Guest guest Posted May 10, 2001 Report Share Posted May 10, 2001 Hi I actually just now found a copy of a letter Wendy wrote about leaving the list and Jyotish, and about SJVC etc. I didn't see this until now. If you wonder why I didn't comment, I didn't know it happened. I've been trying to catch a clue here for a few days as to what's going on, but now I get at least this little part. The drama of our lives used to get me more upset than it does now, though I have considerable thoughts personally about the matters Wendy seems upset about. So I feel I can address these things calmly. As far as the part about SJVC and it's taking over GJLIST: I have considerable thoughts on the matter of how the West is assimilating the East, and I have been heavily involved in this process for years. I am very happy to be a part of this process, and happy to have started GJLIST, and happy to be a part of it's continuance. The essence or aim of the list should be to allow for exchange of knowledge in the areas related to Jyotish, which includes matters related to India's old knowledge base or secrets, part of which are family and sampradaya maintained or protected. The presence of Sanjay Rath in reality, especially India's reality, is very normal and in the flow of Indias ways and historical realities. Sage Jaimini, same thing. He's just a part of the Indian historical landscape, and as such, He is in our lives, and Sanjay Rath is in our lives, and we are in his life too. We're all in this together, and there's no alternative reality. So we have to work it out. Lately I am heavily processing my father, my family, my genetic and historical roots as a human body member of Earth's society today, and also processing as usual my position in relation to all other souls separate from our current bodies. So with an eye on the relative, and the absolute, I try to proceed. So my fathers life was pretty bad. It was a normal good life until that day known as the Bombing of Pearl Harbor by the Japanese at the start of the Pacific part of WWII. That day, that moment, ruined my fathers life permanently due to what inconceivable stress can do to a human psyche. He was a White man, an American White person, which means a descendent of agressive invaders of a settled and dignified land and peoples, now dealing with "East meets West" at Pearl Harbor that day. My dad never saw a Japanese person until that day what to speak of an East Indian. We never saw East Indians even as kids in California in the 60's and 70's. This East meets West is all new. The Gurus of India brought awareness of India and all these matters so very recently. We are in the first group of humans who are directly dealing on a personal day to day level across massive ocean barriers, dealing directly with the people's, the sciences, and the cultures, of other lands around the world, and this is so very new, that even many of us have FATHERS who fought WARS with people we now freely talk to no problem, through these magical wires known as the international phone and internet systems. This is GREAT. What an OPPORTUNITY. It's unaparalelled in WORLD HISTORY. Our ancestors so recently died to achieve peaceful dealings and understandings somehow or another between what are actually disparingly different cultures and paradigms. We are blessed to have what we have now. Let us not forget that at all. Not at all. At the same time, let us not forget that lieing just enderneath the surface of happy dealings and naive cordiality are the facts that there are very different paradigms of understanding life present in each of us, based on the "momentum of our genes and cultures" which are imprinted within us. One story worth mentioning comes to mind. My Guru, highly respected worldwide as a great Vaisnava Acarya, raised a boy from 10 to adulthood under his own wing directly and personally. This boy grew up in the room next to my Guru, at the temple/ashram I used to go in Navadwip West Bengal. This person had every chance to be a great Vaisnava leader himself, and everyone thought he was going to be. He grew to manhood, took Sannyas (the vow of lifelong celibacy accompanied with being a Hindu leader, kindof like taking a vow to be a priest lifelong in the Catholic Church- simmilar). So then he came to the West. He's my age, so that means he came in his mid thirties, all dressed up and ready to be resepected as the great leader we all thought he was. He followed that tact for awhile, and received accolades, respect, money, admiration, disciples, everything. Then however, something happened. Basically, lust got him. He began to take drugs with some disciples, at first in the mood of exploraton of the mind etc. Then it turned into dancing together to music, then more stoning at the beach while singing Bhajans, then eventually sex, then strange things began to unravel and unfold, and all hell broke loose basically. He ruined his life as we knew it, lost everything, really everything, and some people who were involved with him lost everything too. It was pretty serious. All along he was getting the respect given to persons in his shoes. We Westerners in other words can be easily duped by Indian Gurus because we have been trained somehow by our collective reaction to what they have Historically in their cultures and persons to give them TOTAL respect. There are thousands of Westerners following Amma around, Prabhupada around, Maharishi around, giving them the respect due the total representative of God on Earth, like a Pope, or as God directly, like an Avatar of the energy of God, or the Goddess energy etc. So I would summarize by saying that the first wave of Westerners are dealing with Indian Gurus pretty darn respectfully overall. Perhaps to a fault (my opinion is that it IS "to a fault" to a great degree). So there are at present many Westerners in the West, and on this list, who have TOTAL respect for a Guru figure, whether it's Sanjay, Amma, Maharishi, Prabhupada, or some other Indian born spiritual or Vedic leader. This can be annoying to us at times. It is not ever a part of Western culture to give this level of respect to anyone. It is considered addictive, strange, leading to perversions as absolute power can corrupt absolutely, and so on. I left this Western paradigm long ago, and gave over my self will, self direction, and so on, to Indian Gurus, and their best followers, and was 'a member' of one club of such persons. I have matured a bit. I no longer think that Indians, or my Gurus, are "all in all" in "all respects". I no longer stand there pinned to every word like I used to be, as so many were, and still are. I just went to a "festival" of Hare Krishna as Narayan Maharaj just stopped through Eugene for a few days. Hundreds of "devotees" were here and it was a big reminder for me of the "state of the union" of how the Hare Krishna experiment in the West is continuing to unfold, and how it's still the same in some ways, and so on. But I saw people literally pinned to EVERY WORD this Guru spoke. You know the scene, the "Guru" stands there, wherever, just walking around the grounds say, and all the ducklings, which include even doctors, lawyers, fathers, mothers, old people, young people, they follow him around like as if he is oxygen directly, the only source, and they literally lean over to hear every word, with these strange looks of awe and admiration on their faces, and the Guru is only say talking about what a nice day it is. They somehow find SPECIALITY in EVERY MOVEMENT of the Guru. I used to be on board with this, but now I'm fairly repulsed by this mood. So though it may surprise some, I do have to side with Wendy in saying that I do not find it altogether wonderful and healthy that Westerners give up thinking when they "get connected" to an Indian Guru of any type. Then also, in their devotion to their newfound teacher, they often fanatically contaminate wherever they traverse with this mood that all others