Sv: SJVC, India, History, Wendy, Love Gurus

[Guest guest]

Namaste.

I think a point missed in Das's email, was that he had to go through this

intense devotion to a Guru, to reach his current awareness.

Hence theres really nothing wrong with having this devotion.

Das, may actually have taken on certain traits of his Guru, which is a great

plus.

Best wishes, Visti.

 

 

-

<kasi_visvanath

<gjlist>

Thursday, May 10, 2001 11:57 PM

[gjlist] SJVC, India, History, Wendy, Love Gurus

 

 

> Om Amrtesvaryai Namah!!

>

> Namaste Dasji!!

>

> Very eloquently put, dear brother...i loved your entire rave...it was

> sweet, loving and wonderfull..although anyone who has a Guru will

> probably disagree totally with your take on the Guru-Shishya thing as

> related to Westerners....

>

> In my own case i can see what you mean, and still hold my Guru,

> Ammachi in the highest regard...i am NOT one of the ones who goes

> around with a slack jaw, and dribbling chin, depending breathlessly

> upon every little act that Amma does (although i AM in awe of Her

> Majesty, and Her Divine Presence!)...i don't need that. it just gets

> in the way...i think we need to be clear just what is being reverenced

> here in this Guru Yoga or Guru Bhakti...

>

> as Sri Ramakrsna many times said the Guru IS NOT A PERSON, although

> the Guru may appear to be inhabiting a human body just like all the

> others...he is not a person in the way we are...as that ego stuff

> isn't there defining who he is...his ego will be merely a

> "burnt-rope".

>

> the "SatGuru" is nothing other than 'SAT-CHID-ANANDA'...the Divine

> Consciousness itself, which appears to the devotee in the guise of the

> human Guru....But ANY REAL GURU, will be always redirecting the

> devotee's attentions from Herself to the Divine Within both Her and

> Us, and telling the devotees that as She is, so are they...and Ammachi

> is always doing this...She is constantly, tirelessly reminding us to

> have faith in OURSELVES first..that really the Guru is the Indwelling

> Supreme Power dormant in our own Hearts...thus Guru is NOT a

> PERSON...but rather is that intelligent consciousness which is the

> REAL US...A real Guru will ALWAYS be teaching Her devotees to look

> within themselves...and NOT to rely upon HER PHYSICAL BODY and being

> close to it...

> Amma always says: "I am the you that is in you and you are the me that

> is in me." does this sound like some powertripping want all the

> attention Herself kind of cult leader????not to me.

> Amma's humility is LEGENDARY. She bows before the entire audience of

> devotees for very long times before beginning Her satsangas, and She

> really means it, as She sees that Divine Consciousness within Her is

> also within all of us...and She reverences THAT...She won't hesitate

> to tweak the ego though!!

>

> Amma has often said that those who are "with" Her have always been

> with Her...but She doesn't say that those who spend time in the body

> with Her at Her ashram or travelling around with Her, are necessarily

> any CLOSER to Her than those of us who live far away and only get to

> see Her once a year...Amma is ALWAYS emphasizing the INNER COMMUNION

> with the Divine and the Guru...the outer Guru has a purpose, which is

> to attract the mind in such Divine Love that one will be willing to

> surrender the ego unto this teacher, that the surgeon might be able to

> get to work...if we won't even go to the doctor, and refuse to lie

> down on the operating table, who do we have to blame for getting

> worse, but our own selves.

>

> This surrender again is NOT to a PERSON, but rather to the Beloved

> Deity as one Perceives and Loves Her...and it happens naturally over

> the years with Amma's training...either close beside Her in the body,

> or even long-distance...we Amma devotees are well aware thru many ways

> that Amma is paying attention to Her little children even though they

> might be far away physically...She knows what we are doing, and She

> offers us teachings Thru Her Grace thru all the every day events which

> we are going thru...the everyday tests, and trials, and such, are seen

> to be really Guru Prasad...

>

> Now this IS difficult for Westerners to appreciate as it seems that

> you are just giving yourself up to an airy-fairy idea, or a cult...but

> the real Amma devotees will know what i am referring to...Mother's

> little finger appears constantly in our everyday lives...and the

> appropriate "rewards" and discipline also.....

>

> so although i can understand what you are saying re Gurus and Culture

> and agree that in many cases what you are saying may be true, still,

> one should not throw out the Guru with the wash water, so to speak.

>

> if we are sick we still go to the doctor even though we know that

> there are many quacks out there....

>

> Just so, such Great Souls as Ammachi come into our lives to help us to

> grow to be adorable, that we might finally one day merge in that

> Sacred Om which is Her everyday experience.

>

> In my case, as in the classical way, i called and called out to my

> Beloved Divine Mother...crying and longing just like a little child,

> breathlessly, restlessly moaning for his Mother....and just as the

> sastras have promised...the Guru CAME to me...i didn't have to go to

> India....She came to ME...as a direct result of the calling and

> calling....so in my mind the ancients are merely absolutely correct,

> and perfectly factual when they say..."when the student is ready the

> Guru will appear." We get what we are looking for in the Guru

> department and if we don't have enough vairagya or discrimination, WE

> WILL GET BURNED by the opportunists out there in Guru robes...because

> being naive and greedy, we don't know what to look for....don't know

> what the atmosphere is like around a great soul...so of course we get

> taken...

