 (lahiri). So

there's nothing "wrong" with GJ at all. But I think we knew that already.

:-)

 

Chris

[Guest guest]

Om Krishnaaya Namah

 

Hi Mani!

 

> By similar logic the sun should also be paralled: it appears above the

horizon

> before its physical centre. For births at sunrise or sunset this can be a

factor

> to consider.

>

> Even Ascendant is a questionable matter. The ecliptic degree corresponding

to

> the point due east at birth is not always the the degree rising at the

same

> latitude. AS an air-conditioning engineer I was faced with a peculiar

situation:

 

I agree. If possible, my personal feeling is that we should in fact have

evrything parallaxed. However, from the many discussions we've had on this

subject on the list, I remember reading that it only makes a significant

difference in the case of the Moon. How one defines significant is

debatable, but one assumes that it would mean more than a couple of minutes

of arc. Of course, many rectify charts to get certain lagnas in the Varga's.

However, who knows, perhaps it's not the TOB that's wrong - just the

ascendant! Also, while no direct references are given in the Jyotisha

Shaastra's, it is mentioned in the Siddhanta texts that one's calculations

should regularly be compared to those visible in the sky, to ensure

accuracy. To me, this seems to support parallax.

 

>

> The question of BHAVAS HAS NEVER been solved. For very northern latitudes

it is

> very difficult to find a suitable system. The best according to tradition

is the

> equal house in jyothish, dividing at 30 degree intervals, with the cusp as

mid

> point. I feel that this is is not right: the MC shoud be the mid-point of

the

> 10th always, with equal divisions. This will make the 4th from the MC the

lagna,

> the Ac a point of sensitivity etc. ......

 

I know what you mean here. If there's onw thing you learn from just gbasic

western astrology, it is how sensitive points like the midheaven are. It's

amazing the way that transits to these points bring about results. And of

course if one does use a house system such as that of Sripati, one sees all

this in Jyotish as well. However, it is very difficult to see how all this

plays a role in the North Pole or whatever. Who know's? Maybe it doesn't

matter that all the lagna's don't rise regularly there. Perhaps the fact

that so few are born there means that those who are were destined to have

those particular angles. It would certainly be fun to get charts of extreme

northern longitudes to see how transits to the four angles affects the lives

of the owner's. Of course, for now at least, the equal houses of Jyotish are

a tried and tested system, that work.

 

> Another question: the parallaxed moon either advances or retards the

dasas. If

> the results are better only by retardation or advance, the ayanamsa is

> probably wrong, unless the amount varies. If only small differences are

found,

> the TOB may be incorrect.

 

Yes I know what you mean. Generally, with a little rectification, this issue

does not seem to make a huge difference. However, in other cases such as my

own, one can rectify (but not too much - I know my TOB's not that far off),

and still won't get an expected dasha. You can of course play with

Ayanamsha, but this just seems to mess everything else up. Lahiri may not be

spot on, but it's not that far off either. The Mrtyu Bhaga's are of course

an extremely interesting area for ayanamsha research.

 

Also, while largely based on standard Vimshottari dasha's, I also tend to

find the Moon's position in Varga's to be more accurate. And the smaller

Nakshatra dasha's, such as Yogini, or Tribhagi Vimshottari etc. all of which

help add flavour, and strength to Vimshottari interpretation also seem to

work better IMHO. Of course, one is regularly bound to get some charts which

do not fit the parallax positions (e.g. Robert's :-), or those, such as

mine, which don't fit geocentric. Having started with geocentric, and

sensing something wrong right from the first glimpses into my own dasha's, I

have to say that in general I feel parallax works better.

 

> Before arriving at conclusions one must check cases

> where the variation is appreciable - and explanations are relatively

simple. By

> using all the vargas and transits and upagrahas one can ALWAYS FIND A

REASON FOR

> ANY EVENT, EVEN WITH TOTALLY WRONG TOB! Sorry to say this, but it is

true!

> Proving any "rule" is not just bringing suitable evidence, but in showing

how

> the rule explains cases which apparently defy the rule!

 

I agree. However the trick is in starting with a nice simple explantion with

the Rasi chart, and then going into the divisionals to find confirmation and

support that changing to parallax really has made things a lot easier to

see. In my own chart, events are so blatent that given a choice anybody with

a little knowldege and experience of Jyotish would have to pick the parallax

dasha sequence, if they were given a choice between the two, together with

event times.

 

Great 'chatting' to you again!

 

Pursottam

[Guest guest]

Hi, thank you Phil and Chris for clearing that up for me Angie

[Guest guest]

Pursottam wrote:

> Om Krishnaaya Namah

>

> Hi Mani!

> How one defines significant is

> debatable, but one assumes that it would mean more than a couple of minutes

> of arc.

 

 

Dear Grey Cells!

 

The parallax differences would be approx.:

Mercury and Mars: 15 seconds of arc

Sun (away from horizon) : 9 secs

Venus: 35 secs

jupiter: 2secs

saturn :1sec.

Moon: max around 1 degree and 2 secs.

 

For jupiter and beyond the difference is less than the accuracy of calculation!