are now somehow not as good, because they don't have this Guru as their own. The holier, saved, better than, mood is so easy to slip into. Myself, I have witnessed a few waves of trends or fashion sweep across the Jyotish world already, in just 8yearsof experience, but it's been enough to realize that I can't get caught up in each wave, or I won't have any life left for myself. You cannot devote to every thing that comes down the pike. So personally, I'm not going into Jaimini. I'm just not. I doubt I ever will. It doesn't attract me at the outset, like I'm not getting turned on by the Pada stuff and different aspects and all that, the new dashas, etc., that I wasn't already used to...so I'm just not going there personally. Personal choice. But see, I feel I can make that choice freely. I do not feel that Sanjay Rath has ANY KIND of ownership over anything. I see him as a person who by nature has chosen teaching as at least part of his life or offering to the world, and he's teaching what he knows to whomever approaches with interest and correctly according to his cultures and customs, and neither he nor any of his customers have ever really hurt my feelings by doing as they choose to do with their lives, so I have no problem with him or them, never have at all that I can remember. But I'm not one of their customers. I'm just a friendly guy on the sidelines of that whole thing. When I read GJLIST, I see lots of Sanjays influence these days, that's true, but it has never bothered me. When I read their thoughts on charts, with the padas etc., I just blow along, as I don't know what they're talking about and I'm not every going to know probably, and I don't care, I just see them talking, I wish them well, and I move along in my life. So now, why do Wendy and Robert then get so hot as to fight? That's another thing. That's not at all related to Jyotish, Sanjay, Me, You, or anything other than Robert and Wendy. They are each, or whoever fights when they fight, not to single them out, but when people fight, they are choosing to see something, be upset by it, respond to it, etc. They are creating that things reality. They see that threat, that another might not see. It's an illusion, because it's not a threat, it's just Roman Letters on a computer screen, but by seeing it as a threat, and responding to simply words as a threat, one gives them great substance in their own and others mental world, and thus a "focus" is created, and a "conversation" or "battle" begins, but only those who bother to see, to honor, to focus upon, that created illusory focus center, are engaged in that campaign of painful dealings, and no others. In fact, if you don't speak english, don't read it, don't realize what angry tones sound like, you might think two people fighting are actually having fun together, some sort of playful loud barking interaction. Perhaps it means they actually really love each other greatly. Personally, when I read Wendy, I see Robert, and vice versa, they write very similarly, very erudite, detailed, very passionate about their views, very defensive and ready and willing to defend in writing what was stated. Personally, I don't know what I wrote, can't remember, can't defend, usually see too many sides to pick just one, and so on. I'm too much of a space case to do that dance they do together in other words. So it's really birds of a feather flocking together. Those who wish to pose as "knowing astrology" very strongly, and who take themsevles very seriously in that veign, shall naturally be compelled to engage with each other in that way. Scholars fight with scholars. The lover in the street sees the girls, and the artist thinks of putting caps on his tubes of paint, while the policeman keeps a keen eye out... Those who wish to control, must engage the enemy, who also seeks such control. Personally, I used to think I knew something, whereas now I know for sure I don't. I just marvel more now. It's more interesting. I do want to share what I've touched and can share nicely, but I think I'm going to have a different face to the world about it from now on, like "Here's Jyotish, an Indian thing, delivered to you by a Patty, a proud one." I think I'll put a clover or a leprchon icon on the corner of everything I do, as if to say: "Hey, this is who I am. I'm not Indian, and I probably got it wrong. But they have this cool thing called Jyotish, and here, I've tried to package it for your perusal and understanding, but I'm just a Patty delivering something Indian to you.." It's a subtle difference, but a big one, from my past, where I rejected who I was, donned their clothese and thoughts, turned my back on my own heritage, and tried to be a Honky Hindu, and I took my views and words on those matters ever so seriously. But in so doing, I was engaged constantly in politics, battles, intrigues, judgement, cults, and so on. I got tired of that world. Now I'm out of it. I prefer where I am now. I see people as having some stuff for real, that they could be and share and live, and then they have some mental posessions that they think are "theirs" but are not really in fact theirs, like "Strict Hindu" was never really "mine" because I've always been freely sexual and a taker of intoxicants. See, there, I'm not a pure Hindu. Bingo. I've never meditated once. Can you believe that? Never done TM course A1 or whatever. I play really heavy rock guitar for fun and relaxation instead. I make David Gilmore sound like Van Clyburn. I'm overreacting to turning over my life, my mind, my power, my identity, to Indian Gurus and the most devoted of their followers. I gave that the last 21 years of my life, from 19 to 40. Enough. I now instead am a valid being as I am, and I will peruse their offerings of knowledge, culture, technology, ancient scriptures, etc., yes, definitely, wonderful, will listen to their yogis and teachers too, wonderful, but there's a difference now. I am not sitting there thinking I am nothing, my family is nothing, the great Guru is everything, and every word he says is some sort of revelation, and my family can go blow while I abandon them completely for my newfound all great Indian leader. I mention this so totally clearly because I want to now bring it to GJLIST. Sanjay Rath, and anyone else, in my mind, is equal to the youngest person on this list, and the oldest person on this list is equal to the youngest, in that we are all valid, all have pasts which are full of the struggle of our ancestors to get to this point, and we are all created by God, which means that our individual positions in our individual spiritual unfoldment as souls is created by the creator, and therefore in one sense must remain above judgement, above ridicule, or disdain, either inside ourselves for ourselves, or inside ourselves towards others. On the other hand, the older persons on this list are indeed more learned in many ways in life than the younger, and in many ways the Indians on this list are going to be way more learned in things that come from Sanskrit etc., than the Westerners in general are going to be. So in other words, respect means love yourself, but also others, and respect your own accumulation of knowledge to date, and give that to others, and in a mood of self respect, then mututal respect, share freely. If someone steps on you subtly, you must object. This is true. There is great need for self defense for their to be any health. I no longer allow anyone to subtly imply that I am dumb because I am not like them. Accepting such subtle put downs is the start of repressed anger, which leads to lots of problems and diseases. If you were travelling on the sea and came to old china, and you were from Europe, and you knew "Astrology", you may be very surprised to find they have survived without YOUR astrology for thousands of years, and they have their own, and it works, for them (and you surprisingly), and they're happy with it, and they're willing to share