What is...what has begun..and what will be...

[Guest guest]

Hello all,

I have only followed the thread of this discussion with abit of pretentiousness

and mirth, if I may exculpate my persona from the quagmire......

Just kidding!

If I may be so bold and full of abandonment, I would like to put forth a Cancer

ascendant for Osama Bin Laden, putting the time of birth at 14:45 03/10/1957

Jiddah, Saudi Arabia.

And I admit a certain bias (the deviation of the true value of a statistic

obtained in random sampling from its estimated value) in regards to this opinion

of ascendant.

First point the I want to consider is the Pushya ascendant, though there are

many things to be considered with this ascendant, I want only to mention that

the primary motivation is Dharma. This put the Guru 9th lord in the 3d

aspecting the 10th lord in the 11th house of gains. The mind (5th house is

darkened by the great malefic Saturn for cancer ascendants) and also aspected by

Mars yogakaraka from the 11th. Ascendant ruler in the 12 of renunciation, ketu

moksha karaka in the 10th house of career aspecting Rahu in the 4th of home and

happiness etc..

Jupiter 6th lord of enemies in the 3rd an upachaya, and the 6th lord of enemies

in the 8th does not allow enemies to make very strong progress against him.

Rahu disturbs the home (land) in his case.

Sun in Purva Bhadrapada 2nd house lord, reveals a strong urge to be focused on

an ideal or vision for the future. Purva Bhadrapada grants a universal vision

through intense internal purification. The ruling planet is Jupiter which

connects this nakshatra with the Brahmans.

Ketu in Krittika allows for spiritual perception in career, and of course a

tenacious will to achieve greatness. It is the fighter for a social cause, the

spiritual warrior.

When you also assess the environment in which the hero of the masses was raised

you have to acknowledge the integrity to which he has remained firm to his

truth.

I know from fact that the US and allies killed no less than 100 thousand people

indiscriminately on one highway towards the end of the golf war, and who are the

Americans to be above Karma? They killed women, children and anything that

moved with seeming impunity, except the eternal witness sees all, records all,

and balances all....

That is a very small percentage of the brutality of the US in the past 100

years, so what makes you so great? Money artha? when does that become before

Dharma? Who are thes manipulating, indoctrinating, propaganda lying elite that

can exist above God's law of balance???? They control the media and all you are

spoon fed, and have been since your inception into so called education there

version of it anyway..... so if they take a hit are you really so pained??

They want you to be!! that is why they have allow there air waves to be so full

of things that work towards the fulfillment of there agendas, mainly ONE world

government, ie control... create the situation and the masses will rise up in

support....

wake up!!!!!!!!!

please wake up!!!!

don't eat the leavings of there plate, it is not prasada I assure you!

There are 5 ingredients to the completion of any action, and one of them is

Divine will, and some on the list know exactly what I mean, so I will not

elaborate, and one of them is Divine will.

The elite have been shaping your minds for many years, and they know the

expected results, the play in the shadows, and are seldom seen or heard, but

they put your governments in place, and osama kicked them in the nuts!!!

they of course will recover and will use their incredible resources to destroy

him and those that dare think like him... but consider all the things at play

here, and always ask yourself who will ultimately benefit for this action?

People let not ideologies or dogma separate us in this time of chaos, but let

the spirit of wanting of follow the spirit of dharma unify us and let us with

equipoise examine the many possibilities that exist.

I have had many sources over the years to suggest these conclusions and never

venture an opinion lightly, so delete as your samskaras dictate, those not so

predisposed consider.....

Respectfully,

Don

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

-

Don

gjlist

Saturday, September 15, 2001 3:34 AM

What is...what has begun..and what will be...

 

 

Hello all,

I have only followed the thread of this discussion with abit of pretentiousness

and mirth, if I may exculpate my persona from the quagmire......

Just kidding!

If I may be so bold and full of abandonment, I would like to put forth a Cancer

ascendant for Osama Bin Laden, putting the time of birth at 14:45 03/10/1957

Jiddah, Saudi Arabia.

And I admit a certain bias (the deviation of the true value of a statistic

obtained in random sampling from its estimated value) in regards to this opinion

of ascendant.

First point the I want to consider is the Pushya ascendant, though there are

many things to be considered with this ascendant, I want only to mention that

the primary motivation is Dharma. This put the Guru 9th lord in the 3d

aspecting the 10th lord in the 11th house of gains. The mind (5th house is

darkened by the great malefic Saturn for cancer ascendants) and also aspected by

Mars yogakaraka from the 11th. Ascendant ruler in the 12 of renunciation, ketu

moksha karaka in the 10th house of career aspecting Rahu in the 4th of home and

happiness etc..

Jupiter 6th lord of enemies in the 3rd an upachaya, and the 6th lord of enemies

in the 8th does not allow enemies to make very strong progress against him.

Rahu disturbs the home (land) in his case.

Sun in Purva Bhadrapada 2nd house lord, reveals a strong urge to be focused on

an ideal or vision for the future. Purva Bhadrapada grants a universal vision

through intense internal purification. The ruling planet is Jupiter which

connects this nakshatra with the Brahmans.

Ketu in Krittika allows for spiritual perception in career, and of course a

tenacious will to achieve greatness. It is the fighter for a social cause, the

spiritual warrior.

When you also assess the environment in which the hero of the masses was raised

you have to acknowledge the integrity to which he has remained firm to his

truth.

I know from fact that the US and allies killed no less than 100 thousand people

indiscriminately on one highway towards the end of the golf war, and who are the

Americans to be above Karma? They killed women, children and anything that

moved with seeming impunity, except the eternal witness sees all, records all,

and balances all....

That is a very small percentage of the brutality of the US in the past 100

years, so what makes you so great? Money artha? when does that become before

Dharma? Who are thes manipulating, indoctrinating, propaganda lying elite that

can exist above God's law of balance???? They control the media and all you are

spoon fed, and have been since your inception into so called education there

version of it anyway..... so if they take a hit are you really so pained??

They want you to be!! that is why they have allow there air waves to be so full

of things that work towards the fulfillment of there agendas, mainly ONE world

government, ie control... create the situation and the masses will rise up in

support....

wake up!!!!!!!!!

please wake up!!!!

don't eat the leavings of there plate, it is not prasada I assure you!

There are 5 ingredients to the completion of any action, and one of them is

Divine will, and some on the list know exactly what I mean, so I will not

elaborate, and one of them is Divine will.

The elite have been shaping your minds for many years, and they know the

expected results, the play in the shadows, and are seldom seen or heard, but

they put your governments in place, and osama kicked them in the nuts!!!

they of course will recover and will use their incredible resources to destroy

him and those that dare think like him... but consider all the things at play

here, and always ask yourself who will ultimately benefit for this action?

People let not ideologies or dogma separate us in this time of chaos, but let

the spirit of wanting of follow the spirit of dharma unify us and let us with

equipoise examine the many possibilities that exist.

I have had many sources over the years to suggest these conclusions and never

venture an opinion lightly, so delete as your samskaras dictate, those not so

predisposed consider.....

Respectfully,

Don

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Wow!!

 

That's really spitting some chips Don. I must say your post has taken me by

surprise......

 

Whilst I agree with you that Cancer rising (Bin Laden) is a possibility, I can't

agree with the rest of your post. I think we should be sensitive to the fact

that America (and our American colleagues) have just undergone a terrible

tragedy. They're still searching for their dead for goodness sake!

 

Let's have some compassion for their suffering!!

 

We all have our own political views, myself included...globalisation is having

an enormously detrimental effect on ordinary Australians who watch helplessly as

their whole economic structure is taken over by multi-nationals. Even such

things as Dairy farms and crop farms have fallen prey to foreign ownership.

Ordinary Australians have become disenfranchised. We now have a new class of

people here called "the working poor"........the basic wage is below the poverty

line and the most disadvantaged (pensioners and unemployed) in our society, live

a life of absolute poverty.

 

The anger and frustration grows here as we watch our Country get sold out from

under us. This is a dreadful state of affairs! For many, the hope for a better

life slips further and further away as the rich get richer and richer.

 

But this is not (singularly) due to US influence. Some of the major players in

this great injustice are Australians. The media tycoon Rupert Murdoch is one I

can name. It's a dreadful thing that's happened to the people of the World. We

now have what is known as "Corporate politics"...big business runs the World

today and our politicians are their puppets.

 

What to do? It's a dreadful situation the World is in today!

 

Rgds, Wendy

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Don and list,

 

My apologies for being so vociferous but, in light of this anti-US sentiment

that's springing up, I'd like to point out that, although the attack was aimed

at the powers that be, it was innocent American citizens that paid the price.

People like you and me who were getting on with their daily lives...working hard

for a living, raising families. They were not responsible for the ills of the

third World.

 

Much has been said about the demonic Western World deserving what it gets. Well,

in my opinion, sentiments such as these are demonic and can only lead to more

suffering and hatred. To condone such dreadful acts of terrorism is

sinful...there can be no justification for taking innocent lives.

 

Wendy

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Yes it was Wendy,

and I do understand the shock and confusion of those innocent people that

this has affected, it is not to them that my finger points...it is the same

greedy muti-nationals you mention, and they are not all American, in fact

many are European, shadowy characters that grace the Trilateral Commission,

the Builderburgers, Committee of 300, etc etc...they and other elite are

slowly pulling the carpet out from all of us and we better soon wake up to

it... the few can't really control the many without their consent, that is

why they manufacture it as Noam Chomsky so eloquently put it.

I knew with out a doubt I stood a good possibility that I would be

misunderstood, but that goes with the territory... I love people for who

they as individuals, country of birth has nothing to do with it, it is the

integrity and character that has meaning to me... And I hate adharmic

people that will use people with total disregard for their well being as

long as it serves their ends......

People are waking up to the game and sometimes like wag the dog our

attention is misdirected, as in any good magick, so don't take you eye of

the one who stand to gain from this....

Respectfully

Don

 

-

"Wendy Vasicek" <wenvas

<gjlist>

Saturday, September 15, 2001 8:11 AM

Re: [gjlist] What is...what has begun..and what will be...

 

 

> Wow!!

>

> That's really spitting some chips Don. I must say your post has taken me

by surprise......

>

> Whilst I agree with you that Cancer rising (Bin Laden) is a possibility, I

can't agree with the rest of your post. I think we should be sensitive to

the fact that America (and our American colleagues) have just undergone a

terrible tragedy. They're still searching for their dead for goodness sake!

>

> Let's have some compassion for their suffering!!

>

> We all have our own political views, myself included...globalisation is

having an enormously detrimental effect on ordinary Australians who watch

helplessly as their whole economic structure is taken over by

multi-nationals. Even such things as Dairy farms and crop farms have fallen

prey to foreign ownership. Ordinary Australians have become disenfranchised.

We now have a new class of people here called "the working poor"........the

basic wage is below the poverty line and the most disadvantaged (pensioners

and unemployed) in our society, live a life of absolute poverty.

>

> The anger and frustration grows here as we watch our Country get sold out

from under us. This is a dreadful state of affairs! For many, the hope for a

better life slips further and further away as the rich get richer and

richer.

>

> But this is not (singularly) due to US influence. Some of the major

players in this great injustice are Australians. The media tycoon Rupert

Murdoch is one I can name. It's a dreadful thing that's happened to the

people of the World. We now have what is known as "Corporate politics"...big

business runs the World today and our politicians are their puppets.

>

> What to do? It's a dreadful situation the World is in today!

>

> Rgds, Wendy

>

>

>

>

>

>

> gjlist-

>

>

>

> Your use of is subject to

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Wendy Vasicek wrote:

> Dear Don and list,

>

> My apologies for being so vociferous but, in light of this anti-US sentiment

> that's springing up, I'd like to point out that, although the attack was

> aimed at the powers that be, it was innocent American citizens that paid the

> price. ...

> Much has been said about the demonic Western World deserving what it gets.

> Well, in my opinion, sentiments such as these are demonic and can only lead

> to more suffering and hatred. To condone such dreadful acts of terrorism is

> sinful...there can be no justification for taking innocent lives.

 

 

Dear Wendy,

 

Firstly it is NOT anti-US sentiment that seems to be growing: where? at present

in Europe almost every city has expressed its solidarity with the US, all sorts

of planned performances have been cancelled without worrying about the costs and

losses, everywhere people are meeting in churches and squares, lighting candles,

laying wreaths, singing the US anthem, observing silence, the trains and

transport stopped and people on the streets stood still and prayed. At least on

TV i saw many, many breaking out in tears as I did when I heard/saw the news

firsz!

 

But people like me - and there are many "experts" from various disciplines in

Germany who think like me - are only trying to find the CAUSE for this

tremendous hate, which led to this tremendous tragedy. we are not callous if we

see - or think we see - the cause. Almost 100 years of injustice has been done

to the people of the Middle-East by Western nations. And it is no surprise if

this sort of reaction comes now.

