Srila Prabhupada's lagna

October 9, 2001

Namaste Jyotishis,

The following is a long post, so be forewarned! It is a portion of a

session I did last year with my student Tara Suryamani, specifically on the

subject of Prabhupada's chart. The controversy of whether the lagna should

be Sagittarius or Capricorn, raises very significant astrological

questions, and further the debate is illuminating, whether or not persons

of either persuasion agree. So anyway, the following is a portion of that

session. Please note the arguments I have presented (as a disciple of

Srila Prabhupada since 1970), cum Jyotishi in recent years:

>> Now, coming to the chart of Srila Prabhupada, we have two proposed

ascendants as you probably know, one being Capricorn & the other being

Sagittarius. Both of my jyotish gurus, namely first of all, K.N. Rao &

second of all, Sanjay Rath, both have different ideas and a different view

of what the ascendant for Srila Prabhupada is. After hearing all the

arguments for both of them, my conclusion is that it is very definitely the

Sagittarius ascendant, which would have resulted from birth being around

3:30 Pm or a little bit earlier than that if we go even 15 minutes forward

from there, then we come up with Capricorn as the ascendant of the

chart. Now naturally the 29th degree of Sagittarius has much more meaning

as the ascendant of one of the greatest spiritual teachers of all time than

2 degrees or 3 degrees, 52 minutes of Capricorn. And these are the

arguments. First of all, 29 degrees of Sagittarius is the constellation of

Uttarashada & Uttarashada being ruled by the Sun goes directly to the 9th

house & is in the 9th house with the lord of the ascendant, which is a

tremendous Lakshmi yoga. Lakshmi yoga exists in the proposed Capricorn

chart as well, but Jupiter-Sun-Ketu in the 9th house is much more

appropriate when we consider the 9th house, like the 5th, are the houses of

Lakshmi, the ascendant is one of the houses of Vishnu. And so far as gurus

representing the Light or the Sattva guna, you are going to have planets

influencing the 9th house more so than planets influencing the 8th

house. I think where the mistake was in K. N. Rao's mind was that he had

seen many so called Sattvics or Tapasvis, which are kinds of ascetics in

India with predominant planets in the 8th house. Well the 8th house has to

do with a much lower guna than the 9th house obviously, & so for someone

who completely resonates with the transcendental mode of Sattwa, the 9th

house has to be emphasized.

Further to that, this puts the malefics, namely Rahu, Saturn & Mars who

normally can cause problems in a person's life, that is struggle with the

lower propensities of human nature, which act out the animal instincts,

they are going to be much more tame when in the 3rd, 6th & 9th

houses. Rather than if you use the Capricorn chart, you would have had

Rahu in the 2nd house. How could Rahu possibly be in the 2nd house in the

chart of a great spiritual leader & learned person? The 2nd house is the

house of speech. Rahu in the 2nd house represents deceptive or

dishonorable speech or lack of integrity in the matter of speech. And

furthermore, the 2nd house is the house of knowledge. How could there be

knowledge of significant proportion with Rahu in the 2nd house, especially

knowledge of scripture & knowledge of sattvic subject matters. Now, so

that means that the desire nature that has to do with the 3rd house

basically has Rahu in it. Rahu is supposed to be very strong in the 3rd

house. And furthermore, the lord of the 3rd is exalted in the 11th of the

Sagittarius chart. That means that the 11th is also the house of

desire. Desire originates in the 3rd house & desire is fulfilled in the

11th house. So, if you have desire captured in the 3rd house, desire is

generally subdued, especially also when a strong Jupiter & a strong 9th

lord aspect Rahu in the 3rd house. So, the desire nature, represented by

Rahu & represented by the 3rd house, become completely subdued in this

chart. Rahu, again, one, is strong & tame in the third. Number two, when

it is aspected by Jupiter & the lord of the 9th, then it is even more

so. And so far as the conclusion or the ripening fruit of the desire,

namely the 11th house, you see Saturn there in exaltation, meaning that he

controls the lower nature & the senses. So, otherwise, the lord of the 3rd

in the Capricorn chart would be Jupiter & the lord of the 3rd going to the

8th would suggest that the person had desires of a Tantric sort of nature,

or the person would have desires to control or to manipulate others through

some kinds of spiritual devices. And this is certainly not the modus

operandi of A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.