it with you, and hear about yours. Now at this moment, an interesting thing is placed before us, an interesting challenge. Normally we discriminate for ourselves, like in the store- I want this head of lettuce and not this one...I want this bad of apples because it looks better than the others... etc. But when it comes to sharing with HUMANS, some of the ways you think, feel, touch, speak and talk about things with them, and also HOW YOU THINK TOWARDS THEM while talking to them, all these things are felt by everyone always, subconsciously usually, and so the hatred is known, and is affecting things. You cannot hate someone and help them, or share with them. Hate must be removed before anything good can come between peoples. If hate remains, then surfacy cordiality is no cure. The bad will come. The war will come. If you hate the Chinese, you cannot understand them, nor help them with good things you can offer, nor receive anything properly from them really. The whole thing is spoiled by the selective nature of judgement, discrimination, etc. People are TRAPPED in their lives, appearing in them by karmic choice, not personal choice. There's a big difference. So when you hate someone, you are in essence blaming them for that which is not their fault. This injustice leads to hatred returned, and war eventually results. So now, to summarize, as I must go, I went into all this because: I would like it everyone would think deeply about the words "dispassionate sharing". Also, remember that we are dealing with many different cultures, races, languages, etc., here on this list. At all times, the humans are most important, not the knoledge or groups. Like the soul in each of us is more important. The mind and heart, to feel loved by the others here, it needs that. Give it that. Give Wendy the feeling of being loved separate from Jyotish. Give Robert the feeling of being loved separate from Jyotish. Visti is not his knowledge of Jyotish, he is Visti, a man trying to live life in some Northern European country. What he is, how he has grown and lived, what he has known to be true, is so not the same as me. Having a Swiss Girlfriend for years taught me something important, often missed, but profound: Though we may look the same in so many ways, just being from different countries is a massive difference, as we literally think completely from the core of our memories. I did not grow up thinking at all about independence within Europe, or the words "Confederation Helvetica", nor anything about living near Germany, etc., etc. And she never was taught about George Washington, and she doesn't just know the words "Schnell" and "Shwine", which is all we were taught by Hollywood that Germans ever say... in fact she speaks German. We joke about Hitler and Nazis. They NEVER GO THERE at all at any time. NEVER. The imprint in their social consciousness is totally different when you mention the word Nazi. For us, it's in a movie, for them, it's something WAY DIFFERENT. This is just one example. It was with a sense of "educated righteousness" that Christianity and Islam spread themselves out agressively in past ages, attempting to override, destroy and remove from histories face the cultures indigenous to much of the world. Now Hinduism is having it's chance. Some whites are willing to help with this. I was one of them, but I'm not any more. I am Hindu, yes, in many ways, that is what I am. But I am not Indian. And I do not hate my own past, my people, my culture, nor any other. I do not want to change the way I dress to Indian any more. I see us all as a collective, collectively processing many different unique things, but collectively, we are moving through time on Earth learning and growing together. I do feel that one day our batch of souls will arrive at very great levels of perfection. I think we are learning. I think the distant future will be great, and based on all the past. My father gave his life for peace between east and west. I continue in that. I am proud of him, and my ancestors. I wish to listen to the East, very much so, as I already have. But nobody is better than anybody else, any more. There is no more conquest. This list is not a place for waging any battles. I firstly bow to you all simply as souls, and welcome you to discuss freely. Know that amongst us are many past enemies by race, religion, creed, etc. But that is all no more. No more do we kill each other, rape each others countries, etc. No. Now we share knowledge, for a better tommorrow. We just have to always remember that our aim is the souls in each of us. We are the essence of why we are here. If we offend "we", then we offend "me", and if I hurt you, then I too am hurt automatically. Only the highly thoughtful can dance above pain and manage insult and injury. They use a trick they've realized- that all sentient beings respond positively to love, and they do know how to feel love, acceptance, and friendship, even when no words are exchanged, for confirmation of this, just get to know any dog- the most obvious non-hiders of emotions found on earth. So people know. They do. Rid ourselves of hate. We will then feel automatically how good we have become to ourselves, to each other, which is ourselves. Then sharing is nice. Here are some Samosas if anyone is interested, I learned this recipe from Indian sisters. These are apple Samosas. See here, we've combined a fruit from our land, with a recipe from their land, for something I think Caegan and Pradeep would have liked to taste together. We have nice apples. They invented Samosas. We shared, so now we enjoy eating together, whereas we used to eat apples, and they used to eat Samosas, alone both. Better together. Now I have more interesting foods, and strange looking brown friends, and we're sharing our madness with each other. Tasty. We used to draw strange diagrams called Celtic Knots, and they drew similar things on temple floors and walls. Amazing how similare we are though so far apart. Even many of our words are related to their language. And if you think we have nothing to tell Indians, think again. Chakrapain Ullall told me once personally "Indians bring all the bad from India to the West and spread it around, but learn nothing of the good the Westerners could offer into their own lives". Of course, generalizations always fail, but lets give it some validity, and I would like to further add: If you put India, Indians, etc., on a pedestal, as we are doing and have done, they will go ahead and agree with you, and you will be their worst enemy with this false love. They have as much to learn as us, and they have alot to learn from us, and we from them. I was good before I met the Hare Krishna devotees. The British were'nt all bad before meeting India, and the Indians have learned something from the British. So with self love and love for each other, we should share. This list is not the property of SJVC, though it's as much theirs as it is mine to be honest really, and this list is not a "Yes Man" to everything Indian, or Indians in general. This list is a forum for exhange on some very interesting material. This list is best helped if all members spend some time thinking about the world, world history, how we are all products of our cultures, parents, pasts, etc., and how we used to fight, but now we don't as much, and how that could be messed up on Micro and Macro levels very easily, and how we can each play a part in the positive cycle of peace feedback, rather than participating in all the sutle systems that feed the negative feedback loop. So in that mood, I would like say: Friends, Top of the Morning To Ya, I love yee, and I am happy to be alive right now. It's a very sunny day here in Eugene. I'm getting my act back together after the move. Everyone has been exceedingly nice to me in my problems and wished me well. I feel very loved and surrounded by friends. My children also thank you, as I go, so they go. peace