 

People like me are NOT SMUGLY "telling" the US that it is getting what it

deserves. NO! To start with, we are separating the US citizens from their

government(s). What we mean is: Look what your policies have brought! To help

the interests of a few, you are sowing the seeds of hate - AND EXPOSING YOUR

PEOPLE AND THE PEOPLE IN OUR COUNTRIES TO TERROR AND DESTRUCTION!

 

Only the American people can compel their government to take a sane and humane

step: don´t waste the money on retaliation, but give massive help to the people

in the MiddleEast - not to the dictators but directly to the people there. A

contented people will not breed terrorists. The people there don´t have even a

decent WC! For years the germans were pictured as ENEMY. But the hearts of the

Germans was won when the GIs threw out chocolates, when the CARE packets

arrived, when the Marshall aid was given. I once spoke of sama, dhana, bedha,

dhanda. Djhana has never been properly tried. Money was given to regimes, which

pocketed the money, transferred it to Switzerland and spent nothing for the

people - only to buy oil rights!

 

We, the silent majority, are responsible because we are silent! In the 60s the

world movement of youth finally put an end to the stupid VietNam war. We cannot

afford to be silent and good. We elect our governments every few years - and

this time in the Us a president rules, whose mandate was questioned. after that

we have no say. There is only one true democracy in the world: switzerland.

Every important decision is decided by referundum.

 

Sentiment has to go hand in hand with sense.

 

regards

Mani

[Guest guest]

Dear Wendy

If only things wers so simple as propounded by the multinationals or the

conspiracy theorists .The truth lies between the two .Who owns the

multinationals ? The share holders .Who owns the shares ? Well in Australia

the vast majority are owned by worker's superannuation funds .So the

benficiaries of profit growth are the workers .I used to think the way you

have expressed but now realise that it is more complex and that in the end

one's karma plays itself out .Neither the government or the multinationals

have complete freedom to enact change to correct the growing discrepancies

between the rich and the poor but should constantly strive to make this an

objective . The reality is that when the rich and powerful get together at

these international conferences they decide what will be good for the rich

and powerful .

Best Wishes

Nicholas

>

> We all have our own political views, myself included...globalisation is

having an enormously detrimental effect on ordinary Australians who watch

helplessly as their whole economic structure is taken over by

multi-nationals. Even such things as Dairy farms and crop farms have fallen

prey to foreign ownership. Ordinary Australians have become disenfranchised.

We now have a new class of people here called "the working poor"........the

basic wage is below the poverty line and the most disadvantaged (pensioners

and unemployed) in our society, live a life of absolute poverty.

>

> The anger and frustration grows here as we watch our Country get sold out

from under us. This is a dreadful state of affairs! For many, the hope for a

better life slips further and further away as the rich get richer and

richer.

>

> But this is not (singularly) due to US influence. Some of the major

players in this great injustice are Australians. The media tycoon Rupert

Murdoch is one I can name. It's a dreadful thing that's happened to the

people of the World. We now have what is known as "Corporate politics"...big

business runs the World today and our politicians are their puppets.

>

> What to do? It's a dreadful situation the World is in today!

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Mani

You have agood point on this one.During the Vietnam war the Americans spent

up to 100 times the amount fighting the war than aiding the people .The

developed counties need to do more to help the less fortunate .The

difficultty now is that this will be seen as rewarding terrorism .

Kind regards

Nicholas

-

<subra

<gjlist>

Sunday, September 16, 2001 6:55 AM

Re: [gjlist] What is...what has begun..and what will be...

 

 

> Wendy Vasicek wrote:

> > Dear Don and list,

> >

> > My apologies for being so vociferous but, in light of this anti-US

sentiment

> > that's springing up, I'd like to point out that, although the attack

was

> > aimed at the powers that be, it was innocent American citizens that

paid the

> > price. ...

> > Much has been said about the demonic Western World deserving what it

gets.

> > Well, in my opinion, sentiments such as these are demonic and can only

lead

> > to more suffering and hatred. To condone such dreadful acts of

terrorism is

> > sinful...there can be no justification for taking innocent lives.

>

>

> Dear Wendy,

>

> Firstly it is NOT anti-US sentiment that seems to be growing: where? at

present

> in Europe almost every city has expressed its solidarity with the US, all

sorts

> of planned performances have been cancelled without worrying about the

costs and

> losses, everywhere people are meeting in churches and squares, lighting

candles,

> laying wreaths, singing the US anthem, observing silence, the trains and

> transport stopped and people on the streets stood still and prayed. At

least on

> TV i saw many, many breaking out in tears as I did when I heard/saw the

news

> firsz!

>

> But people like me - and there are many "experts" from various disciplines

in

> Germany who think like me - are only trying to find the CAUSE for this

> tremendous hate, which led to this tremendous tragedy. we are not callous

if we

> see - or think we see - the cause. Almost 100 years of injustice has been

done

> to the people of the Middle-East by Western nations. And it is no

surprise if

> this sort of reaction comes now.

>

> People like me are NOT SMUGLY "telling" the US that it is getting what it

> deserves. NO! To start with, we are separating the US citizens from their

> government(s). What we mean is: Look what your policies have brought! To

help

> the interests of a few, you are sowing the seeds of hate - AND EXPOSING

YOUR

> PEOPLE AND THE PEOPLE IN OUR COUNTRIES TO TERROR AND DESTRUCTION!

>

> Only the American people can compel their government to take a sane and

humane

> step: don´t waste the money on retaliation, but give massive help to the

people

> in the MiddleEast - not to the dictators but directly to the people there.

A

> contented people will not breed terrorists. The people there don´t have

even a

> decent WC! For years the germans were pictured as ENEMY. But the hearts

of the

> Germans was won when the GIs threw out chocolates, when the CARE packets

> arrived, when the Marshall aid was given. I once spoke of sama, dhana,

bedha,

> dhanda. Djhana has never been properly tried. Money was given to regimes,

which

> pocketed the money, transferred it to Switzerland and spent nothing for

the

> people - only to buy oil rights!

>

> We, the silent majority, are responsible because we are silent! In the 60s

the

> world movement of youth finally put an end to the stupid VietNam war. We

cannot

> afford to be silent and good. We elect our governments every few years -

and

> this time in the Us a president rules, whose mandate was questioned. after

that

> we have no say. There is only one true democracy in the world:

switzerland.

> Every important decision is decided by referundum.

>

> Sentiment has to go hand in hand with sense.

>

> regards

> Mani

>

>

>

> gjlist-

>

>

>

> Your use of is subject to

>

>

[Guest guest]

How many US citizens are aware of US government foreign policy.. Most

of them even dont know who is their president.

Distinguish People from POLITICS.

U can grasp the gist from Mani`s comments

 

Regards, Venkat

 

> Wendy Vasicek wrote:

> > Dear Don and list,

> >

> > My apologies for being so vociferous but, in light of this anti-

US sentiment

> > that's springing up, I'd like to point out that, although the

attack was

> > aimed at the powers that be, it was innocent American citizens

that paid the

> > price. ...

> > Much has been said about the demonic Western World deserving what

it gets.

> > Well, in my opinion, sentiments such as these are demonic and

can only lead

> > to more suffering and hatred. To condone such dreadful acts of

terrorism is

> > sinful...there can be no justification for taking innocent lives.

>

>

> Dear Wendy,

>

> Firstly it is NOT anti-US sentiment that seems to be growing:

where? at present

> in Europe almost every city has expressed its solidarity with the

US, all sorts

> of planned performances have been cancelled without worrying about

the costs and

> losses, everywhere people are meeting in churches and squares,

lighting candles,

> laying wreaths, singing the US anthem, observing silence, the

trains and

> transport stopped and people on the streets stood still and prayed.

At least on

> TV i saw many, many breaking out in tears as I did when I heard/saw

the news

> firsz!

>

> But people like me - and there are many "experts" from various

disciplines in

> Germany who think like me - are only trying to find the CAUSE for

this

> tremendous hate, which led to this tremendous tragedy. we are not

callous if we

> see - or think we see - the cause. Almost 100 years of injustice

has been done

> to the people of the Middle-East by Western nations. And it is no

surprise if

> this sort of reaction comes now.

>

> People like me are NOT SMUGLY "telling" the US that it is getting

what it

> deserves. NO! To start with, we are separating the US citizens from

their

> government(s). What we mean is: Look what your policies have

brought! To help

> the interests of a few, you are sowing the seeds of hate - AND

EXPOSING YOUR

> PEOPLE AND THE PEOPLE IN OUR COUNTRIES TO TERROR AND DESTRUCTION!

>

> Only the American people can compel their government to take a sane

and humane

> step: don´t waste the money on retaliation, but give massive help

to the people

> in the MiddleEast - not to the dictators but directly to the people

there. A

> contented people will not breed terrorists. The people there don´t

have even a

> decent WC! For years the germans were pictured as ENEMY. But the

hearts of the

> Germans was won when the GIs threw out chocolates, when the CARE

packets

> arrived, when the Marshall aid was given. I once spoke of sama,

dhana, bedha,

> dhanda. Djhana has never been properly tried. Money was given to

regimes, which

> pocketed the money, transferred it to Switzerland and spent nothing

for the

> people - only to buy oil rights!

>

> We, the silent majority, are responsible because we are silent! In

the 60s the

> world movement of youth finally put an end to the stupid VietNam

war. We cannot

> afford to be silent and good. We elect our governments every few

years - and

> this time in the Us a president rules, whose mandate was

questioned. after that

> we have no say. There is only one true democracy in the world:

switzerland.

> Every important decision is decided by referundum.

>

> Sentiment has to go hand in hand with sense.

>

> regards

> Mani

[Guest guest]

Dear Wendy,

 

Please do not take this as impertinence or aggressiveness. but i ask you, Why

should you are I weep for the victims of WTC? It was their destiny, for past

sins. We could weep for those left behind, the wives or husbands who lost their

partners, the children who lost their parents. But that too is destiny, the

result of past sins. So why weep at all?

 

You brought in the idea of compassion - at first towards me, then others. Does

it not mean that the law of love is higher than that of destiny and karma? That

the practice of love can conquer all karma?

 

love

Mani

[Guest guest]

> Dear Wendy,

>

> Please do not take this as impertinence or aggressiveness. but i

ask you, Why

> should you are I weep for the victims of WTC? It was their destiny,

for past

> sins. We could weep for those left behind, the wives or husbands

who lost their

> partners, the children who lost their parents. But that too is

destiny, the

> result of past sins. So why weep at all?

>

> You brought in the idea of compassion - at first towards me, then

others. Does

> it not mean that the law of love is higher than that of destiny and

karma? That

> the practice of love can conquer all karma?

 

 

hmm, Universal love is the solution..Create borderless world. No

discriminations..These things are impossible ==> No Universal love

==> Weepings

 

Regards, Venkat

 

>

> love

> Mani

[Guest guest]

You talk about 100 years of injustice the West has done to the

middle-east...and while I have no knowledge about how many years (100 or

more or less)...I agree with the statement. I believe the West has used the

middle-east for it's own selfish needs at times...and I also believe the

West has done things to help....

 

A couple of things...I find it interesting that your willing to put so much

blame and possible hatred for the West with no talk about the injustice the

middle-east has brought upon itself since pre-biblical days.

 

Accountability is for all of us to take...the entire world, the West

included has created this mess....and it will take all of us to get

out...starting with everyone taking accountability for their own personal

hatred....even of the so called evil West.

 

While I think it would be great for the Governments and the Powers of the

world to give everyone help....I am not sure how that solves the "root"

issues you talk about finding.

 

You said "A contented people will not breed terrorists." I am curious where

these contented people are now? The West? Do you remember Tim McViegh? He

lived in a Country that I would suppose had all the help of the West

available to him

 

I also found it interesting that you only spoke of money...the money given

to the leaders of other countries that they put in Swiss bank accounts and

do as they please for selfish reasons....So, given that statement, are you

talking about giving money to the world population to make them content? Is

that what will make Bin Laden (assuming he is responsible) give up his days

of killing innocents and turn him into a peace loving man? Would have

giving everyone in the world a million dollars prevented the horror of

9-11-01?

 

What makes a people contented? Money? A house? Running water? Nice cars?

Food? A place of worship? If a human being has everything it takes to make

him content today...will it be enough to make him content tomorrow? If not,

who gives them the contentedness day after day after day?

 

So, I am curious about two things...what makes a people content? What

should be "gifted" to the entire world to make us all content? Second, what

makes you think anyone wants to be content...and how does that stop hate and

madness?

 

Lastly, about the US President. One thing that is so amazing about this

country (the US) is our electoral process. Rules...processes...about

everything...exists...and they are followed. And, if you don't like the

process, you are free to publicly say anything you want about it...Bush was

not the first US President to loose the popular vote but win the Electoral

College vote (several others in time past)....I am not really sure what

press covered world wide...but...I do agree that after Bush "won"....his

mandate was questioned...two things have followed since then....