The amount of accuracy for is sun 1 sec, moon 10 secs, others between 3 and 5

secs.

 

These differences would mean an equivalent difference for sun about 4 minutes in

TOB, neglecting initial error. mercury and mars: about 6 minutes, for venus

about 15 minutes, for moon 2 hours.

 

Sun at horizon can equal about 20 minutes (I believe!).

 

 

 

> Of course, many rectify charts to get certain lagnas in the Varga's.

> However, who knows, perhaps it's not the TOB that's wrong - just the

> ascendant! Also, while no direct references are given in the Jyotisha

> Shaastra's, it is mentioned in the Siddhanta texts that one's calculations

> should regularly be compared to those visible in the sky, to ensure

> accuracy.

 

 

> To me, this seems to support parallax.

 

Not necessarily. This ancient injunction holds good today, even otherwise,

astronomically. The dynamic system of the solar system is stable, but is

continually subject to aberrations. We have no really fixed points of reference,

nothing ever repeats itself. Every orbit is only a mean orbit and the relative

positions of the orbits either rotate or oscillate. The planets keep to their

orbits only within limited widths, but not exactly in the middle as a smooth

curve. all calculated positions have to be periodically corrected and used as

"new" starting points. The Nadis illustrate this: the positions they give for

Saturn and venus especially do not tally with positions calculated by our

programmes. The calculations as per Surya siddhantha also do not give the

positions given by programmes.

 

Hence one must conclude that the ancient writers conceded that their calculation

methods were not perfect and valid only for a relatively short period of time,

that periodic corrections were needed! They did not claim to have spoken the

last word, but called for continuous study and improvement - using scientific

methods, the first of which is observation!

 

> >

> > The question of BHAVAS HAS NEVER been solved. For very northern latitudes

> it is

> > very difficult to find a suitable system.........

> .........

> that so few are born there means that those who are were destined to have

> those particular angles. It would certainly be fun to get charts of extreme

> northern longitudes to see how transits to the four angles affects the lives

> of the owner's. Of course, for now at least, the equal houses of Jyotish are

> a tried and tested system, that work.

 

This might have been true a 100 years ago, when only eskimos lived there and

activities were very limited! But now there are big cities in the north, people

live like in London or New york. ..... The ascendant is often uncertain, but MC

is definite.

 

> Ayanamsha, but this just seems to mess everything else up. Lahiri may not be

> spot on, but it's not that far off either. The Mrtyu Bhaga's are of course

> an extremely interesting area for ayanamsha research.

 

I have not understood Mrtyu bhagas as yet. Perhaps you can explain clearly!

 

>

> Also, while largely based on standard Vimshottari dasha's, I also tend to

> find the Moon's position in Varga's to be more accurate. And the smaller

> Nakshatra dasha's, such as Yogini, or Tribhagi Vimshottari etc. all of which

> help add flavour, and strength to Vimshottari interpretation also seem to

> work better IMHO. Of course, one is regularly bound to get some charts which

> do not fit the parallax positions (e.g. Robert's :-), or those, such as

> mine, which don't fit geocentric. Having started with geocentric, and

> sensing something wrong right from the first glimpses into my own dasha's, I

> have to say that in general I feel parallax works better.

 

The use of other dasas is okay, but to jump from one to another to explain this

or that event is, for me, suspect! I can accept that one dasa system explains

health and death, another finances, yet another success in career, another

marital or other relationships etc. Or that there is a dasa system that applies

to all fields of life. But to has to search and find a different dasa to fit

each event in the past, it has no value for the future, for one cannot say which

will operate!

 

To get back to the parallaxed moon: can you give me a couple of concrete

examples in your life which fit the parallaxed Moon better? Please not with

involved logic which will be beyond my meagre knowledge! You are still very

young and live in England, not Yugoslavia or Central Africa, so that dire events

are unlikely! Also please give me your DOB again: I somehow have two dates: 23

July and 24 july 1982!

 

deep regards

Mani

[Guest guest]

Om Krishnaaya Namah

 

Dear Mani,

 

> The parallax differences would be approx.:

> Mercury and Mars: 15 seconds of arc

> Sun (away from horizon) : 9 secs

> Venus: 35 secs

> jupiter: 2secs

> saturn :1sec.

> Moon: max around 1 degree and 2 secs.

>

 

Thanks loads for this info!

 

> This might have been true a 100 years ago, when only eskimos lived there

and

> activities were very limited! But now there are big cities in the north,

people

> live like in London or New york. ..... The ascendant is often uncertain,

but MC

> is definite.

>

 

As far as far the MC's of people born in London, New York etc. are

concerned, thousands of astrologers will agree that being born in northern

latitudes has not affected the sensitivity of these points. The situation is

not affected in an extreme way until one actual goes way north, into the

Arctic Circle or whatever. I personally feel that even there, the angles

will be just as valid and sensitive as they are anywhere else.

Unfortunately, very little research on charts based on those areas has been

conducted to prove this.

 

> > Ayanamsha, but this just seems to mess everything else up. Lahiri may

not be

> > spot on, but it's not that far off either. The Mrtyu Bhaga's are of

course

> > an extremely interesting area for ayanamsha research.