out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2001 Report Share Posted May 10, 2001 Namaste dear Das, Well, well, well, here I am enjoying my (well-needed) hiatus from the list, and you've managed to draw me out with your luminous letter. Do I have to do this all over again, now that Mars is about to station retrograde, and go back into the Gandanta in early Sagittarius and late Scorpio? Wearily, I just want to make a few concluding comments, before I go and dry out somewhere: Why, tell me why, do you and some persons on this list, have such a disdain for some purebred Parasari directives such as varga charts, Rasi dasas, Argalas, Arudhas, specially lagnas, and the like? Why also single out Jaimini? He did not create anything new, that was not first taught in BPHS - he evidently was a disciple of Veda Vyasa, who was the son of Parasara. He only wanted to give delineations and further studies into those areas of Parasari astrology which needed them. So what is the fear and paranoia all about, regarding those who wish to follow those investigations, and seek to venture more into the finer aspects of Jyotish? I have no qualms with somebody who wishes to use only the rasi chart and Vimsottari dasa, if fine-tuning those fundamental methodologies is what they need to understand and practice Jyotish. But why diminish the work of Sanjay Rath, who has demonstrated and researched many less known methodologies, and who thus wishes to honor the tradition of Vedic Astrology? If someone of obvious qualifications, wants to increase our knowledge, show a little respect, for God's sake! If you do not care for his teachings, fine. But show him due respect, that's all I'm asking for. Answer me this: Why did Parasara give elaborate calculations of varga charts, if he thought nobody really could, or should use them? Was he some kind of buffoon who taught one thing, yet thought that what he taught was useless? Obviously not. And if somebody like Sanjay Rath has the erudition, and guru lineage behind him, to give straight and comprehensible uses of such areas of Parasari astrology, do we just discount him as "another Indian coming to spread some dogma around in America"? Answer this too: Should we as astrologers languish into the malaise of non-proactive practice of this science, and just ignore major portions of the great treatise that we know of as Brihat Parasara Hora Shastra? If Rasi and Vimsottari is all you need, that is well and good. I encourage you to refine and perfect those methods to the best of your ability. But what if Sanjay Rath, SJVC, myself, and others of his way of thought wishes to go deeper, to try to investigate the real meanings and practice of varga charts, rasi dasas, etc.? Is that bold research into broadening perspectives in Jyotish something to denounce or dismiss, or should such attempts be allowed at least a little acknowledgement? Finally: NO ASTROLOGER, that I have respect for anyway, accepts what his guru or teachers say blindly. If a principle is taught, or suggested, it should be demonstrated. If after researching and honestly attempting to find the efficacy of some system, it is found to be inaccurate most of the time, THEN WE THROUGH IT OUT! If, however, something that we research works consistently enough, then hey, we've found gold. But I don't think it is good logic, or good teaching of Jyotish, to just dismiss attempts to understand the real applications of the finer levels of this art without taking the time, and making the effort, to do the research yourself. If so, we just become fat and intellectually lazy. Well, maybe there are just birds of different feathers, and I just don't belong here. Be that as it may, please excuse my forceful tone, after all I can blame it on stationary Mars today, can't I? Again, I am getting weary with all of this, but still hang on around here, due to the affectionate, considerate, and very loving emails that I get from so many people on this list regarding my efforts here. I'm running out of strength, however. How long can you put your heart out somewhere, to have it sliced and butchered on practically a daily basis? God bless you all - With love and respect, Robert PS Carol, that was a lovely tea party that you hosted yesterday - I was there. ===================================== Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer 760 NW Broken Arrow Rd. Bend, OR. 97701-9037 Phone: 541-318-0248 visit <http://www.robertkoch.com> or e-mail rk. rk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2001 Report Share Posted May 10, 2001 Das, An inspiring sharing ,perhaps the fruit of a mars close to station for an aries lagna?Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2001 Report Share Posted May 10, 2001 OM GAM! Dear Dasbabu, You lost me after the first few paras! Could you please repeat that please. Regards, Gautam sarkar --- goravani wrote: > > > > Hi > > I actually just now found a copy of a letter Wendy > wrote about leaving the > list and Jyotish, and about SJVC etc. > > I didn't see this until now. If you wonder why I > didn't comment, I didn't > know it happened. I've been trying to catch a clue > here for a few days as to > what's going on, but now I get at least this little > part. > > The drama of our lives used to get me more upset > than it does now, though I > have considerable thoughts personally about the > matters Wendy seems upset > about. So I feel I can address these things calmly. > > As far as the part about SJVC and it's taking over > GJLIST: > > I have considerable thoughts on the matter of how > the West is assimilating > the East, and I have been heavily involved in this > process for years. I am > very happy to be a part of this process, and happy > to have started GJLIST, > and happy to be a part of it's continuance. > > The essence or aim of the list should be to allow > for exchange of knowledge > in the areas related to Jyotish, which includes > matters related to India's > old knowledge base or secrets, part of which are > family and sampradaya > maintained or protected. The presence of Sanjay Rath > in reality, especially > India's reality, is very normal and in the flow of > Indias ways and historical > realities. Sage Jaimini, same thing. He's just a > part of the Indian > historical landscape, and as such, He is in our > lives, and Sanjay Rath is in > our lives, and we are in his life too. We're all in > this together, and > there's no alternative reality. So we have to work > it out. > > Lately I am heavily processing my father, my family, > my genetic and > historical roots as a human body member of Earth's > society today, and also > processing as usual my position in relation to all > other souls separate from > our current bodies. So with an eye on the relative, > and the absolute, I try > to proceed. > > So my fathers life was pretty bad. It was a normal > good life until that day > known as the Bombing of Pearl Harbor by the Japanese > at the start of the > Pacific part of WWII. That day, that moment, ruined > my fathers life > permanently due to what inconceivable stress can do > to a human psyche. He was > a White man, an American White person, which means a > descendent of agressive > invaders of a settled and dignified land and > peoples, now dealing with "East > meets West" at Pearl Harbor that day. > > My dad never saw a Japanese person until that day > what to speak of an East > Indian. We never saw East Indians even as kids in > California in the 60's and > 70's. This East meets West is all new. The Gurus of > India brought awareness > of India and all these matters so very recently. We > are in the first group of > humans who are directly dealing on a personal day to > day level across massive > ocean barriers, dealing directly with the people's, > the sciences, and the > cultures, of other lands around the world, and this > is so very new, that even > many of us have FATHERS who fought WARS with people > we now freely talk to