 

1. All the ballots in Florida have since been re-counted (paid for by major

news organizations that have been proven to be more liberal then

conservative)....and guess what, when all the ballots were

re-counted...using the most liberal standards (meaning if the chad was

pregnant, hanging or whatever, it was counted for that person)...and Bush

still won. I'll say that again. After all the votes were counted again

(after Bush had taken office mind you)...it showed Bush won....since then,

their has been no real questioning of him being in the office

2. The process is the process that we use in this Country....this is not a

Democracy...never has been, and hopefully will never be...the popular votes

never wins just because it is the popular vote. We are a representative

republic. Other countries elect by popular vote....or their own unique

way...I respect their chosen way of electing officials as much as our's

3. Speaking as an American...we stand behind our President...regardless of

our likes for him. Especially in times like this. In New York yesterday

Bush was greeted by cheering New Yorkers...who voted overwhelmingly for

Gore...It does not matter who he is...what party he leads...he is our

president...and has a full mandate from an overwhelming majority of

Americans...so while it might be beneficial to your point to talk about the

questionable mandate of Bush...the Truth that he won after all the votes

were counted, and in office (documented in every major American

Newspaper)...and the fact that as of then, and especially today, Bush has

the mandate of the country...may, or may not want to enter into your

arguments.

 

As a US citizen, my heart is comforted when I see the display of love the

world has shown. The majority of the world has shown more American

Patriotism then most US citizens displayed less then a year ago.

 

As much as many try to make this a West, or a US attack...this is an attack

on Freedom around the world. It is an attack on peace loving people

everywhere. It could have just as easily been Germany, or Japan, or France,

England etc....this could have been anywhere...anyone....anyone of us could

have been killed last Tuesday....

 

Can the world...can anyone, can you be content in a world where everyone has

money and so much senseless killing is allowed to happen with no punishment

brought to those doing the killing?

 

 

Scott MacDonald

scottmd1

248.212.7588

 

 

subra [subra]

Saturday, September 15, 2001 4:55 PM

gjlist

Re: [gjlist] What is...what has begun..and what will be...

 

Wendy Vasicek wrote:

> Dear Don and list,

>

> My apologies for being so vociferous but, in light of this anti-US

sentiment

> that's springing up, I'd like to point out that, although the attack was

> aimed at the powers that be, it was innocent American citizens that paid

the

> price. ...

> Much has been said about the demonic Western World deserving what it gets.

> Well, in my opinion, sentiments such as these are demonic and can only

lead

> to more suffering and hatred. To condone such dreadful acts of terrorism

is

> sinful...there can be no justification for taking innocent lives.

 

 

Dear Wendy,

 

Firstly it is NOT anti-US sentiment that seems to be growing: where? at

present

in Europe almost every city has expressed its solidarity with the US, all

sorts

of planned performances have been cancelled without worrying about the costs

and

losses, everywhere people are meeting in churches and squares, lighting

candles,

laying wreaths, singing the US anthem, observing silence, the trains and

transport stopped and people on the streets stood still and prayed. At least

on

TV i saw many, many breaking out in tears as I did when I heard/saw the news

firsz!

 

But people like me - and there are many "experts" from various disciplines

in

Germany who think like me - are only trying to find the CAUSE for this

tremendous hate, which led to this tremendous tragedy. we are not callous

if we

see - or think we see - the cause. Almost 100 years of injustice has been

done

to the people of the Middle-East by Western nations. And it is no surprise

if

this sort of reaction comes now.

 

People like me are NOT SMUGLY "telling" the US that it is getting what it

deserves. NO! To start with, we are separating the US citizens from their

government(s). What we mean is: Look what your policies have brought! To

help

the interests of a few, you are sowing the seeds of hate - AND EXPOSING YOUR

PEOPLE AND THE PEOPLE IN OUR COUNTRIES TO TERROR AND DESTRUCTION!

 

Only the American people can compel their government to take a sane and

humane

step: don´t waste the money on retaliation, but give massive help to the

people

in the MiddleEast - not to the dictators but directly to the people there. A

contented people will not breed terrorists. The people there don´t have even

a

decent WC! For years the germans were pictured as ENEMY. But the hearts of

the

Germans was won when the GIs threw out chocolates, when the CARE packets

arrived, when the Marshall aid was given. I once spoke of sama, dhana,

bedha,

dhanda. Djhana has never been properly tried. Money was given to regimes,

which

pocketed the money, transferred it to Switzerland and spent nothing for the

people - only to buy oil rights!

 

We, the silent majority, are responsible because we are silent! In the 60s

the

world movement of youth finally put an end to the stupid VietNam war. We

cannot

afford to be silent and good. We elect our governments every few years - and

this time in the Us a president rules, whose mandate was questioned. after

that

we have no say. There is only one true democracy in the world: switzerland.

Every important decision is decided by referundum.

 

Sentiment has to go hand in hand with sense.

 

regards

Mani

 

 

 

gjlist-

 

 

 

Your use of is subject to

[Guest guest]

Why does it have to be a reward?

 

Why is their so much resistance to bringing those who pretreated such

senseless act's of killing to justice?

 

Bring them to justice....then the world can ban together to "help" or make

"content" (whatever that means)...then the world gets safer and better for

all..........

 

Seriously, why is there so much resistance on this list to bring "justice"

(as defined by the laws of the current world) to those who just killed 5,000

+ people in less then two hours?

 

Would it really be a better world to allow this to continue? To allow those

who did it get away and do greater things (give an inch, take a mile)

 

 

Scott MacDonald

scottmd1

248.212.7588

 

 

Nicholas [costa]

Saturday, September 15, 2001 5:40 PM

gjlist

Re: [gjlist] What is...what has begun..and what will be...

 

Dear Mani

You have agood point on this one.During the Vietnam war the Americans spent

up to 100 times the amount fighting the war than aiding the people .The

developed counties need to do more to help the less fortunate .The

difficultty now is that this will be seen as rewarding terrorism .

Kind regards

Nicholas

-

<subra

<gjlist>

Sunday, September 16, 2001 6:55 AM

Re: [gjlist] What is...what has begun..and what will be...

 

 

> Wendy Vasicek wrote:

> > Dear Don and list,

> >

> > My apologies for being so vociferous but, in light of this anti-US

sentiment

> > that's springing up, I'd like to point out that, although the attack

was

> > aimed at the powers that be, it was innocent American citizens that

paid the

> > price. ...

> > Much has been said about the demonic Western World deserving what it

gets.

> > Well, in my opinion, sentiments such as these are demonic and can only

lead

> > to more suffering and hatred. To condone such dreadful acts of

terrorism is

> > sinful...there can be no justification for taking innocent lives.

>

>

> Dear Wendy,

>

> Firstly it is NOT anti-US sentiment that seems to be growing: where? at

present

> in Europe almost every city has expressed its solidarity with the US, all

sorts

> of planned performances have been cancelled without worrying about the

costs and

> losses, everywhere people are meeting in churches and squares, lighting

candles,

> laying wreaths, singing the US anthem, observing silence, the trains and

> transport stopped and people on the streets stood still and prayed. At

least on

> TV i saw many, many breaking out in tears as I did when I heard/saw the

news

> firsz!

>

> But people like me - and there are many "experts" from various disciplines

in

> Germany who think like me - are only trying to find the CAUSE for this

> tremendous hate, which led to this tremendous tragedy. we are not callous

if we

> see - or think we see - the cause. Almost 100 years of injustice has been

done

> to the people of the Middle-East by Western nations. And it is no

surprise if

> this sort of reaction comes now.

>

> People like me are NOT SMUGLY "telling" the US that it is getting what it

> deserves. NO! To start with, we are separating the US citizens from their

> government(s). What we mean is: Look what your policies have brought! To

help

> the interests of a few, you are sowing the seeds of hate - AND EXPOSING

YOUR

> PEOPLE AND THE PEOPLE IN OUR COUNTRIES TO TERROR AND DESTRUCTION!

>

> Only the American people can compel their government to take a sane and

humane

> step: don´t waste the money on retaliation, but give massive help to the

people

> in the MiddleEast - not to the dictators but directly to the people there.

A

> contented people will not breed terrorists. The people there don´t have

even a

> decent WC! For years the germans were pictured as ENEMY. But the hearts

of the

> Germans was won when the GIs threw out chocolates, when the CARE packets

> arrived, when the Marshall aid was given. I once spoke of sama, dhana,

bedha,

> dhanda. Djhana has never been properly tried. Money was given to regimes,

which

> pocketed the money, transferred it to Switzerland and spent nothing for

the

> people - only to buy oil rights!

>

> We, the silent majority, are responsible because we are silent! In the 60s

the

> world movement of youth finally put an end to the stupid VietNam war. We

cannot

> afford to be silent and good. We elect our governments every few years -

and

> this time in the Us a president rules, whose mandate was questioned. after

that

> we have no say. There is only one true democracy in the world:

switzerland.

> Every important decision is decided by referundum.

>

> Sentiment has to go hand in hand with sense.

>

> regards

> Mani

>

>

>

> gjlist-

>

>

>

> Your use of is subject to

>

>

 

 

 

gjlist-

 

 

 

Your use of is subject to

[Guest guest]

Dear Wendy

 

 

At 11:11 PM 9/15/01 +0800, you wrote:

>Wow!!

>

>That's really spitting some chips Don. I must say your post has taken me

>by surprise......

>

>Whilst I agree with you that Cancer rising (Bin Laden) is a possibility, I

>can't agree with the rest of your post. I think we should be sensitive to

>the fact that America (and our American colleagues) have just undergone a

>terrible tragedy. They're still searching for their dead for goodness sake!

>

>Let's have some compassion for their suffering!!

>

 

While your compassion is admirable, Don is correct in his assessment of US

involvement in this tragedy. National Public Radio is the only news source

that is somewhat unbiased in its broadcasts. It is frustrating to watch the

owned media portray the picture it is. Most Americans are eating up this

portrayal eagerly, and feel justified with their flag-waving patriotism.

Being an American is often difficult in moments such as this. I feel

ashamed of the media and how fellow Americans dont seem to have the

intelligence to question what is being spoon fed to them.

I have friends who are mourning their dead.... my best friend has a friend

in NY who's husband never came home from work on Tuesday.

I feel torn between feeling extreme grief and then extreme anger. And I

feel fear for even writing this, not knowing who may be reading it and how

I may be seen as a possible antagonist.

I could go off on a political tangent, but I will restrain myself.

 

we are not innocent in this tradegy.

 

Take care

Marcia

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Wendy

i wholeheartedly agree with you

in peace

stavavali

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Scott,

 

 

Heart felt words.... it must extremely frustrating for all those so close to

the disaster.

 

Here in Australia we are as shaken as most of the world....

 

But the thing I keep coming back to is 'KARMA.' The big word... each action

attracts an equally opposite action from nature. What actions has the

Western world and America committed to attract such action. Nature is taking

her steady course using her resources (people and planet) to balance and

evolve.

 

Let's be "very careful" about our actions and how we contribute to the

consciousness of resolving this potentially disasterous conflict. Our planet

is very fragile at the moment and she like all us needs plenty of care and

mothering.

 

Take care friend

 

 

Brad Dunn

 

-

Scott MacDonald <scottmd1

<gjlist>

Sunday, September 16, 2001 12:08 PM

RE: [gjlist] What is...what has begun..and what will be...

 

 

> You talk about 100 years of injustice the West has done to the

> middle-east...and while I have no knowledge about how many years (100 or

> more or less)...I agree with the statement. I believe the West has used

the

> middle-east for it's own selfish needs at times...and I also believe the

> West has done things to help....

>

> A couple of things...I find it interesting that your willing to put so

much

> blame and possible hatred for the West with no talk about the injustice

the

> middle-east has brought upon itself since pre-biblical days.

>

> Accountability is for all of us to take...the entire world, the West

> included has created this mess....and it will take all of us to get

> out...starting with everyone taking accountability for their own personal

> hatred....even of the so called evil West.

>

> While I think it would be great for the Governments and the Powers of the

> world to give everyone help....I am not sure how that solves the "root"

> issues you talk about finding.

>

> You said "A contented people will not breed terrorists." I am curious

where

> these contented people are now? The West? Do you remember Tim McViegh?

He

> lived in a Country that I would suppose had all the help of the West

> available to him

>

> I also found it interesting that you only spoke of money...the money given

> to the leaders of other countries that they put in Swiss bank accounts and

> do as they please for selfish reasons....So, given that statement, are you

> talking about giving money to the world population to make them content?

Is

> that what will make Bin Laden (assuming he is responsible) give up his

days

> of killing innocents and turn him into a peace loving man? Would have

> giving everyone in the world a million dollars prevented the horror of

> 9-11-01?

>

> What makes a people contented? Money? A house? Running water? Nice

cars?

> Food? A place of worship? If a human being has everything it takes to

make

> him content today...will it be enough to make him content tomorrow? If

not,

> who gives them the contentedness day after day after day?

>

> So, I am curious about two things...what makes a people content? What

> should be "gifted" to the entire world to make us all content? Second,

what

> makes you think anyone wants to be content...and how does that stop hate

and

> madness?

>

> Lastly, about the US President. One thing that is so amazing about this

> country (the US) is our electoral process. Rules...processes...about

> everything...exists...and they are followed. And, if you don't like the

> process, you are free to publicly say anything you want about it...Bush

was

> not the first US President to loose the popular vote but win the Electoral

> College vote (several others in time past)....I am not really sure what

> press covered world wide...but...I do agree that after Bush "won"....his

> mandate was questioned...two things have followed since then....