>

> But IF WE ARE CALLING honestly, lovingly from the bottom of our

> hearts, do you think that when we are asking for Love the Divine

> Mother is going to give us stones?

>

> if we learn to trust our own hearts, and intuitions, we will be a lot

> further along when coming in contact with such Great Souls as Ammachi.

> Amma is NOT here to take us for a ride...except across the ocean of

> delusions!! if you don't believe me, then you should taste the cake

> yourself!!!

>

> For the faithful, no proof is necessary, and for the sceptic no proof

> will suffice!

>

> Let us follow the enlightening wisdom of our own hearts in this, and

> offer our hearfelt prayers to all the Devas and Devis that They will

> bless us in our Lives, and bring us to live with them in the Deva

> lokas...or better yet to make this earth a Deva Loka, by ourselves

> growing to be adorable!

>

> In the Divine Mother's Love,

> and in Her Service,

> this child

> of Hers

> humbly

> bows again and again

> saluting

> all the beloved

> Jyotishis

> on this List

> Who are all

> Her children

> and Verily

> Embodiments

> of the

> Sacred Om

> Itself!

>

> as ever,

> Your Own Self,

>

> visvanathan

>

> Om Amrtesvaryai Namah!!

>

>

>

> gjlist-

>

>

>

> Your use of is subject to

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Visti Larsen wrote:

> Namaste.

> I think a point missed in Das's email, was that he had to go through this

> intense devotion to a Guru, to reach his current awareness.

> Hence theres really nothing wrong with having this devotion.

> Das, may actually have taken on certain traits of his Guru, which is a great

> plus.

 

 

Dear Visti,

 

If Raghu deserves praise for his insight and awareness, i think I too qualify

for a good word. There is not one word in his letter with which I can disagree!

And I have never had a guru or sampradaya.

 

Yesterday was a great day for me, a hope for the future. I had one such great

day some years ago, when I was allowed to address a group of catholic nuns and

priests as well as protestant pastors and lay people at a meeting in a cloister.

I spoke about Christ and Krishna, how the sermon on the mount was the Gita in a

nutshell. You may not believe it, but the protestant pastors kissed me on the

cheek, the catholics literally knelt down and kissed my hand - all because one

nun came to me and said, "You are you, but Christ has spoken through your

mouth!"

 

Yesterday was less dramatic. The local pastor came to have tea with me. He is

now going to allow me to talk in the church, AND HELP ME TO START A BIBLE STUDY

GROUP!

 

The information is there all over the world, some call him Krishna, others

called him Manitou. Getting initiated by a guru is a matter of luck and chance.

As Robert said, guru only means teacher. To learn the sciences - sastras - we

certainly need gurus. You can teach yourself all the sciences from books, but

without a teacher to guide you it is tough. Even if the teacher is a poor

teacher, he at least shows you what you have to do - as it often happened to me.

 

But for understanding God we do not need anyone except our own intellect and

conscience. Many think they think, but never think till the end. That is why

they need gurus - to give them a kick when they stop thinking. But if you

yourself ask, "Have I thought enough? What can the opponent say to refute my

ideas?" you can be your own guru. For Conscience is GOD AS GURU! And He is in us

all the time!

 

Krishna or Christ or Ammachi etc. are gurus for many as a mental fix and their

words are enough for us. If we think hard enough, no one needs to interpret

anything for us. One cannot put the BPHS and the Gita on the same level!

Vasudeva Krishna, the transcendant Intelligence of the cosmos, the Lord of all

that exists, is not subject to the transits of saturn!

 

Yesterday I gave the pastor a small book called, "The credo of scientists". It

contains quotations from every great scientist right down to the 20th century:

and everyone expresses his or her deep faith in God. I myself had 2 uncles who

won the Nobel Prize: C.V. Raman and S. Chandrasekhar. The latter was chief of

the Chicago Observatory for decades. Both used to give lectures to lay people

and always expressed their faith in God. Neither was sanskrit scholar or had had

any gurus. I admired them, for they said they were trying to understand God´s

rules in the physical world. A third uncle, also a Nobel Prize winner, was S.

Radhakrishnan, who taught religion and philosophy at Oxford. He was a great

sanskrit scholar, had a guru as far as I can remember. (He was my neighbour).

BUT I DID NOT LIKE HIM. He wrote valuable translations and commentaries,he was

very polite and kind - but rather condescending(!)-, but many of his statements

were IMHO very stupid! Instead of correcting the views of westerners like Max

Müller and Colebrook, he extended their absurd ideas ad absurdum!

 

Last week the trees here were bare. today they are all green, blossoms all over.

a little bird sits on my window sill and keeps chirping sweetly all day. Is it

bird or Krishna, saying, "look, I am here! Come to me with love and to be

loved!"?