no > problem, through these magical wires known as the > international phone and > internet systems. > > This is GREAT. What an OPPORTUNITY. It's > unaparalelled in WORLD HISTORY. Our > ancestors so recently died to achieve peaceful > dealings and understandings > somehow or another between what are actually > disparingly different cultures > and paradigms. We are blessed to have what we have > now. Let us not forget > that at all. Not at all. > > At the same time, let us not forget that lieing just > enderneath the surface > of happy dealings and naive cordiality are the facts > that there are very > different paradigms of understanding life present in > each of us, based on the > "momentum of our genes and cultures" which are > imprinted within us. > > One story worth mentioning comes to mind. My Guru, > highly respected worldwide > as a great Vaisnava Acarya, raised a boy from 10 to > adulthood under his own > wing directly and personally. This boy grew up in > the room next to my Guru, > at the temple/ashram I used to go in Navadwip West > Bengal. This person had > every chance to be a great Vaisnava leader himself, > and everyone thought he > was going to be. He grew to manhood, took Sannyas > (the vow of lifelong > celibacy accompanied with being a Hindu leader, > kindof like taking a vow to > be a priest lifelong in the Catholic Church- > simmilar). So then he came to > the West. He's my age, so that means he came in his > mid thirties, all dressed > up and ready to be resepected as the great leader we > all thought he was. He > followed that tact for awhile, and received > accolades, respect, money, > admiration, disciples, everything. > > Then however, something happened. Basically, lust > got him. He began to take > drugs with some disciples, at first in the mood of > exploraton of the mind > etc. Then it turned into dancing together to music, > then more stoning at the > beach while singing Bhajans, then eventually sex, > then strange things began > to unravel and unfold, and all hell broke loose > basically. He ruined his life > as we knew it, lost everything, really everything, > and some people who were > involved with him lost everything too. It was pretty > serious. All along he > was getting the respect given to persons in his > shoes. > > We Westerners in other words can be easily duped by > Indian Gurus because we > have been trained somehow by our collective reaction > to what they have > Historically in their cultures and persons to give > them TOTAL respect. There > are thousands of Westerners following Amma around, > Prabhupada around, > Maharishi around, giving them the respect due the > total representative of God > on Earth, like a Pope, or as God directly, like an > Avatar of the energy of > God, or the Goddess energy etc. > > So I would summarize by saying that the first wave > of Westerners are dealing > with Indian Gurus pretty darn respectfully overall. > Perhaps to a fault (my > opinion is that it IS "to a fault" to a great > degree). > > So there are at present many Westerners in the West, > and on this list, who > have TOTAL respect for a Guru figure, whether it's > Sanjay, Amma, Maharishi, > Prabhupada, or some other Indian born spiritual or > Vedic leader. This can be > annoying to us at times. It is not ever a part of > Western culture to give > this level of respect to anyone. It is considered > addictive, strange, leading > to perversions as absolute power can corrupt > absolutely, and so on. I left > this Western paradigm long ago, and gave over my > self will, self direction, > and so on, to Indian Gurus, and their best > followers, and was 'a member' of > one club of such persons. > > I have matured a bit. I no longer think that > Indians, or my Gurus, are "all > in all" in "all respects". I no longer stand there > pinned to every word like > I used to be, as so many were, and still are. I just > went to a "festival" of > === message truncated === Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions./ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2001 Report Share Posted May 10, 2001 Speaking of Love, etc...... Jupiter is also opposite Pluto nowadays, raising the stakes quite a bit. Both Mars and Neptune make stations right now. I know that is not very Jyotish; 21st Century-ites, however, can't ignore them (the Outers). We've also had some re-flare-ups in solar activity in the past few days. Good link: http://www.spaceweather.com/index.html Some day I am going to moderate a list. I know that I will have to exercise very strict guidelines, and that I will have to be "ruthless" at times--my Scorpio rising will do the trick. I was married a few years ago. The marriage ended abruptly and rather incompletely. Recently I had to go back and initiate the righting of the scales. My fear fed my "enemy". It was and is very sticky. My adhering to my greater principles with warrior-like perseverance continues to direct and guide me. "It" will go down--"she" will be successfully rebuked--if and only if I assert myself and my rights with the highest possible Christly aplomb. I saw a shade of it going on GJLIST. Fear not all, Krishna will come and put everything right. Curtis B Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2001 Report Share Posted May 11, 2001 Namaste and Saludos I enjoy your somosas, your are getting really wise !. All my love Hare Ram chaitanya ........... das gjlist, goravani@a... wrote: > > > > Hi > > I actually just now found a copy of a letter Wendy wrote about leaving the > list and Jyotish, and about SJVC etc. > > I didn't see this until now. If you wonder why I didn't comment, I didn't > know it happened. I've been trying to catch a clue here for a few days as to > what's going on, but now I get at least this little part. > > The drama of our lives used to get me more upset than it does now, though I > have considerable thoughts personally about the matters Wendy seems upset > about. So I feel I can address these things calmly. > > As far as the part about SJVC and it's taking over GJLIST: > > I have considerable thoughts on the matter of how the West is assimilating > the East, and I have been heavily involved in this process for years. I am > very happy to be a part of this process, and happy to have started GJLIST, > and happy to be a part of it's continuance. > > The essence or aim of the list should be to allow for exchange of knowledge > in the areas related to Jyotish, which includes matters related to India's > old knowledge base or secrets, part of which are family and sampradaya > maintained or protected. The presence of Sanjay Rath in reality, especially > India's reality, is very normal and in the flow of Indias ways and historical > realities. Sage Jaimini, same thing. He's just a part of the Indian > historical landscape, and as such, He is in our lives, and Sanjay Rath is in > our lives, and we are in his life too. We're all in this together, and > there's no alternative reality. So we have to work it out. > > Lately I am heavily processing my father, my family, my genetic and > historical roots as a human body member of Earth's society today, and also > processing as usual my position in relation to all other souls separate from > our current bodies. So with an eye on the relative, and the absolute, I try > to proceed. > > So my fathers life was pretty bad. It was a normal good life until that day > known as the Bombing of Pearl Harbor by the Japanese at the start of the > Pacific part of WWII. That day, that moment, ruined my fathers life > permanently due to what inconceivable stress can do to a human psyche. He was > a White man, an American White person, which means a descendent of agressive > invaders of a settled and dignified land and peoples, now dealing with "East > meets West" at Pearl Harbor that day. > > My dad never saw a Japanese person until that day what to speak of an East > Indian. We never saw East Indians even as kids in California in the 