>

> 1. All the ballots in Florida have since been re-counted (paid for by

major

> news organizations that have been proven to be more liberal then

> conservative)....and guess what, when all the ballots were

> re-counted...using the most liberal standards (meaning if the chad was

> pregnant, hanging or whatever, it was counted for that person)...and Bush

> still won. I'll say that again. After all the votes were counted again

> (after Bush had taken office mind you)...it showed Bush won....since then,

> their has been no real questioning of him being in the office

> 2. The process is the process that we use in this Country....this is not a

> Democracy...never has been, and hopefully will never be...the popular

votes

> never wins just because it is the popular vote. We are a representative

> republic. Other countries elect by popular vote....or their own unique

> way...I respect their chosen way of electing officials as much as our's

> 3. Speaking as an American...we stand behind our President...regardless of

> our likes for him. Especially in times like this. In New York yesterday

> Bush was greeted by cheering New Yorkers...who voted overwhelmingly for

> Gore...It does not matter who he is...what party he leads...he is our

> president...and has a full mandate from an overwhelming majority of

> Americans...so while it might be beneficial to your point to talk about

the

> questionable mandate of Bush...the Truth that he won after all the votes

> were counted, and in office (documented in every major American

> Newspaper)...and the fact that as of then, and especially today, Bush has

> the mandate of the country...may, or may not want to enter into your

> arguments.

>

> As a US citizen, my heart is comforted when I see the display of love the

> world has shown. The majority of the world has shown more American

> Patriotism then most US citizens displayed less then a year ago.

>

> As much as many try to make this a West, or a US attack...this is an

attack

> on Freedom around the world. It is an attack on peace loving people

> everywhere. It could have just as easily been Germany, or Japan, or

France,

> England etc....this could have been anywhere...anyone....anyone of us

could

> have been killed last Tuesday....

>

> Can the world...can anyone, can you be content in a world where everyone

has

> money and so much senseless killing is allowed to happen with no

punishment

> brought to those doing the killing?

>

>

> Scott MacDonald

> scottmd1

> 248.212.7588

>

>

> subra [subra]

> Saturday, September 15, 2001 4:55 PM

> gjlist

> Re: [gjlist] What is...what has begun..and what will be...

>

> Wendy Vasicek wrote:

> > Dear Don and list,

> >

> > My apologies for being so vociferous but, in light of this anti-US

> sentiment

> > that's springing up, I'd like to point out that, although the attack

was

> > aimed at the powers that be, it was innocent American citizens that

paid

> the

> > price. ...

> > Much has been said about the demonic Western World deserving what it

gets.

> > Well, in my opinion, sentiments such as these are demonic and can only

> lead

> > to more suffering and hatred. To condone such dreadful acts of

terrorism

> is

> > sinful...there can be no justification for taking innocent lives.

>

>

> Dear Wendy,

>

> Firstly it is NOT anti-US sentiment that seems to be growing: where? at

> present

> in Europe almost every city has expressed its solidarity with the US, all

> sorts

> of planned performances have been cancelled without worrying about the

costs

> and

> losses, everywhere people are meeting in churches and squares, lighting

> candles,

> laying wreaths, singing the US anthem, observing silence, the trains and

> transport stopped and people on the streets stood still and prayed. At

least

> on

> TV i saw many, many breaking out in tears as I did when I heard/saw the

news

> firsz!

>

> But people like me - and there are many "experts" from various disciplines

> in

> Germany who think like me - are only trying to find the CAUSE for this

> tremendous hate, which led to this tremendous tragedy. we are not callous

> if we

> see - or think we see - the cause. Almost 100 years of injustice has been

> done

> to the people of the Middle-East by Western nations. And it is no

surprise

> if

> this sort of reaction comes now.

>

> People like me are NOT SMUGLY "telling" the US that it is getting what it

> deserves. NO! To start with, we are separating the US citizens from their

> government(s). What we mean is: Look what your policies have brought! To

> help

> the interests of a few, you are sowing the seeds of hate - AND EXPOSING

YOUR

> PEOPLE AND THE PEOPLE IN OUR COUNTRIES TO TERROR AND DESTRUCTION!

>

> Only the American people can compel their government to take a sane and

> humane

> step: don´t waste the money on retaliation, but give massive help to the

> people

> in the MiddleEast - not to the dictators but directly to the people there.

A

> contented people will not breed terrorists. The people there don´t have

even

> a

> decent WC! For years the germans were pictured as ENEMY. But the hearts

of

> the

> Germans was won when the GIs threw out chocolates, when the CARE packets

> arrived, when the Marshall aid was given. I once spoke of sama, dhana,

> bedha,

> dhanda. Djhana has never been properly tried. Money was given to regimes,

> which

> pocketed the money, transferred it to Switzerland and spent nothing for

the

> people - only to buy oil rights!

>

> We, the silent majority, are responsible because we are silent! In the 60s

> the

> world movement of youth finally put an end to the stupid VietNam war. We

> cannot

> afford to be silent and good. We elect our governments every few years -

and

> this time in the Us a president rules, whose mandate was questioned. after

> that

> we have no say. There is only one true democracy in the world:

switzerland.

> Every important decision is decided by referundum.

>

> Sentiment has to go hand in hand with sense.

>

> regards

> Mani

>

>

>

> gjlist-

>

>

>

> Your use of is subject to

>

>

>

>

> gjlist-

>

>

>

> Your use of is subject to

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Brad,

You mentioned:

 

" Let's be "very careful" about our actions and how we contribute to the

consciousness of resolving this potentially disastrous conflict. Our planet

is very fragile at the moment and she like all us needs plenty of care and

mothering."

 

Unfortunately, it seems as though the mass consciousness here in the US is

only ready to handle one step at a time.

And to truly own the concept of Karma here is something we can all simply

pray for right now!

 

Theresa

 

 

 

 

 

bradley dunn [braddunn]

Sunday, September 16, 2001 6:15 AM

gjlist

Re: [gjlist] What is...what has begun..and what will be...

 

Scott,

 

 

Heart felt words.... it must extremely frustrating for all those so close to

the disaster.

 

Here in Australia we are as shaken as most of the world....

 

But the thing I keep coming back to is 'KARMA.' The big word... each action

attracts an equally opposite action from nature. What actions has the

Western world and America committed to attract such action. Nature is taking

her steady course using her resources (people and planet) to balance and

evolve.

 

Let's be "very careful" about our actions and how we contribute to the

consciousness of resolving this potentially disasterous conflict. Our planet

is very fragile at the moment and she like all us needs plenty of care and

mothering.

 

Take care friend

 

 

Brad Dunn

 

-

Scott MacDonald <scottmd1

<gjlist>

Sunday, September 16, 2001 12:08 PM

RE: [gjlist] What is...what has begun..and what will be...

 

 

> You talk about 100 years of injustice the West has done to the

> middle-east...and while I have no knowledge about how many years (100 or

> more or less)...I agree with the statement. I believe the West has used

the

> middle-east for it's own selfish needs at times...and I also believe the

> West has done things to help....

>

> A couple of things...I find it interesting that your willing to put so

much

> blame and possible hatred for the West with no talk about the injustice

the

> middle-east has brought upon itself since pre-biblical days.

>

> Accountability is for all of us to take...the entire world, the West

> included has created this mess....and it will take all of us to get

> out...starting with everyone taking accountability for their own personal

> hatred....even of the so called evil West.

>

> While I think it would be great for the Governments and the Powers of the

> world to give everyone help....I am not sure how that solves the "root"

> issues you talk about finding.

>

> You said "A contented people will not breed terrorists." I am curious

where

> these contented people are now? The West? Do you remember Tim McViegh?

He

> lived in a Country that I would suppose had all the help of the West

> available to him

>

> I also found it interesting that you only spoke of money...the money given

> to the leaders of other countries that they put in Swiss bank accounts and

> do as they please for selfish reasons....So, given that statement, are you

> talking about giving money to the world population to make them content?

Is

> that what will make Bin Laden (assuming he is responsible) give up his

days

> of killing innocents and turn him into a peace loving man? Would have

> giving everyone in the world a million dollars prevented the horror of

> 9-11-01?

>

> What makes a people contented? Money? A house? Running water? Nice

cars?

> Food? A place of worship? If a human being has everything it takes to

make

> him content today...will it be enough to make him content tomorrow? If

not,

> who gives them the contentedness day after day after day?

>

> So, I am curious about two things...what makes a people content? What

> should be "gifted" to the entire world to make us all content? Second,

what

> makes you think anyone wants to be content...and how does that stop hate

and

> madness?

>

> Lastly, about the US President. One thing that is so amazing about this

> country (the US) is our electoral process. Rules...processes...about

> everything...exists...and they are followed. And, if you don't like the

> process, you are free to publicly say anything you want about it...Bush

was

> not the first US President to loose the popular vote but win the Electoral

> College vote (several others in time past)....I am not really sure what

> press covered world wide...but...I do agree that after Bush "won"....his

> mandate was questioned...two things have followed since then....

>

> 1. All the ballots in Florida have since been re-counted (paid for by

major

> news organizations that have been proven to be more liberal then

> conservative)....and guess what, when all the ballots were

> re-counted...using the most liberal standards (meaning if the chad was

> pregnant, hanging or whatever, it was counted for that person)...and Bush

> still won. I'll say that again. After all the votes were counted again

> (after Bush had taken office mind you)...it showed Bush won....since then,

> their has been no real questioning of him being in the office

> 2. The process is the process that we use in this Country....this is not a

> Democracy...never has been, and hopefully will never be...the popular

votes

> never wins just because it is the popular vote. We are a representative

> republic. Other countries elect by popular vote....or their own unique

> way...I respect their chosen way of electing officials as much as our's

> 3. Speaking as an American...we stand behind our President...regardless of

> our likes for him. Especially in times like this. In New York yesterday

> Bush was greeted by cheering New Yorkers...who voted overwhelmingly for

> Gore...It does not matter who he is...what party he leads...he is our

> president...and has a full mandate from an overwhelming majority of

> Americans...so while it might be beneficial to your point to talk about

the

> questionable mandate of Bush...the Truth that he won after all the votes

> were counted, and in office (documented in every major American

> Newspaper)...and the fact that as of then, and especially today, Bush has

> the mandate of the country...may, or may not want to enter into your

> arguments.

>

> As a US citizen, my heart is comforted when I see the display of love the

> world has shown. The majority of the world has shown more American

> Patriotism then most US citizens displayed less then a year ago.

>

> As much as many try to make this a West, or a US attack...this is an

attack

> on Freedom around the world. It is an attack on peace loving people

> everywhere. It could have just as easily been Germany, or Japan, or

France,

> England etc....this could have been anywhere...anyone....anyone of us

could

> have been killed last Tuesday....

>

> Can the world...can anyone, can you be content in a world where everyone

has

> money and so much senseless killing is allowed to happen with no

punishment

> brought to those doing the killing?

>

>

> Scott MacDonald

> scottmd1

> 248.212.7588

>

>

> subra [subra]

> Saturday, September 15, 2001 4:55 PM

> gjlist

> Re: [gjlist] What is...what has begun..and what will be...

>

> Wendy Vasicek wrote:

> > Dear Don and list,

> >

> > My apologies for being so vociferous but, in light of this anti-US

> sentiment

> > that's springing up, I'd like to point out that, although the attack

was

> > aimed at the powers that be, it was innocent American citizens that

paid

> the

> > price. ...

> > Much has been said about the demonic Western World deserving what it

gets.

> > Well, in my opinion, sentiments such as these are demonic and can only

> lead

> > to more suffering and hatred. To condone such dreadful acts of

terrorism

> is

> > sinful...there can be no justification for taking innocent lives.

>

>

> Dear Wendy,

>

> Firstly it is NOT anti-US sentiment that seems to be growing: where? at

> present

> in Europe almost every city has expressed its solidarity with the US, all

> sorts

> of planned performances have been cancelled without worrying about the

costs

> and

> losses, everywhere people are meeting in churches and squares, lighting

> candles,

> laying wreaths, singing the US anthem, observing silence, the trains and

> transport stopped and people on the streets stood still and prayed. At

least

> on

> TV i saw many, many breaking out in tears as I did when I heard/saw the

news

> firsz!

>

> But people like me - and there are many "experts" from various disciplines

> in

> Germany who think like me - are only trying to find the CAUSE for this

> tremendous hate, which led to this tremendous tragedy. we are not callous

> if we

> see - or think we see - the cause. Almost 100 years of injustice has been

> done

> to the people of the Middle-East by Western nations. And it is no

surprise

> if

> this sort of reaction comes now.

>

> People like me are NOT SMUGLY "telling" the US that it is getting what it

> deserves. NO! To start with, we are separating the US citizens from their

> government(s). What we mean is: Look what your policies have brought! To

> help

> the interests of a few, you are sowing the seeds of hate - AND EXPOSING

YOUR

> PEOPLE AND THE PEOPLE IN OUR COUNTRIES TO TERROR AND DESTRUCTION!