>

> I have not understood Mrtyu bhagas as yet. Perhaps you can explain

clearly!

 

I'll have a go!

 

The words "mrtyu bhaga" translate to "death division". In each sign of the

zodiac, each planet (and the Lagna and the Upagraha Mandi) have one

particular spot as their Mrtyu Bhaga. So in Aries the Sun's MB is 20º. 20º

Aries doesn't act as MB for any planet other than the Sun. All this becomes

pretty clear if you see a table showing the MB's. As a rule of thumb (and

this is debatable), any planet within a degree of it's MB point on either

side, may be considered to be in Mrtyu Bhaga.

 

In it's most basic sense, MB may be thought of as an affliction. However, it

is quite a specific kind of affliction that appears to have a distinct

importance in Medical

Astrology, and longevity determination. This is where things start getting

quite hazy, as a lot of research does need to be done.

 

The Presence of the Lagna Lord, the Moon or the Atmakaraka in MB is

considered to be particularly detrimental to the natives health as these

planets are the personal planets of Jyotish. The Dasha of a planet in Mrtyu

Bhaga, particularly if it rules the Lagna or the sixth or eighth etc., may

cause accidents or health problems. If the planet in MB rules the house of

another relative, the dasha of that planet may adversely affect the health

of that relative. Needless to say, if these dashas occur simultaneously with

malefic transits to the MB planet it makes problems a lot more likely. But

you can experiment loads more!

 

> To get back to the parallaxed moon: can you give me a couple of concrete

> examples in your life which fit the parallaxed Moon better?

 

OK. I'll stick just to the antardashas (or bhukti's) as these are what

usually differ, and I'll stick just to the rasi. First my data:

 

24 July 1982

9:22 am BST

Coventry, England

 

Lagna = 19º30' Leo (Lahiri Ayanamsha)

 

1. Younger brother born on 22/03/1988.

 

No Parallax = Mercury Bhukti - I don't see a thing

 

With Parallax = Venus Bhukti - Venus is the third Lord, while associating

with Rahu who is an exalted chara bhratrikaraka.

 

2. Completed GCSE's in June 1998. Excellent results came back on 27/08/1998.

This officially ends compulsory British secondary education.

 

No Parallax = Moon Dasha Venus Bhukti - You tell me!

 

With Parallax = Mars Dasha Mars Bhukti - Mars is Yoga Karaka associated with

the natural benefic and Lord of the fifth Jupiter. Mars, of course also

rules the fourth house of secondary education.

 

A couple of days later I began further education, which is kind of a middle

stage between secondary and higher education. As Mars rules both houses of

education, it don't matter where you allocate this in-between education -

parallax still makes sense!

 

3. Had first car accident while learning (the other person's fault BTW!), on

31/05/2000 - No one hurt.

 

No Parallax = Rahu Bhukti - Rahu is a karaka for sudden accidents

 

Parallax = Jupiter Bhukti - Jupiter is the Lord of the eighth, associated

with Mars, karaka for accidents. These are aspected by Rahu with his fifth

aspect (if you accpet these). In this connection, I should mention that

before I began Mars Jupiter I already did expect some kind of accident

during this particular dasha, parallax worked in foresight as well.

 

4. Now I'm putting the following down as a whole, because particularly in

August, I really did feel like the last summer holiday was very much "my

time". Everything just went right!:-

 

Began first part-time Job on 19/06/2000

Received excellent A-Level results on 19/08/2000.

Passed Driving test on the 23/08/2000 (Janmashtami).

Began first year of University, on 25/09/2000.

 

In other words, I really did feel like Raja Yoga was happening, which

Jupiter does participate in. Of course Jupiter does rule higher education,

and associates with the Lord of the ninth, while this combination aspects

the ninth. Again I must mention that I did expect at the beginning of this

bhukti the last parts of it would be the ones to give me the results,

because it was in a dusthana-upachaya. While things seemed very normal

during most of it (mildly bad - dusthana), it was in the end (improvement -

Upachaya) that I expected Raja Yoga type results.

 

5. In early December 2000, I found out I have some type of dorment

Tuberculosis in me, and so began treatment.

 

Without parallax - Rahu Bhukti

With Parallax - Saturn Bhukti - Saturn Rules the sixth house of disease

occupying the maraka second.

 

I hope these explanation were simple enough. Of course one could expand on

each of those points, and could find support in transits, vargas, and other

dashas (I agree with your other point BTW). But I think even with simplicity

parallax works better in my case.

 

I'd love to hear your thoughts,

 

Pursottam

[Guest guest]

Dear Pursottam,

 

Thanks for elucidation. I agree that you parallaxed moon seems better.

 

But I am not sure that dasas and bukthis are applicable to the sort of events

you have listed, for in general these last for relatively long periods,

depending on which they are. I think the 3rd and 4th levels should be used to

decide. It is at these levels that the subjective feeling of the person is

strong and

 

Shall pick up this later on, after I have done some study of the events - also

other cases.

 

regards

Mani