60's and > 70's. This East meets West is all new. The Gurus of India brought awareness > of India and all these matters so very recently. We are in the first group of > humans who are directly dealing on a personal day to day level across massive > ocean barriers, dealing directly with the people's, the sciences, and the > cultures, of other lands around the world, and this is so very new, that even > many of us have FATHERS who fought WARS with people we now freely talk to no > problem, through these magical wires known as the international phone and > internet systems. > > This is GREAT. What an OPPORTUNITY. It's unaparalelled in WORLD HISTORY. Our > ancestors so recently died to achieve peaceful dealings and understandings > somehow or another between what are actually disparingly different cultures > and paradigms. We are blessed to have what we have now. Let us not forget > that at all. Not at all. > > At the same time, let us not forget that lieing just enderneath the surface > of happy dealings and naive cordiality are the facts that there are very > different paradigms of understanding life present in each of us, based on the > "momentum of our genes and cultures" which are imprinted within us. > > One story worth mentioning comes to mind. My Guru, highly respected worldwide > as a great Vaisnava Acarya, raised a boy from 10 to adulthood under his own > wing directly and personally. This boy grew up in the room next to my Guru, > at the temple/ashram I used to go in Navadwip West Bengal. This person had > every chance to be a great Vaisnava leader himself, and everyone thought he > was going to be. He grew to manhood, took Sannyas (the vow of lifelong > celibacy accompanied with being a Hindu leader, kindof like taking a vow to > be a priest lifelong in the Catholic Church- simmilar). So then he came to > the West. He's my age, so that means he came in his mid thirties, all dressed > up and ready to be resepected as the great leader we all thought he was. He > followed that tact for awhile, and received accolades, respect, money, > admiration, disciples, everything. > > Then however, something happened. Basically, lust got him. He began to take > drugs with some disciples, at first in the mood of exploraton of the mind > etc. Then it turned into dancing together to music, then more stoning at the > beach while singing Bhajans, then eventually sex, then strange things began > to unravel and unfold, and all hell broke loose basically. He ruined his life > as we knew it, lost everything, really everything, and some people who were > involved with him lost everything too. It was pretty serious. All along he > was getting the respect given to persons in his shoes. > > We Westerners in other words can be easily duped by Indian Gurus because we > have been trained somehow by our collective reaction to what they have > Historically in their cultures and persons to give them TOTAL respect. There > are thousands of Westerners following Amma around, Prabhupada around, > Maharishi around, giving them the respect due the total representative of God > on Earth, like a Pope, or as God directly, like an Avatar of the energy of > God, or the Goddess energy etc. > > So I would summarize by saying that the first wave of Westerners are dealing > with Indian Gurus pretty darn respectfully overall. Perhaps to a fault (my > opinion is that it IS "to a fault" to a great degree). > > So there are at present many Westerners in the West, and on this list, who > have TOTAL respect for a Guru figure, whether it's Sanjay, Amma, Maharishi, > Prabhupada, or some other Indian born spiritual or Vedic leader. This can be > annoying to us at times. It is not ever a part of Western culture to give > this level of respect to anyone. It is considered addictive, strange, leading > to perversions as absolute power can corrupt absolutely, and so on. I left > this Western paradigm long ago, and gave over my self will, self direction, > and so on, to Indian Gurus, and their best followers, and was 'a member' of > one club of such persons. > > I have matured a bit. I no longer think that Indians, or my Gurus, are "all > in all" in "all respects". I no longer stand there pinned to every word like > I used to be, as so many were, and still are. I just went to a "festival" of > Hare Krishna as Narayan Maharaj just stopped through Eugene for a few days. > Hundreds of "devotees" were here and it was a big reminder for me of the > "state of the union" of how the Hare Krishna experiment in the West is > continuing to unfold, and how it's still the same in some ways, and so on. > But I saw people literally pinned to EVERY WORD this Guru spoke. You know the > scene, the "Guru" stands there, wherever, just walking around the grounds > say, and all the ducklings, which include even doctors, lawyers, fathers, > mothers, old people, young people, they follow him around like as if he is > oxygen directly, the only source, and they literally lean over to hear every > word, with these strange looks of awe and admiration on their faces, and the > Guru is only say talking about what a nice day it is. They somehow find > SPECIALITY in EVERY MOVEMENT of the Guru. I used to be on board with this, > but now I'm fairly repulsed by this mood. > > So though it may surprise some, I do have to side with Wendy in saying that I > do not find it altogether wonderful and healthy that Westerners give up > thinking when they "get connected" to an Indian Guru of any type. Then also, > in their devotion to their newfound teacher, they often fanatically > contaminate wherever they traverse with this mood that all others are now > somehow not as good, because they don't have this Guru as their own. The > holier, saved, better than, mood is so easy to slip into. > > Myself, I have witnessed a few waves of trends or fashion sweep across the > Jyotish world already, in just 8yearsof experience, but it's been enough to > realize that I can't get caught up in each wave, or I won't have any life > left for myself. You cannot devote to every thing that comes down the pike. > So personally, I'm not going into Jaimini. I'm just not. I doubt I ever will. > It doesn't attract me at the outset, like I'm not getting turned on by the > Pada stuff and different aspects and all that, the new dashas, etc., that I > wasn't already used to...so I'm just not going there personally. Personal > choice. But see, I feel I can make that choice freely. I do not feel that > Sanjay Rath has ANY KIND of ownership over anything. I see him as a person > who by nature has chosen teaching as at least part of his life or offering to > the world, and he's teaching what he knows to whomever approaches with > interest and correctly according to his cultures and customs, and neither he > nor any of his customers have ever really hurt my feelings by doing as they > choose to do with their lives, so I have no problem with him or them, never > have at all that I can remember. But I'm not one of their customers. I'm just > a friendly guy on the sidelines of that whole thing. > > When I read GJLIST, I see lots of Sanjays influence these days, that's true, > but it has never bothered me. When I read their thoughts on charts, with the > padas etc., I just blow along, as I don't know what they're talking about and > I'm not every going to know probably, and I don't care, I just see them > talking, I wish them well, and I move along in my life. > > So now, why do Wendy and Robert then get so hot as to fight? That's another > thing. That's not at all related to Jyotish, Sanjay, Me, You, or anything > other than Robert and Wendy. They are each, or whoever fights when they > fight, not to single them out, but when people fight, they are choosing to > see something, be upset by it, respond to it, etc. They are creating that > things reality. They see that threat, that another might not see. It's an > illusion, because it's not a threat, it's just Roman Letters