>

> Only the American people can compel their government to take a sane and

> humane

> step: don´t waste the money on retaliation, but give massive help to the

> people

> in the MiddleEast - not to the dictators but directly to the people there.

A

> contented people will not breed terrorists. The people there don´t have

even

> a

> decent WC! For years the germans were pictured as ENEMY. But the hearts

of

> the

> Germans was won when the GIs threw out chocolates, when the CARE packets

> arrived, when the Marshall aid was given. I once spoke of sama, dhana,

> bedha,

> dhanda. Djhana has never been properly tried. Money was given to regimes,

> which

> pocketed the money, transferred it to Switzerland and spent nothing for

the

> people - only to buy oil rights!

>

> We, the silent majority, are responsible because we are silent! In the 60s

> the

> world movement of youth finally put an end to the stupid VietNam war. We

> cannot

> afford to be silent and good. We elect our governments every few years -

and

> this time in the Us a president rules, whose mandate was questioned. after

> that

> we have no say. There is only one true democracy in the world:

switzerland.

> Every important decision is decided by referundum.

>

> Sentiment has to go hand in hand with sense.

>

> regards

> Mani

>

>

>

> gjlist-

>

>

>

> Your use of is subject to

>

>

>

>

> gjlist-

>

>

>

> Your use of is subject to

>

>

 

 

 

gjlist-

 

 

 

Your use of is subject to

[Guest guest]

Mani:

 

Just want you to know that I appreciate your views here. Feeling sympathy

and pity for the victims of this awful attack isn't at all incompatible

with criticism of US foreign policy. The old adage of "it take two to

tango" underscores the inherent interdependence of antagonistic parties.

This realization in no way presumes judgement of right and wrong, just the

nature of conflict.

 

Chris

 

 

 

, and At 10:55 PM 9/15/01 +0200, you wrote:

>Wendy Vasicek wrote:

>> Dear Don and list,

>>

>> My apologies for being so vociferous but, in light of this anti-US

sentiment

>> that's springing up, I'd like to point out that, although the attack was

>> aimed at the powers that be, it was innocent American citizens that

paid the

>> price. ...

>> Much has been said about the demonic Western World deserving what it gets.

>> Well, in my opinion, sentiments such as these are demonic and can only

lead

>> to more suffering and hatred. To condone such dreadful acts of

terrorism is

>> sinful...there can be no justification for taking innocent lives.

>

>

>Dear Wendy,

>

>Firstly it is NOT anti-US sentiment that seems to be growing: where? at

present

>in Europe almost every city has expressed its solidarity with the US, all

sorts

>of planned performances have been cancelled without worrying about the

costs and

>losses, everywhere people are meeting in churches and squares, lighting

candles,

>laying wreaths, singing the US anthem, observing silence, the trains and

>transport stopped and people on the streets stood still and prayed. At

least on

>TV i saw many, many breaking out in tears as I did when I heard/saw the news

>firsz!

>

>But people like me - and there are many "experts" from various disciplines

in

>Germany who think like me - are only trying to find the CAUSE for this

>tremendous hate, which led to this tremendous tragedy. we are not callous

if we

>see - or think we see - the cause. Almost 100 years of injustice has been

done

>to the people of the Middle-East by Western nations. And it is no

surprise if

>this sort of reaction comes now.

>

>People like me are NOT SMUGLY "telling" the US that it is getting what it

>deserves. NO! To start with, we are separating the US citizens from their

>government(s). What we mean is: Look what your policies have brought! To

help

>the interests of a few, you are sowing the seeds of hate - AND EXPOSING YOUR

>PEOPLE AND THE PEOPLE IN OUR COUNTRIES TO TERROR AND DESTRUCTION!

>

>Only the American people can compel their government to take a sane and

humane

>step: don´t waste the money on retaliation, but give massive help to the

people

>in the MiddleEast - not to the dictators but directly to the people there. A

>contented people will not breed terrorists. The people there don´t have

even a

>decent WC! For years the germans were pictured as ENEMY. But the hearts

of the

>Germans was won when the GIs threw out chocolates, when the CARE packets

>arrived, when the Marshall aid was given. I once spoke of sama, dhana,

bedha,

>dhanda. Djhana has never been properly tried. Money was given to regimes,

which

>pocketed the money, transferred it to Switzerland and spent nothing for the

>people - only to buy oil rights!

>

>We, the silent majority, are responsible because we are silent! In the 60s

the

>world movement of youth finally put an end to the stupid VietNam war. We

cannot

>afford to be silent and good. We elect our governments every few years - and

>this time in the Us a president rules, whose mandate was questioned. after

that

>we have no say. There is only one true democracy in the world: switzerland.

>Every important decision is decided by referundum.

>

>Sentiment has to go hand in hand with sense.

>

>regards

>Mani

>

>

>

>gjlist-

>

>

>

>Your use of is subject to

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Don:

 

You hit the target !!!!.. watch out!, very soon will be an act of

terrorism to pass information such as this one: but lets live only

defending the truth even if we have to pay with our own blood.

 

Who are really responsible...search Bilderberg Oligarchy - Kissinger

et.al

http://www.jpradio.com/Archive/2001/09/11/asx/010911swi.asx

WTC DESIGNED FOR 707 HIT -say top engineers!!!

Posted By: PsyOpNews

Tuesday, 11 September 2001, 11:23 p.m.

TWO WTC DESIGNERS SAY BUILDING DESIGNED FOR PLANE IMPACT

http://www.rumormillnews.net/cgi-bin/config.pl?read=11361

Towers' collapse shocks engineers

"I designed it for a (Boeing)707 to hit it." !!!

---said Lee Robertson, the WTC project's structural engineer,

addressing a conference in Frankfurt, Germany, LAST WEEK, on problem

of terrorism on high-rises, according to Chicago engineer Joseph

Burns to the Chicago Tribune.

ALSO:

"It was designed around that eventuality [of a plane] to survive this

kind of impact" ---Aaron Swirski, one of the architects of the World

Trade Center, talks exclusively to Jerusalem Post Radio on the World

Trade Center collapse after the double attack.

http://www.jpradio.com/Archive/2001/09/11/asx/010911swi.asx

Tuesday, 11 September 2001 19:50 (ET)

DETROIT, Sept. 11 (UPI) -- A lead engineer who worked on New York's

World Trade Center Towers expressed shock Tuesday that the 110-story

landmarks in Lower Manhattan collapsed after each tower was struck by

a hijacked passenger jetliner.

Lee Robertson, the project's structural engineer, addressed the

problem of terrorism on high-rises at a conference in Frankfurt,

Germany, last week, Chicago engineer Joseph Burns told the Chicago

Tribune.

Burns said Robertson told the conference, "I designed it for a

(Boeing)707 to hit it."

"Fire melts steel," Burns told the Tribune, speculating that the

impact from the planes had damaged sprinkler systems in both

towers. "You never know in an explosion like that whether they get

cut off," Burns said. Because of the buildings' heights, engineers

used tubular construction of tightly spaced steel columns. The floor

trusses were built across to this central core.

Copyright 2001 by United Press International.

All rights reserved.

Reason is the enemy of terror.

By Fintan Dunne, co-Editor

TWO WTC DESIGNERS SAY BUILDING DESIGNED FOR PLANE IMPACT

Rumor Mill News Read Only Forum

interview with WTC architect

Posted By: pan

Tuesday, 11 September 2001, 5:35 p.m.

Aaron Swirski, one of the architects of the World Trade Center, talks

exclusively to Jerusalem Post Radio on the World Trade Center

collapse after the double attack.

You will need Windows Media Player

Pan's comments: The architect himself is puzzled at the nature of the

building's collapse. He says they designed the towers to withstand

something like a plane flying into the side.

It would be great to get a transcription of this interview.

http://www.jpradio.com/Archive/2001/09/11/asx/010911swi.asx

 

 

there is much more heavy stuff,

 

TRUST ONLY GOD ,

 

best of wishes

 

Hare Krishna

 

Chaitanya S. das

 

 

 

 

 

 

gjlist, "Don" <vedicreadings@t...> wrote:

> Yes it was Wendy,

> and I do understand the shock and confusion of those innocent

people that

> this has affected, it is not to them that my finger points...it is

the same

> greedy muti-nationals you mention, and they are not all American,

in fact

> many are European, shadowy characters that grace the Trilateral

Commission,

> the Builderburgers, Committee of 300, etc etc...they and other

elite are

> slowly pulling the carpet out from all of us and we better soon

wake up to

> it... the few can't really control the many without their consent,

that is

> why they manufacture it as Noam Chomsky so eloquently put it.

> I knew with out a doubt I stood a good possibility that I would be

> misunderstood, but that goes with the territory... I love people

for who

> they as individuals, country of birth has nothing to do with it, it

is the

> integrity and character that has meaning to me... And I hate

adharmic

> people that will use people with total disregard for their well

being as

> long as it serves their ends......

> People are waking up to the game and sometimes like wag the dog our

> attention is misdirected, as in any good magick, so don't take you

eye of

> the one who stand to gain from this....

> Respectfully

> Don

>

> -

> "Wendy Vasicek" <wenvas@d...>

> <gjlist>

> Saturday, September 15, 2001 8:11 AM

> Re: [gjlist] What is...what has begun..and what will be...

>

>

> > Wow!!

> >

> > That's really spitting some chips Don. I must say your post has

taken me

> by surprise......

> >

> > Whilst I agree with you that Cancer rising (Bin Laden) is a

possibility, I

> can't agree with the rest of your post. I think we should be

sensitive to

> the fact that America (and our American colleagues) have just

undergone a

> terrible tragedy. They're still searching for their dead for

goodness sake!

> >

> > Let's have some compassion for their suffering!!

> >

> > We all have our own political views, myself

included...globalisation is

> having an enormously detrimental effect on ordinary Australians who

watch

> helplessly as their whole economic structure is taken over by

> multi-nationals. Even such things as Dairy farms and crop farms

have fallen

> prey to foreign ownership. Ordinary Australians have become

disenfranchised.

> We now have a new class of people here called "the working

poor"........the

> basic wage is below the poverty line and the most disadvantaged

(pensioners

> and unemployed) in our society, live a life of absolute poverty.

> >

> > The anger and frustration grows here as we watch our Country get

sold out

> from under us. This is a dreadful state of affairs! For many, the

hope for a

> better life slips further and further away as the rich get richer

and

> richer.

> >

> > But this is not (singularly) due to US influence. Some of the

major

> players in this great injustice are Australians. The media tycoon

Rupert

> Murdoch is one I can name. It's a dreadful thing that's happened to

the

> people of the World. We now have what is known as "Corporate

politics"...big

> business runs the World today and our politicians are their puppets.

> >

> > What to do? It's a dreadful situation the World is in today!

> >

> > Rgds, Wendy

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > gjlist-

> >

> >

> >

> > Your use of is subject to

 

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Hello brother,

I know I hit the target as did the genius of the Divine law of Karma....it

is the slow grinding of the wheels of karma. I also want to acknowledge the

profound, and truthful posting of our lists creator Das Goravani.... a very

thoughtful and meaningful addition to the list of respected members for

serious consideration.....

 

Brother I only want to speak the truth, as My limited perception will allow

me in this time and place. We are so much acceptable to the manipulations

of powerful offices: that we have no idea even exist, and we are too often

swept into ventures that are drenched in blood and long range affects, we

forget the impact of the actions we have taken. Since the Revolution of

Napoleon, when the spy network of the Rothschild's put them into the

position of control, not only over the markets of the London exchange, but

soon enabled them the power to print money under the guise of the Bank of

England, all future generations have been more or less under the unfolding

of their intention.

They eventually moved their agenda forward through wealth and the control

they exercised, usurping political intention of the peoples good, and served

instead the alliances of those involved in Mystery schools, such as the

Masons, Rosicrucian's, etc.... to have a One world Government....... or New

World Order...or whatever severs their purpose.... People however well

intentioned have been slaughtered for their ends unwittingly.

When are the less fortunate going to wake up to the injustice, that uses

them for the completion of their objectives. That they can't even

comprehend the spirit of the ones that have warped there view of the Real.

 

If one challenges this as a conspiracy theory, I challenge them that they

are on the side of your undoing, this is not a conspiracy but an insidious

assault to your integrity and humanity.

Unfortunately I know too much for my own good, as they say, and I have no

doubt they will kill me in their own good time, but as in the fashion of

Gandhi, Malcolm X, and other seekers of truth, I may be silenced but the

truth will never die.

We need to take a good look at the truth and our personal position in

regards to it, and see where it is we want to align ourselves.....

I will gladly die for My truth, and respect those that will do the same.

Why die in the name of a truth that severs the interests of another??

This is a time when the chonchshells are blowing, and we have to decide

where our personal blessing are going to be given...

Love to all,

Don

 

 

 

-

<joshnitai

<gjlist>

Sunday, September 16, 2001 11:37 AM

[gjlist] Re: What is...what has begun..and what will be...