 

When second rate scientists throw the big bang theory or Darwinism at me, I just

say: "What banged and where? From where did that come from that exploded? Look,

I´ll give you a ton of earth, you can use the sunlight and the wind. Okay, I´ll

give you whatever chemicals you ask for, but only one ounce of each. Make me an

apple tree!" ... At school we had to learn a poem called, "Only God can make a

tree"

 

People analyse, but fail to synthesize! Can you put a broken egg together

again? Humpty Dumpty! Splitting the atom is one thing, but does not explain how

so much energy was packed into such a tiny thing!

 

Such questions are our gurus to God! In the Gayatri we pray that God ignites a

spark of his glory in our intellect. We must have the fuel, only God can ignite

- and the guru can only press the bellows or wave the fan!

 

God did not put millions and millions of souls outside India with the thought

that without Indian gurus or sampradaya they would perish! God comes to everyone

who invites him, no matter where one is! Sometimes even without an

invitation.....

 

There is a story of an Indian saint, who was a potter. He kneaded the clay for

the pots he made by trampling on it with his feet. One day his baby child

crawled to him and tried to catch his feet. Lost in his devotion for

Radha-krishna, he trampled the baby to death. His wife came in, saw what had

happenened ......... Totally contrite and shocked he prayed to Krishna for help.

krishna came, restored the child to life, but admonished the saint: "To love me

is not to get drunk with love, but to love what I have created!" The saint

became a great social worker.

 

Some 350 years ago i had an ancestor, a brahmin saint. He was going to perform

shraddha for his dead father and had invited the obligatory number of brahmins

for the ceremony. early in the morning he performed his sandyavandhana and

cokked the food to be offered to the brahmins. then came a beggar, oviously (?)

an "outcaste", who was literally dying of hunger. The saint, Sridhar (i have a

wonderful nephew of that name in the States!), took the beggar into his home,

washed his wounds and fed him with the food he had prepared for the sraddha. At

that moment the brahmins came, were shocked to see an outcaste in the house,

went into a rage and said, " This whole village is polluted now! Unless the

waters of the Ganga (ganges) wash it, it must be burnt down!" Sridhara´s plea

for humanity did not help. There was a well in his house. So he went to it and

said, "Ganga, please come and wash this village1" - Ganga is over a 1000 miles

away from that village! But the water in the well rose higher and higher,

flooded the village. the holy brahmins were silent and accepted the justice of

God!.... Even till 30 years ago this house was in the possession of my family.

It was then donated to the village as a Mutt. As far as i know, on the lunar

anniversary of that sraddha day the water in the well rises and overflows. In

later years it was led into a channel to get the water to flow into the river,

not flood the vlllage.

 

By taking an outcaste into his home and nursing him, Sridhara kicked his

sampradaya in the face! No tradition can overcome the principle of love, not

even truth! Truth is relative, in our world of Maya, NEVER the real truth. I

live in Germany. Some 60 years ago a jew might have hidden himself in my cellar.

If the SS came and asked me if I had seen that Jew, would I have spoken the

truth and betrayed him? i´d have said, "yes i saw him and he ran that way!" and

pointed to some street! Would God punish me for my falsehood? If he did, i

cannot love him!

 

It is only the principle that counts, not the teacher. Teachers may have feet of

clay, or one may misunderstand them: and the faith is shattered. But if you have

God as teacher, you can never be disappointed!

 

My dear Visti, i don´t know how old you are. But you sound young to me. I´m 67

and have thought of God at least 62 years. I did not play football or do any

sport, but sat and thought - my health was just too poor for sports! so i read

and thought.

 

Krishna said, "Know thy Self!"

 

This can be done only by introspection, no guru can ever teach you to

understand yourself! Kasi-visvanathan swarms about having found Ammachi as

Guru. I agree with all his philosphical views, but have a perpetual debate

about it: He says That Ammachi has given him enlightenment.

 

Ammachi is a a spring of enlightenmeent, that flows for all - NOT directed at

any particular soul. If KV has drunk from this spring and learnt, it is because

he had the thirst! Ammachi´s teaching was always there, but it was his

readiness to understand that b rought him the wisddom.

 

In the last analysis, this is the deciding factor: Do you have the thirst? If

YOU have no thirst, you will go past all the wonderful springs!

 

If you deny all the souls who have no sampradaya or guru an entry to vaikunta,

you may end up with having obtained entry permits to Vaikunta for many, but NOT

FOR YOURSELF!

 

STOP JUDGING OVER RAGHU! Of Raghu (Das) one can say, "Ecce homo!" ... Behold the

MAN! He is burdened with all sorts of problems in human life of the present day!

If you think you have solved all his problems through your understanding of the

vargas and whatnot, you have not understood the human problem! Your jyothish

may explain and perhaps help, BUT IT CAN NEVER COMFORT! It cannot dry one human

tear, or heal one wound in the heart!

 

You cannot teach Raghu. He is learning from God! Through life! You seemm to be

"speculaing " about life, but Raghu is going through it!

 

His experiences will be more valuable than your postulations!

 

regards

Mani

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

regards

Mani