on a computer > screen, but by seeing it as a threat, and responding to simply words as a > threat, one gives them great substance in their own and others mental world, > and thus a "focus" is created, and a "conversation" or "battle" begins, but > only those who bother to see, to honor, to focus upon, that created illusory > focus center, are engaged in that campaign of painful dealings, and no > others. In fact, if you don't speak english, don't read it, don't realize > what angry tones sound like, you might think two people fighting are actually > having fun together, some sort of playful loud barking interaction. Perhaps > it means they actually really love each other greatly. > > Personally, when I read Wendy, I see Robert, and vice versa, they write very > similarly, very erudite, detailed, very passionate about their views, very > defensive and ready and willing to defend in writing what was stated. > > Personally, I don't know what I wrote, can't remember, can't defend, usually > see too many sides to pick just one, and so on. I'm too much of a space case > to do that dance they do together in other words. So it's really birds of a > feather flocking together. Those who wish to pose as "knowing astrology" very > strongly, and who take themsevles very seriously in that veign, shall > naturally be compelled to engage with each other in that way. Scholars fight > with scholars. The lover in the street sees the girls, and the artist thinks > of putting caps on his tubes of paint, while the policeman keeps a keen eye > out... Those who wish to control, must engage the enemy, who also seeks such > control. > > Personally, I used to think I knew something, whereas now I know for sure I > don't. I just marvel more now. It's more interesting. I do want to share what > I've touched and can share nicely, but I think I'm going to have a different > face to the world about it from now on, like > > "Here's Jyotish, an Indian thing, delivered to you by a Patty, a proud one." > > I think I'll put a clover or a leprchon icon on the corner of everything I > do, as if to say: > > "Hey, this is who I am. I'm not Indian, and I probably got it wrong. But they > have this cool thing called Jyotish, and here, I've tried to package it for > your perusal and understanding, but I'm just a Patty delivering something > Indian to you.." > > It's a subtle difference, but a big one, from my past, where I rejected who I > was, donned their clothese and thoughts, turned my back on my own heritage, > and tried to be a Honky Hindu, and I took my views and words on those matters > ever so seriously. But in so doing, I was engaged constantly in politics, > battles, intrigues, judgement, cults, and so on. I got tired of that world. > Now I'm out of it. I prefer where I am now. > > I see people as having some stuff for real, that they could be and share and > live, and then they have some mental posessions that they think are "theirs" > but are not really in fact theirs, like "Strict Hindu" was never really > "mine" because I've always been freely sexual and a taker of intoxicants. > See, there, I'm not a pure Hindu. Bingo. I've never meditated once. Can you > believe that? Never done TM course A1 or whatever. I play really heavy rock > guitar for fun and relaxation instead. I make David Gilmore sound like Van > Clyburn. > > I'm overreacting to turning over my life, my mind, my power, my identity, to > Indian Gurus and the most devoted of their followers. I gave that the last 21 > years of my life, from 19 to 40. Enough. I now instead am a valid being as I > am, and I will peruse their offerings of knowledge, culture, technology, > ancient scriptures, etc., yes, definitely, wonderful, will listen to their > yogis and teachers too, wonderful, but there's a difference now. > > I am not sitting there thinking I am nothing, my family is nothing, the great > Guru is everything, and every word he says is some sort of revelation, and my > family can go blow while I abandon them completely for my newfound all great > Indian leader. > > I mention this so totally clearly because I want to now bring it to GJLIST. > > Sanjay Rath, and anyone else, in my mind, is equal to the youngest person on > this list, and the oldest person on this list is equal to the youngest, in > that we are all valid, all have pasts which are full of the struggle of our > ancestors to get to this point, and we are all created by God, which means > that our individual positions in our individual spiritual unfoldment as souls > is created by the creator, and therefore in one sense must remain above > judgement, above ridicule, or disdain, either inside ourselves for ourselves, > or inside ourselves towards others. > > On the other hand, the older persons on this list are indeed more learned in > many ways in life than the younger, and in many ways the Indians on this list > are going to be way more learned in things that come from Sanskrit etc., than > the Westerners in general are going to be. > > So in other words, respect means love yourself, but also others, and respect > your own accumulation of knowledge to date, and give that to others, and in a > mood of self respect, then mututal respect, share freely. If someone steps on > you subtly, you must object. This is true. There is great need for self > defense for their to be any health. I no longer allow anyone to subtly imply > that I am dumb because I am not like them. Accepting such subtle put downs is > the start of repressed anger, which leads to lots of problems and diseases. > > If you were travelling on the sea and came to old china, and you were from > Europe, and you knew "Astrology", you may be very surprised to find they have > survived without YOUR astrology for thousands of years, and they have their > own, and it works, for them (and you surprisingly), and they're happy with > it, and they're willing to share it with you, and hear about yours. > > Now at this moment, an interesting thing is placed before us, an interesting > challenge. > > Normally we discriminate for ourselves, like in the store- I want this head > of lettuce and not this one...I want this bad of apples because it looks > better than the others... etc. > > But when it comes to sharing with HUMANS, some of the ways you think, feel, > touch, speak and talk about things with them, and also HOW YOU THINK TOWARDS > THEM while talking to them, all these things are felt by everyone always, > subconsciously usually, and so the hatred is known, and is affecting things. > > You cannot hate someone and help them, or share with them. Hate must be > removed before anything good can come between peoples. If hate remains, then > surfacy cordiality is no cure. The bad will come. The war will come. If you > hate the Chinese, you cannot understand them, nor help them with good things > you can offer, nor receive anything properly from them really. The whole > thing is spoiled by the selective nature of judgement, discrimination, etc. > > People are TRAPPED in their lives, appearing in them by karmic choice, not > personal choice. There's a big difference. So when you hate someone, you are > in essence blaming them for that which is not their fault. This injustice > leads to hatred returned, and war eventually results. > > So now, to summarize, as I must go, I went into all this because: > > I would like it everyone would think deeply about the words "dispassionate > sharing". Also, remember that we are dealing with many different cultures, > races, languages, etc., here on this list. At all times, the humans are most > important, not the knoledge or groups. Like the soul in each of us is more > important. The mind and heart, to feel loved by the others here, it needs > that. Give it that. Give Wendy the feeling of being loved separate from > Jyotish. Give Robert the feeling of being loved separate from Jyotish. Visti > is not his knowledge of Jyotish, he is Visti, a man trying to live life