 

 

>

> Dear Don:

>

> You hit the target !!!!.. watch out!, very soon will be an act of

> terrorism to pass information such as this one: but lets live only

> defending the truth even if we have to pay with our own blood.

>

> Who are really responsible...search Bilderberg Oligarchy - Kissinger

> et.al

> http://www.jpradio.com/Archive/2001/09/11/asx/010911swi.asx

> WTC DESIGNED FOR 707 HIT -say top engineers!!!

> Posted By: PsyOpNews

> Tuesday, 11 September 2001, 11:23 p.m.

> TWO WTC DESIGNERS SAY BUILDING DESIGNED FOR PLANE IMPACT

> http://www.rumormillnews.net/cgi-bin/config.pl?read=11361

> Towers' collapse shocks engineers

> "I designed it for a (Boeing)707 to hit it." !!!

> ---said Lee Robertson, the WTC project's structural engineer,

> addressing a conference in Frankfurt, Germany, LAST WEEK, on problem

> of terrorism on high-rises, according to Chicago engineer Joseph

> Burns to the Chicago Tribune.

> ALSO:

> "It was designed around that eventuality [of a plane] to survive this

> kind of impact" ---Aaron Swirski, one of the architects of the World

> Trade Center, talks exclusively to Jerusalem Post Radio on the World

> Trade Center collapse after the double attack.

> http://www.jpradio.com/Archive/2001/09/11/asx/010911swi.asx

> Tuesday, 11 September 2001 19:50 (ET)

> DETROIT, Sept. 11 (UPI) -- A lead engineer who worked on New York's

> World Trade Center Towers expressed shock Tuesday that the 110-story

> landmarks in Lower Manhattan collapsed after each tower was struck by

> a hijacked passenger jetliner.

> Lee Robertson, the project's structural engineer, addressed the

> problem of terrorism on high-rises at a conference in Frankfurt,

> Germany, last week, Chicago engineer Joseph Burns told the Chicago

> Tribune.

> Burns said Robertson told the conference, "I designed it for a

> (Boeing)707 to hit it."

> "Fire melts steel," Burns told the Tribune, speculating that the

> impact from the planes had damaged sprinkler systems in both

> towers. "You never know in an explosion like that whether they get

> cut off," Burns said. Because of the buildings' heights, engineers

> used tubular construction of tightly spaced steel columns. The floor

> trusses were built across to this central core.

> Copyright 2001 by United Press International.

> All rights reserved.

> Reason is the enemy of terror.

> By Fintan Dunne, co-Editor

> TWO WTC DESIGNERS SAY BUILDING DESIGNED FOR PLANE IMPACT

> Rumor Mill News Read Only Forum

> interview with WTC architect

> Posted By: pan

> Tuesday, 11 September 2001, 5:35 p.m.

> Aaron Swirski, one of the architects of the World Trade Center, talks

> exclusively to Jerusalem Post Radio on the World Trade Center

> collapse after the double attack.

> You will need Windows Media Player

> Pan's comments: The architect himself is puzzled at the nature of the

> building's collapse. He says they designed the towers to withstand

> something like a plane flying into the side.

> It would be great to get a transcription of this interview.

> http://www.jpradio.com/Archive/2001/09/11/asx/010911swi.asx

>

>

> there is much more heavy stuff,

>

> TRUST ONLY GOD ,

>

> best of wishes

>

> Hare Krishna

>

> Chaitanya S. das

gjlist, "Don" <vedicreadings@t...> wrote:

> > Yes it was Wendy,

> > and I do understand the shock and confusion of those innocent

> people that

> > this has affected, it is not to them that my finger points...it is

> the same

> > greedy muti-nationals you mention, and they are not all American,

> in fact

> > many are European, shadowy characters that grace the Trilateral

> Commission,

> > the Builderburgers, Committee of 300, etc etc...they and other

> elite are

> > slowly pulling the carpet out from all of us and we better soon

> wake up to

> > it... the few can't really control the many without their consent,

> that is

> > why they manufacture it as Noam Chomsky so eloquently put it.

> > I knew with out a doubt I stood a good possibility that I would be

> > misunderstood, but that goes with the territory... I love people

> for who

> > they as individuals, country of birth has nothing to do with it, it

> is the

> > integrity and character that has meaning to me... And I hate

> adharmic

> > people that will use people with total disregard for their well

> being as

> > long as it serves their ends......

> > People are waking up to the game and sometimes like wag the dog our

> > attention is misdirected, as in any good magick, so don't take you

> eye of

> > the one who stand to gain from this....

> > Respectfully

> > Don

> >

> > -

> > "Wendy Vasicek" <wenvas@d...>

> > <gjlist>

> > Saturday, September 15, 2001 8:11 AM

> > Re: [gjlist] What is...what has begun..and what will be...

> >

> >

> > > Wow!!

> > >

> > > That's really spitting some chips Don. I must say your post has

> taken me

> > by surprise......

> > >

> > > Whilst I agree with you that Cancer rising (Bin Laden) is a

> possibility, I

> > can't agree with the rest of your post. I think we should be

> sensitive to

> > the fact that America (and our American colleagues) have just

> undergone a

> > terrible tragedy. They're still searching for their dead for

> goodness sake!

> > >

> > > Let's have some compassion for their suffering!!

> > >

> > > We all have our own political views, myself

> included...globalisation is

> > having an enormously detrimental effect on ordinary Australians who

> watch

> > helplessly as their whole economic structure is taken over by

> > multi-nationals. Even such things as Dairy farms and crop farms

> have fallen

> > prey to foreign ownership. Ordinary Australians have become

> disenfranchised.

> > We now have a new class of people here called "the working

> poor"........the

> > basic wage is below the poverty line and the most disadvantaged

> (pensioners

> > and unemployed) in our society, live a life of absolute poverty.

> > >

> > > The anger and frustration grows here as we watch our Country get

> sold out

> > from under us. This is a dreadful state of affairs! For many, the

> hope for a

> > better life slips further and further away as the rich get richer

> and

> > richer.

> > >

> > > But this is not (singularly) due to US influence. Some of the

> major

> > players in this great injustice are Australians. The media tycoon

> Rupert

> > Murdoch is one I can name. It's a dreadful thing that's happened to

> the

> > people of the World. We now have what is known as "Corporate

> politics"...big

> > business runs the World today and our politicians are their puppets.

> > >

> > > What to do? It's a dreadful situation the World is in today!

> > >

> > > Rgds, Wendy

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > gjlist-

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Your use of is subject to

>

> > >

> > >

> > >

>

>

>

> gjlist-

>

>

>

> Your use of is subject to

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

-

"Don" <vedicreadings

<gjlist>

Sunday, September 16, 2001 4:55 PM

Re: [gjlist] Re: What is...what has begun..and what will be...

 

 

> Hello brother,

> I know I hit the target as did the genius of the Divine law of Karma....it

> is the slow grinding of the wheels of karma. I also want to acknowledge

the

> profound, and truthful posting of our lists creator Das Goravani.... a

very

> thoughtful and meaningful addition to the list of respected members for

> serious consideration.....

>

> Brother I only want to speak the truth, as My limited perception will

allow

> me in this time and place. We are so much acceptable to the manipulations

> of powerful offices: that we have no idea even exist, and we are too often

> swept into ventures that are drenched in blood and long range affects, we

> forget the impact of the actions we have taken. Since the Revolution of

> Napoleon, when the spy network of the Rothschild's put them into the

> position of control, not only over the markets of the London exchange, but

> soon enabled them the power to print money under the guise of the Bank of

> England, all future generations have been more or less under the unfolding

> of their intention.

> They eventually moved their agenda forward through wealth and the

control

> they exercised, usurping political intention of the peoples good, and

served

> instead the alliances of those involved in Mystery schools, such as the

> Masons, Rosicrucian's, etc.... to have a One world Government....... or

New

> World Order...or whatever severs their purpose.... People however well

> intentioned have been slaughtered for their ends unwittingly.

> When are the less fortunate going to wake up to the injustice, that uses

> them for the completion of their objectives. That they can't even

> comprehend the spirit of the ones that have warped there view of the Real.

>

> If one challenges this as a conspiracy theory, I challenge them that they

> are on the side of your undoing, this is not a conspiracy but an

insidious

> assault to your integrity and humanity.

> Unfortunately I know too much for my own good, as they say, and I have no

> doubt they will kill me in their own good time, but as in the fashion of

> Gandhi, Malcolm X, and other seekers of truth, I may be silenced but the

> truth will never die.

> We need to take a good look at the truth and our personal position in

> regards to it, and see where it is we want to align ourselves.....

> I will gladly die for My truth, and respect those that will do the same.

> Why die in the name of a truth that severs the interests of another??

> This is a time when the chonchshells are blowing, and we have to decide

> where our personal blessing are going to be given...

> Love to all,

> Don

>

>

>

> -

> <joshnitai

> <gjlist>

> Sunday, September 16, 2001 11:37 AM

> [gjlist] Re: What is...what has begun..and what will be...

>

>

> >

> > Dear Don:

> >

> > You hit the target !!!!.. watch out!, very soon will be an act of

> > terrorism to pass information such as this one: but lets live only

> > defending the truth even if we have to pay with our own blood.

> >

> > Who are really responsible...search Bilderberg Oligarchy - Kissinger

> > et.al

> > http://www.jpradio.com/Archive/2001/09/11/asx/010911swi.asx

> > WTC DESIGNED FOR 707 HIT -say top engineers!!!

> > Posted By: PsyOpNews

> > Tuesday, 11 September 2001, 11:23 p.m.

> > TWO WTC DESIGNERS SAY BUILDING DESIGNED FOR PLANE IMPACT

> > http://www.rumormillnews.net/cgi-bin/config.pl?read=11361

> > Towers' collapse shocks engineers

> > "I designed it for a (Boeing)707 to hit it." !!!

> > ---said Lee Robertson, the WTC project's structural engineer,

> > addressing a conference in Frankfurt, Germany, LAST WEEK, on problem

> > of terrorism on high-rises, according to Chicago engineer Joseph

> > Burns to the Chicago Tribune.

> > ALSO:

> > "It was designed around that eventuality [of a plane] to survive this

> > kind of impact" ---Aaron Swirski, one of the architects of the World

> > Trade Center, talks exclusively to Jerusalem Post Radio on the World

> > Trade Center collapse after the double attack.

> > http://www.jpradio.com/Archive/2001/09/11/asx/010911swi.asx

> > Tuesday, 11 September 2001 19:50 (ET)

> > DETROIT, Sept. 11 (UPI) -- A lead engineer who worked on New York's

> > World Trade Center Towers expressed shock Tuesday that the 110-story

> > landmarks in Lower Manhattan collapsed after each tower was struck by

> > a hijacked passenger jetliner.

> > Lee Robertson, the project's structural engineer, addressed the

> > problem of terrorism on high-rises at a conference in Frankfurt,

> > Germany, last week, Chicago engineer Joseph Burns told the Chicago

> > Tribune.

> > Burns said Robertson told the conference, "I designed it for a

> > (Boeing)707 to hit it."

> > "Fire melts steel," Burns told the Tribune, speculating that the

> > impact from the planes had damaged sprinkler systems in both

> > towers. "You never know in an explosion like that whether they get

> > cut off," Burns said. Because of the buildings' heights, engineers

> > used tubular construction of tightly spaced steel columns. The floor

> > trusses were built across to this central core.

> > Copyright 2001 by United Press International.

> > All rights reserved.

> > Reason is the enemy of terror.

> > By Fintan Dunne, co-Editor

> > TWO WTC DESIGNERS SAY BUILDING DESIGNED FOR PLANE IMPACT

> > Rumor Mill News Read Only Forum

> > interview with WTC architect

> > Posted By: pan

> > Tuesday, 11 September 2001, 5:35 p.m.

> > Aaron Swirski, one of the architects of the World Trade Center, talks

> > exclusively to Jerusalem Post Radio on the World Trade Center

> > collapse after the double attack.

> > You will need Windows Media Player

> > Pan's comments: The architect himself is puzzled at the nature of the

> > building's collapse. He says they designed the towers to withstand

> > something like a plane flying into the side.

> > It would be great to get a transcription of this interview.

> > http://www.jpradio.com/Archive/2001/09/11/asx/010911swi.asx

> >

> >

> > there is much more heavy stuff,

> >

> > TRUST ONLY GOD ,

> >

> > best of wishes

> >

> > Hare Krishna

> >

> > Chaitanya S. das

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > gjlist, "Don" <vedicreadings@t...> wrote:

> > > Yes it was Wendy,

> > > and I do understand the shock and confusion of those innocent

> > people that

> > > this has affected, it is not to them that my finger points...it is

> > the same

> > > greedy muti-nationals you mention, and they are not all American,

> > in fact

> > > many are European, shadowy characters that grace the Trilateral

> > Commission,

> > > the Builderburgers, Committee of 300, etc etc...they and other

> > elite are

> > > slowly pulling the carpet out from all of us and we better soon

> > wake up to

> > > it... the few can't really control the many without their consent,

> > that is

> > > why they manufacture it as Noam Chomsky so eloquently put it.

> > > I knew with out a doubt I stood a good possibility that I would be

> > > misunderstood, but that goes with the territory... I love people

> > for who

> > > they as individuals, country of birth has nothing to do with it, it

> > is the

> > > integrity and character that has meaning to me... And I hate

> > adharmic

> > > people that will use people with total disregard for their well

> > being as

> > > long as it serves their ends......

> > > People are waking up to the game and sometimes like wag the dog our

> > > attention is misdirected, as in any good magick, so don't take you

> > eye of

> > > the one who stand to gain from this....

> > > Respectfully

> > > Don

> > >

> > > -

> > > "Wendy Vasicek" <wenvas@d...>

> > > <gjlist>

> > > Saturday, September 15, 2001 8:11 AM

> > > Re: [gjlist] What is...what has begun..and what will be...

> > >

> > >

> > > > Wow!!

> > > >

> > > > That's really spitting some chips Don. I must say your post has

> > taken me

> > > by surprise......

> > > >

> > > > Whilst I agree with you that Cancer rising (Bin Laden) is a

> > possibility, I

> > > can't agree with the rest of your post. I think we should be

> > sensitive to

> > > the fact that America (and our American colleagues) have just

> > undergone a

> > > terrible tragedy. They're still searching for their dead for

> > goodness sake!

> > > >

> > > > Let's have some compassion for their suffering!!

> > > >

> > > > We all have our own political views, myself

> > included...globalisation is

> > > having an enormously detrimental effect on ordinary Australians who

> > watch

> > > helplessly as their whole economic structure is taken over by

> > > multi-nationals. Even such things as Dairy farms and crop farms

> > have fallen

> > > prey to foreign ownership. Ordinary Australians have become

> > disenfranchised.

> > > We now have a new class of people here called "the working

> > poor"........the

> > > basic wage is below the poverty line and the most disadvantaged

> > (pensioners

> > > and unemployed) in our society, live a life of absolute poverty.

> > > >

> > > > The anger and frustration grows here as we watch our Country get

> > sold out

> > > from under us. This is a dreadful state of affairs! For many, the

> > hope for a

> > > better life slips further and further away as the rich get richer

> > and

> > > richer.

> > > >

> > > > But this is not (singularly) due to US influence. Some of the

> > major

> > > players in this great injustice are Australians. The media tycoon

> > Rupert

> > > Murdoch is one I can name. It's a dreadful thing that's happened to

> > the

> > > people of the World. We now have what is known as "Corporate

> > politics"...big

> > > business runs the World today and our politicians are their puppets.

> > > >

> > > > What to do? It's a dreadful situation the World is in today!

> > > >

> > > > Rgds, Wendy

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > gjlist-

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Your use of is subject to

> >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> >

> >

> >

> > gjlist-

> >

> >

> >

> > Your use of is subject to

 

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Dear brave Don:

 

I read your post, closed my eyes , felt very sad and I pray that no

one will touch us , that our contribution to free the worl from Maya

is over. I know how do you feel , perhaps this is the price to pay

for being genuine , with our own life, but in the meantime lets pray

with our hearts with so much determination as if today will be the

last day.

 

Please accept a Big hug

 

my best wishes

 

Hare Ram Krishna

 

C.S.das

 

 

gjlist, "Don" <vedicreadings@t...> wrote:

> Hello brother,

> I know I hit the target as did the genius of the Divine law of

Karma....it

> is the slow grinding of the wheels of karma. I also want to

acknowledge the

> profound, and truthful posting of our lists creator Das

Goravani.... a very

> thoughtful and meaningful addition to the list of respected members

for

> serious consideration.....

>

> Brother I only want to speak the truth, as My limited perception

will allow

> me in this time and place. We are so much acceptable to the

manipulations

> of powerful offices: that we have no idea even exist, and we are

too often

> swept into ventures that are drenched in blood and long range

affects, we

> forget the impact of the actions we have taken. Since the

Revolution of

> Napoleon, when the spy network of the Rothschild's put them into the

> position of control, not only over the markets of the London

exchange, but

> soon enabled them the power to print money under the guise of the

Bank of

> England, all future generations have been more or less under the

unfolding

> of their intention.

> They eventually moved their agenda forward through wealth and the

control

> they exercised, usurping political intention of the peoples good,

and served

> instead the alliances of those involved in Mystery schools, such as

the

> Masons, Rosicrucian's, etc.... to have a One world

Government....... or New

> World Order...or whatever severs their purpose.... People

however well

> intentioned have been slaughtered for their ends unwittingly.

> When are the less fortunate going to wake up to the injustice, that

uses

> them for the completion of their objectives. That they can't even

> comprehend the spirit of the ones that have warped there view of

the Real.

>

> If one challenges this as a conspiracy theory, I challenge them

that they

> are on the side of your undoing, this is not a conspiracy but an

insidious

> assault to your integrity and humanity.

> Unfortunately I know too much for my own good, as they say, and I

have no

> doubt they will kill me in their own good time, but as in the

fashion of

> Gandhi, Malcolm X, and other seekers of truth, I may be silenced

but the

> truth will never die.

> We need to take a good look at the truth and our personal position

in

> regards to it, and see where it is we want to align ourselves.....

> I will gladly die for My truth, and respect those that will do the

same.

> Why die in the name of a truth that severs the interests of

another??

> This is a time when the chonchshells are blowing, and we have to

decide

> where our personal blessing are going to be given...

> Love to all,

> Don

>

>

>

> -

> <joshnitai@n...>

> <gjlist>

> Sunday, September 16, 2001 11:37 AM

> [gjlist] Re: What is...what has begun..and what will be...

>

>

> >

> > Dear Don:

> >

> > You hit the target !!!!.. watch out!, very soon will be an act of

> > terrorism to pass information such as this one: but lets live only

> > defending the truth even if we have to pay with our own blood.

> >

> > Who are really responsible...search Bilderberg Oligarchy -

Kissinger

> > et.al

> > http://www.jpradio.com/Archive/2001/09/11/asx/010911swi.asx

> > WTC DESIGNED FOR 707 HIT -say top engineers!!!

> > Posted By: PsyOpNews

> > Tuesday, 11 September 2001, 11:23 p.m.

> > TWO WTC DESIGNERS SAY BUILDING DESIGNED FOR PLANE IMPACT

> > http://www.rumormillnews.net/cgi-bin/config.pl?read=11361

> > Towers' collapse shocks engineers

> > "I designed it for a (Boeing)707 to hit it." !!!

> > ---said Lee Robertson, the WTC project's structural engineer,

> > addressing a conference in Frankfurt, Germany, LAST WEEK, on

problem

> > of terrorism on high-rises, according to Chicago engineer Joseph

> > Burns to the Chicago Tribune.

> > ALSO:

> > "It was designed around that eventuality [of a plane] to survive

this

> > kind of impact" ---Aaron Swirski, one of the architects of the

World

> > Trade Center, talks exclusively to Jerusalem Post Radio on the

World

> > Trade Center collapse after the double attack.

> > http://www.jpradio.com/Archive/2001/09/11/asx/010911swi.asx

> > Tuesday, 11 September 2001 19:50 (ET)

> > DETROIT, Sept. 11 (UPI) -- A lead engineer who worked on New

York's

> > World Trade Center Towers expressed shock Tuesday that the 110-

story

> > landmarks in Lower Manhattan collapsed after each tower was

struck by

> > a hijacked passenger jetliner.

> > Lee Robertson, the project's structural engineer, addressed the

> > problem of terrorism on high-rises at a conference in Frankfurt,

> > Germany, last week, Chicago engineer Joseph Burns told the Chicago

> > Tribune.

> > Burns said Robertson told the conference, "I designed it for a

> > (Boeing)707 to hit it."

> > "Fire melts steel," Burns told the Tribune, speculating that the

> > impact from the planes had damaged sprinkler systems in both

> > towers. "You never know in an explosion like that whether they get

> > cut off," Burns said. Because of the buildings' heights, engineers

> > used tubular construction of tightly spaced steel columns. The

floor

> > trusses were built across to this central core.

> > Copyright 2001 by United Press International.

> > All rights reserved.

> > Reason is the enemy of terror.

> > By Fintan Dunne, co-Editor

> > TWO WTC DESIGNERS SAY BUILDING DESIGNED FOR PLANE IMPACT

> > Rumor Mill News Read Only Forum

> > interview with WTC architect

> > Posted By: pan

> > Tuesday, 11 September 2001, 5:35 p.m.

> > Aaron Swirski, one of the architects of the World Trade Center,

talks

> > exclusively to Jerusalem Post Radio on the World Trade Center

> > collapse after the double attack.

> > You will need Windows Media Player

> > Pan's comments: The architect himself is puzzled at the nature of

the

> > building's collapse. He says they designed the towers to withstand

> > something like a plane flying into the side.

> > It would be great to get a transcription of this interview.

> > http://www.jpradio.com/Archive/2001/09/11/asx/010911swi.asx

> >

> >

> > there is much more heavy stuff,

> >

> > TRUST ONLY GOD ,

> >

> > best of wishes

> >

> > Hare Krishna

> >

> > Chaitanya S. das

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > gjlist, "Don" <vedicreadings@t...> wrote:

> > > Yes it was Wendy,

> > > and I do understand the shock and confusion of those innocent

> > people that

> > > this has affected, it is not to them that my finger points...it

is

> > the same

> > > greedy muti-nationals you mention, and they are not all

American,

> > in fact

> > > many are European, shadowy characters that grace the Trilateral

> > Commission,

> > > the Builderburgers, Committee of 300, etc etc...they and other

> > elite are

> > > slowly pulling the carpet out from all of us and we better soon

> > wake up to

> > > it... the few can't really control the many without their

consent,

> > that is

> > > why they manufacture it as Noam Chomsky so eloquently put it.

> > > I knew with out a doubt I stood a good possibility that I would

be

> > > misunderstood, but that goes with the territory... I love people

> > for who

> > > they as individuals, country of birth has nothing to do with

it, it

> > is the

> > > integrity and character that has meaning to me... And I hate

> > adharmic

> > > people that will use people with total disregard for their well

> > being as

> > > long as it serves their ends......

> > > People are waking up to the game and sometimes like wag the dog

our

> > > attention is misdirected, as in any good magick, so don't take

you

> > eye of

> > > the one who stand to gain from this....

> > > Respectfully

> > > Don

> > >

> > > -

> > > "Wendy Vasicek" <wenvas@d...>

> > > <gjlist>

> > > Saturday, September 15, 2001 8:11 AM

> > > Re: [gjlist] What is...what has begun..and what will

be...

> > >

> > >

> > > > Wow!!

> > > >

> > > > That's really spitting some chips Don. I must say your post

has

> > taken me

> > > by surprise......

> > > >

> > > > Whilst I agree with you that Cancer rising (Bin Laden) is a

> > possibility, I

> > > can't agree with the rest of your post. I think we should be

> > sensitive to

> > > the fact that America (and our American colleagues) have just

> > undergone a

> > > terrible tragedy. They're still searching for their dead for

> > goodness sake!

> > > >

> > > > Let's have some compassion for their suffering!!

> > > >

> > > > We all have our own political views, myself

> > included...globalisation is

> > > having an enormously detrimental effect on ordinary Australians

who

> > watch

> > > helplessly as their whole economic structure is taken over by

> > > multi-nationals. Even such things as Dairy farms and crop farms

> > have fallen

> > > prey to foreign ownership. Ordinary Australians have become

> > disenfranchised.

> > > We now have a new class of people here called "the working

> > poor"........the

> > > basic wage is below the poverty line and the most disadvantaged

> > (pensioners

> > > and unemployed) in our society, live a life of absolute poverty.

> > > >

> > > > The anger and frustration grows here as we watch our Country

get

> > sold out

> > > from under us. This is a dreadful state of affairs! For many,

the

> > hope for a

> > > better life slips further and further away as the rich get

richer

> > and

> > > richer.

> > > >

> > > > But this is not (singularly) due to US influence. Some of the

> > major

> > > players in this great injustice are Australians. The media

tycoon

> > Rupert

> > > Murdoch is one I can name. It's a dreadful thing that's

happened to

> > the

> > > people of the World. We now have what is known as "Corporate

> > politics"...big

> > > business runs the World today and our politicians are their

puppets.

> > > >

> > > > What to do? It's a dreadful situation the World is in today!

> > > >

> > > > Rgds, Wendy

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > gjlist-

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Your use of is subject to

> >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> >

> >

> >

> > gjlist-

> >

> >

> >

> > Your use of is subject to

 

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

C.S. das Wrote:

>>I read your post, closed my eyes , felt very sad and I pray that no one will

touch us , that our contribution to free the world from Maya is over.<<

 

I'm a bit bewildered as to how one would go about freeing the World from

Maya...the World IS Maya, it's all Maya...

 

There has always been, and always will be (in Kali Yuga) this conflict between

rich and poor, right and wrong, east and west, etc...Although I live in the West

and have a computer, I assure you I am one of the very poor. But we all know

that if it was my destiny to be rich I WOULD BE! I can lay the blame on many

things for my poverty but the fact is IT"S MY KARMA! The rich also have the

karma to be rich...we can hate them for that and go blow up their mansions, but

will that end our poverty? Will that change our karma, or theirs?