in > some Northern European country. What he is, how he has grown and lived, what > he has known to be true, is so not the same as me. > > Having a Swiss Girlfriend for years taught me something important, often > missed, but profound: > > Though we may look the same in so many ways, just being from different > countries is a massive difference, as we literally think completely from the > core of our memories. I did not grow up thinking at all about independence > within Europe, or the words "Confederation Helvetica", nor anything about > living near Germany, etc., etc. > > And she never was taught about George Washington, and she doesn't just know > the words "Schnell" and "Shwine", which is all we were taught by Hollywood > that Germans ever say... in fact she speaks German. We joke about Hitler and > Nazis. They NEVER GO THERE at all at any time. NEVER. The imprint in their > social consciousness is totally different when you mention the word Nazi. For > us, it's in a movie, for them, it's something WAY DIFFERENT. > > This is just one example. > > It was with a sense of "educated righteousness" that Christianity and Islam > spread themselves out agressively in past ages, attempting to override, > destroy and remove from histories face the cultures indigenous to much of the > world. > > Now Hinduism is having it's chance. Some whites are willing to help with > this. I was one of them, but I'm not any more. I am Hindu, yes, in many ways, > that is what I am. But I am not Indian. And I do not hate my own past, my > people, my culture, nor any other. I do not want to change the way I dress to > Indian any more. > > I see us all as a collective, collectively processing many different unique > things, but collectively, we are moving through time on Earth learning and > growing together. I do feel that one day our batch of souls will arrive at > very great levels of perfection. I think we are learning. I think the distant > future will be great, and based on all the past. My father gave his life for > peace between east and west. I continue in that. I am proud of him, and my > ancestors. I wish to listen to the East, very much so, as I already have. > > But nobody is better than anybody else, any more. There is no more conquest. > This list is not a place for waging any battles. > > I firstly bow to you all simply as souls, and welcome you to discuss freely. > Know that amongst us are many past enemies by race, religion, creed, etc. But > that is all no more. No more do we kill each other, rape each others > countries, etc. No. Now we share knowledge, for a better tommorrow. > > We just have to always remember that our aim is the souls in each of us. We > are the essence of why we are here. If we offend "we", then we offend "me", > and if I hurt you, then I too am hurt automatically. > > Only the highly thoughtful can dance above pain and manage insult and injury. > They use a trick they've realized- that all sentient beings respond > positively to love, and they do know how to feel love, acceptance, and > friendship, even when no words are exchanged, for confirmation of this, just > get to know any dog- the most obvious non-hiders of emotions found on earth. > > So people know. They do. Rid ourselves of hate. We will then feel > automatically how good we have become to ourselves, to each other, which is > ourselves. Then sharing is nice. > > Here are some Samosas if anyone is interested, I learned this recipe from > Indian sisters. These are apple Samosas. See here, we've combined a fruit > from our land, with a recipe from their land, for something I think Caegan > and Pradeep would have liked to taste together. We have nice apples. They > invented Samosas. We shared, so now we enjoy eating together, whereas we used > to eat apples, and they used to eat Samosas, alone both. Better together. Now > I have more interesting foods, and strange looking brown friends, and we're > sharing our madness with each other. Tasty. We used to draw strange diagrams > called Celtic Knots, and they drew similar things on temple floors and walls. > Amazing how similare we are though so far apart. Even many of our words are > related to their language. > > And if you think we have nothing to tell Indians, think again. > > Chakrapain Ullall told me once personally > > "Indians bring all the bad from India to the West and spread it around, but > learn nothing of the good the Westerners could offer into their own lives". > > Of course, generalizations always fail, but lets give it some validity, and I > would like to further add: > > If you put India, Indians, etc., on a pedestal, as we are doing and have > done, they will go ahead and agree with you, and you will be their worst > enemy with this false love. They have as much to learn as us, and they have > alot to learn from us, and we from them. > > I was good before I met the Hare Krishna devotees. The British were'nt all > bad before meeting India, and the Indians have learned something from the > British. > > So with self love and love for each other, we should share. > > This list is not the property of SJVC, though it's as much theirs as it is > mine to be honest really, and this list is not a "Yes Man" to everything > Indian, or Indians in general. This list is a forum for exhange on some very > interesting material. This list is best helped if all members spend some time > thinking about the world, world history, how we are all products of our > cultures, parents, pasts, etc., and how we used to fight, but now we don't as > much, and how that could be messed up on Micro and Macro levels very easily, > and how we can each play a part in the positive cycle of peace feedback, > rather than participating in all the sutle systems that feed the negative > feedback loop. > > So in that mood, I would like say: > > > Friends, Top of the Morning To Ya, I love yee, and I am happy to be alive > right now. > > It's a very sunny day here in Eugene. I'm getting my act back together after > the move. Everyone has been exceedingly nice to me in my problems and wished > me well. I feel very loved and surrounded by friends. My children also thank > you, as I go, so they go. > > > peace out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2001 Report Share Posted May 12, 2001 goravani wrote: > > > > Hi > > I actually just now found a copy of a letter Wendy wrote about leaving the > list and Jyotish, and about SJVC etc. ..............etc .........etc. Dear Raghu, It is one of the best letters ever on the list. BTW there is something in your letter that I don´t follow: > > Chakrapain Ullall told me once personally > > "Indians bring all the bad from India to the West and spread it around, but > learn nothing of the good the Westerners could offer into their own lives". > I don´t see what "bad things" from India have come to the west (except me perhaps! Hahaha1). What did he mean by this? I just can´t think of anything Indian that has spoilt anything in the West. Please enlighten me. On the other hand I do wish Indians in India will learn social and civic sense from the Western European countries. Here in Europe there is occasional - sometimes "epidemic" - vandalism and callousness, but in general there is order and at least anonymous social consciousness, not to speak of various caritative societies and activities. But in India there is a pepetual vandalism, the vandalism of NEGLECT. Every street is a garbage dump, even the immediate surroundings of temples are covered with spit and shit. Public toilets are literally hell. No government can ever do anything, for the day after it gets inaugurated it gets voted out of office. Even in conditions of dire need patients are refused admission and treatment in hospitals, unless someone pays for the tratment in advance! If the poor suffer, it is their "deserved karma"! regards Mani Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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