 

The gap between rich and poor is growing ever wider and the resentment is

growing proportionally, but who is really to blame...can the rich and powerful

change their karma; can the leper change his karma?

 

I know that I too fall into the mindset of rich verses poor etc, etc...it's

all too easy to get caught up in the world and it's affairs...to try to find a

solution! Until enlightenment comes it's hard being in the world. We may be

jyotisha but we're still caught in the grip of maya like everyone else...we

still go through our own battles and lose sight of the divinity in ourselves and

others. And this is another great dilemma in this human condition; that we more

easily see the divinity in ourselves than in our enemy.

 

Namaste,

Wendy

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

thanks *s*

Hare KRSNA!

 

-

<joshnitai

<gjlist>

Monday, September 17, 2001 12:19 AM

[gjlist] Re: What is...what has begun..and what will be...

 

 

>

> Dear brave Don:

>

> I read your post, closed my eyes , felt very sad and I pray that no

> one will touch us , that our contribution to free the worl from Maya

> is over. I know how do you feel , perhaps this is the price to pay

> for being genuine , with our own life, but in the meantime lets pray

> with our hearts with so much determination as if today will be the

> last day.

>

> Please accept a Big hug

>

> my best wishes

>

> Hare Ram Krishna

>

> C.S.das

>

>

> gjlist, "Don" <vedicreadings@t...> wrote:

> > Hello brother,

> > I know I hit the target as did the genius of the Divine law of

> Karma....it

> > is the slow grinding of the wheels of karma. I also want to

> acknowledge the

> > profound, and truthful posting of our lists creator Das

> Goravani.... a very

> > thoughtful and meaningful addition to the list of respected members

> for

> > serious consideration.....

> >

> > Brother I only want to speak the truth, as My limited perception

> will allow

> > me in this time and place. We are so much acceptable to the

> manipulations

> > of powerful offices: that we have no idea even exist, and we are

> too often

> > swept into ventures that are drenched in blood and long range

> affects, we

> > forget the impact of the actions we have taken. Since the

> Revolution of

> > Napoleon, when the spy network of the Rothschild's put them into the

> > position of control, not only over the markets of the London

> exchange, but

> > soon enabled them the power to print money under the guise of the

> Bank of

> > England, all future generations have been more or less under the

> unfolding

> > of their intention.

> > They eventually moved their agenda forward through wealth and the

> control

> > they exercised, usurping political intention of the peoples good,

> and served

> > instead the alliances of those involved in Mystery schools, such as

> the

> > Masons, Rosicrucian's, etc.... to have a One world

> Government....... or New

> > World Order...or whatever severs their purpose.... People

> however well

> > intentioned have been slaughtered for their ends unwittingly.

> > When are the less fortunate going to wake up to the injustice, that

> uses

> > them for the completion of their objectives. That they can't even

> > comprehend the spirit of the ones that have warped there view of

> the Real.

> >

> > If one challenges this as a conspiracy theory, I challenge them

> that they

> > are on the side of your undoing, this is not a conspiracy but an

> insidious

> > assault to your integrity and humanity.

> > Unfortunately I know too much for my own good, as they say, and I

> have no

> > doubt they will kill me in their own good time, but as in the

> fashion of

> > Gandhi, Malcolm X, and other seekers of truth, I may be silenced

> but the

> > truth will never die.

> > We need to take a good look at the truth and our personal position

> in

> > regards to it, and see where it is we want to align ourselves.....

> > I will gladly die for My truth, and respect those that will do the

> same.

> > Why die in the name of a truth that severs the interests of

> another??

> > This is a time when the chonchshells are blowing, and we have to

> decide

> > where our personal blessing are going to be given...

> > Love to all,

> > Don

> >

> >

> >

> > -

> > <joshnitai@n...>

> > <gjlist>

> > Sunday, September 16, 2001 11:37 AM

> > [gjlist] Re: What is...what has begun..and what will be...

> >

> >

> > >

> > > Dear Don:

> > >

> > > You hit the target !!!!.. watch out!, very soon will be an act of

> > > terrorism to pass information such as this one: but lets live only

> > > defending the truth even if we have to pay with our own blood.

> > >

> > > Who are really responsible...search Bilderberg Oligarchy -

> Kissinger

> > > et.al

> > > http://www.jpradio.com/Archive/2001/09/11/asx/010911swi.asx

> > > WTC DESIGNED FOR 707 HIT -say top engineers!!!

> > > Posted By: PsyOpNews

> > > Tuesday, 11 September 2001, 11:23 p.m.

> > > TWO WTC DESIGNERS SAY BUILDING DESIGNED FOR PLANE IMPACT

> > > http://www.rumormillnews.net/cgi-bin/config.pl?read=11361

> > > Towers' collapse shocks engineers

> > > "I designed it for a (Boeing)707 to hit it." !!!

> > > ---said Lee Robertson, the WTC project's structural engineer,

> > > addressing a conference in Frankfurt, Germany, LAST WEEK, on

> problem

> > > of terrorism on high-rises, according to Chicago engineer Joseph

> > > Burns to the Chicago Tribune.

> > > ALSO:

> > > "It was designed around that eventuality [of a plane] to survive

> this

> > > kind of impact" ---Aaron Swirski, one of the architects of the

> World

> > > Trade Center, talks exclusively to Jerusalem Post Radio on the

> World

> > > Trade Center collapse after the double attack.

> > > http://www.jpradio.com/Archive/2001/09/11/asx/010911swi.asx

> > > Tuesday, 11 September 2001 19:50 (ET)

> > > DETROIT, Sept. 11 (UPI) -- A lead engineer who worked on New

> York's

> > > World Trade Center Towers expressed shock Tuesday that the 110-

> story

> > > landmarks in Lower Manhattan collapsed after each tower was

> struck by

> > > a hijacked passenger jetliner.

> > > Lee Robertson, the project's structural engineer, addressed the

> > > problem of terrorism on high-rises at a conference in Frankfurt,

> > > Germany, last week, Chicago engineer Joseph Burns told the Chicago

> > > Tribune.

> > > Burns said Robertson told the conference, "I designed it for a

> > > (Boeing)707 to hit it."

> > > "Fire melts steel," Burns told the Tribune, speculating that the

> > > impact from the planes had damaged sprinkler systems in both

> > > towers. "You never know in an explosion like that whether they get

> > > cut off," Burns said. Because of the buildings' heights, engineers

> > > used tubular construction of tightly spaced steel columns. The

> floor

> > > trusses were built across to this central core.

> > > Copyright 2001 by United Press International.

> > > All rights reserved.

> > > Reason is the enemy of terror.

> > > By Fintan Dunne, co-Editor

> > > TWO WTC DESIGNERS SAY BUILDING DESIGNED FOR PLANE IMPACT

> > > Rumor Mill News Read Only Forum

> > > interview with WTC architect

> > > Posted By: pan

> > > Tuesday, 11 September 2001, 5:35 p.m.

> > > Aaron Swirski, one of the architects of the World Trade Center,

> talks

> > > exclusively to Jerusalem Post Radio on the World Trade Center

> > > collapse after the double attack.

> > > You will need Windows Media Player

> > > Pan's comments: The architect himself is puzzled at the nature of

> the

> > > building's collapse. He says they designed the towers to withstand

> > > something like a plane flying into the side.

> > > It would be great to get a transcription of this interview.

> > > http://www.jpradio.com/Archive/2001/09/11/asx/010911swi.asx

> > >

> > >

> > > there is much more heavy stuff,

> > >

> > > TRUST ONLY GOD ,

> > >

> > > best of wishes

> > >

> > > Hare Krishna

> > >

> > > Chaitanya S. das

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > gjlist, "Don" <vedicreadings@t...> wrote:

> > > > Yes it was Wendy,

> > > > and I do understand the shock and confusion of those innocent

> > > people that

> > > > this has affected, it is not to them that my finger points...it

> is

> > > the same

> > > > greedy muti-nationals you mention, and they are not all

> American,

> > > in fact

> > > > many are European, shadowy characters that grace the Trilateral

> > > Commission,

> > > > the Builderburgers, Committee of 300, etc etc...they and other

> > > elite are

> > > > slowly pulling the carpet out from all of us and we better soon

> > > wake up to

> > > > it... the few can't really control the many without their

> consent,

> > > that is

> > > > why they manufacture it as Noam Chomsky so eloquently put it.

> > > > I knew with out a doubt I stood a good possibility that I would

> be

> > > > misunderstood, but that goes with the territory... I love people

> > > for who

> > > > they as individuals, country of birth has nothing to do with

> it, it

> > > is the

> > > > integrity and character that has meaning to me... And I hate

> > > adharmic

> > > > people that will use people with total disregard for their well

> > > being as

> > > > long as it serves their ends......

> > > > People are waking up to the game and sometimes like wag the dog

> our

> > > > attention is misdirected, as in any good magick, so don't take

> you

> > > eye of

> > > > the one who stand to gain from this....

> > > > Respectfully

> > > > Don

> > > >

> > > > -

> > > > "Wendy Vasicek" <wenvas@d...>

> > > > <gjlist>

> > > > Saturday, September 15, 2001 8:11 AM

> > > > Re: [gjlist] What is...what has begun..and what will

> be...

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > > Wow!!

> > > > >

> > > > > That's really spitting some chips Don. I must say your post

> has

> > > taken me

> > > > by surprise......

> > > > >

> > > > > Whilst I agree with you that Cancer rising (Bin Laden) is a

> > > possibility, I

> > > > can't agree with the rest of your post. I think we should be

> > > sensitive to

> > > > the fact that America (and our American colleagues) have just

> > > undergone a

> > > > terrible tragedy. They're still searching for their dead for

> > > goodness sake!

> > > > >

> > > > > Let's have some compassion for their suffering!!

> > > > >

> > > > > We all have our own political views, myself

> > > included...globalisation is

> > > > having an enormously detrimental effect on ordinary Australians

> who

> > > watch

> > > > helplessly as their whole economic structure is taken over by

> > > > multi-nationals. Even such things as Dairy farms and crop farms

> > > have fallen

> > > > prey to foreign ownership. Ordinary Australians have become

> > > disenfranchised.

> > > > We now have a new class of people here called "the working

> > > poor"........the

> > > > basic wage is below the poverty line and the most disadvantaged

> > > (pensioners

> > > > and unemployed) in our society, live a life of absolute poverty.

> > > > >

> > > > > The anger and frustration grows here as we watch our Country

> get

> > > sold out

> > > > from under us. This is a dreadful state of affairs! For many,

> the

> > > hope for a

> > > > better life slips further and further away as the rich get

> richer

> > > and

> > > > richer.

> > > > >

> > > > > But this is not (singularly) due to US influence. Some of the

> > > major

> > > > players in this great injustice are Australians. The media

> tycoon

> > > Rupert

> > > > Murdoch is one I can name. It's a dreadful thing that's

> happened to

> > > the

> > > > people of the World. We now have what is known as "Corporate

> > > politics"...big

> > > > business runs the World today and our politicians are their

> puppets.

> > > > >

> > > > > What to do? It's a dreadful situation the World is in today!

> > > > >

> > > > > Rgds, Wendy

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > gjlist-

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Your use of is subject to

> > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > gjlist-

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Your use of is subject to

>

> > >

> > >

> > >

>

>

>

> gjlist-

>

>

>

> Your use of is subject to

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Don wrote:

> Unfortunately I know too much for my own good, as they say, and I have no

> doubt they will kill me in their own good time, but as in the fashion of

> Gandhi, Malcolm X, and other seekers of truth, I may be silenced but the

> truth will never die.

 

Dear Don,

 

I too am in a similar position, as well as my nephew, who was for many years

european chief editor for Interavia, the Jeans´ Magazine for armamament.

Rotschild is not alone, the Vickers-Armstrong group founded by Basil zaharoff is

equally strong, the two have perhaps united!

 

My secrets are perhaps not enough to get an agent to kill me, but they are

bizarre enough. Whatever I say is legitimate thinking of a world citizen, I have

not stated anything with absolute certainty, or revealed what exactly I know. I

had sworn to keep that secret and it remains so till today!

 

Re: Zaharoff, who created World war I*: Upton Sinclair wrote the report into a

novel. The BBC and the German TV made documentaries. I read the first edition of

sinclair`s book, saw the first presentations of the documentaries by chance. All

my later efforts to get these originals have been in vain: In all libraries

here, both the original english and the german translations are of a later

date, AND at the relevant place the publisher says, " the next chapter has been

eliminated (by request)" whose request? The BBC refused to send me their video,

the German TV did - with the most telling parts blacked out!!! I paid 100

dollars for this castrated version!

 

* i am sure that this group is constantly creating friction to sell arms.

 

We feel impotent, walk on the edge of a razor. all we can do is to write on such

lists - I write only on this - and hope the populace will awake and protest

against being led by the nose!

 

regards

Mani