Now, another attribute of the 3rd house in astrology is that it relates

to talents. What is the person particularly gifted at? Now, in

Prabhupada's Sagittarius chart, the lord of the 3rd goes to the 9th from

itself, so taking the 3rd house as the house of gifts or the house of

talents, its lord being exalted in the 9th from itself indicates that his

gift is in the area of spirituality. And naturally, when you see the lord

of the ascendant joins Ketu & the 9th lord in the 9th house, that's further

confirmed. Now, another interesting fact about Prabhupada's Sagittarius

chart is that the lord of the 12th is in the 6th with the lord of the

8th. This constitutes a Vipareet raja yoga. It so happens that the lord

of the 12th also happens to be the lord of the 5th. Now it was a fact that

Prabhupada's biological sons turned out to be inimical toward him. And it

is also a fact that his own disciples turned out to be in many ways an

obstacle in the ultimate mission of ISKCON. And so why is that? Well,

some of the governing board commissioners, you probably heard the story

many times having gone to the temple, got avaricious after Prabhupada's

departure & instead of taking on the task of preaching the natural message

of Krsna Consciousness, instead wanted to control politically by assuming

falsely positions of guru themselves. So, when you see the lord of the 5th

going to the 6th with the lord of the 8th, there's going to be trouble with

disciples as well as natural sons.

However, we have to see two relieving factors that the lord of the 5th is

also the lord of the 12th, joining the lord of the 8th so that means that

in the final analysis, those rather course & Rahu like disciples eventually

get it straight & pursue the proper path. Also, the Arudha of the 5th

house happens to be the sign of Gemini & the sign of Gemini has exalted

planet Mercury as its lord. And it was very much the fact that Prabhupada

accomplished his writing of so many volumes of books with great help from

not only the savvy of his disciples who knew how to put together & publish

books & how to illustrate them very beautifully, but also with the

financial contributions of some disciples. And so 11th lord Venus joins

exalted Mercury as the lord of the Arudha of the 5th house. It so happens

that the Arudha of the 11th house is directly the 9th, so great gains were

to be achieved by his initiating disciples & opening temples all over the

world.

Now, it was stated by an astrologer, when Prabhupada was born, as is the

customary tendency of Hindu families to consult the astrologer at the birth

of a child. The astrologer said that in Prabhupada's 70th year, he would

go to America & he would open 108 temples. This actually happened. So,

the question is, coming back to our chart controversy, where do you see

that in the Capricorn chart? You see the lord of the 4th going to the

5th. You see the lord of the 5th joining the lord of the 7th, but you

don't see the lord of the 12th &/or the lord of the 9th joining the lord of

either the lord of the ascendant or the lord of the 4th. Now, so far as

moving to or traveling to a distant or foreign country, there must be the

lord's of the ascendant & the 4th & in some cases the 7th joining or being

aspected by lords of 9th & the 12th. None of those factors apply in the

Capricorn proposed chart for Prabhupada, whereas all of them apply for the

Sagittarius chart as follows. The lord of the ascendant & the lord of the

4th are the same, namely Jupiter, and they go to the lord of the 9th in the

9th house. And furthermore, they are aspected by the lord of the 12th,

which is Mars. So, the yoga applies verbatim that he would go to a foreign

country during the appropriate dasas. Actually, it was during Mercury-Rahu

that he went to the foreign country, but the point being that the lord of

the ascendant & 4th go to the 9th with the 9th lord, aspected by the lord

of the 12th. So, the yoga applies verbatim, whereas none of those factors

for going to a foreign country, being successful in foreign countries apply

in the Sagittarius chart. So, those are the strongest arguments.

Now, so far as my chart is concerned, my atmakaraka planet is at 29 degrees

Gemini, whereas Prabhupada's ascendant is at 29 degrees of Sagittarius, so

it makes much more sense to me that my atmakaraka planet, which also falls

in my 9th house would be on the direct 7th house axis of my guru's

chart. Also, Venus in his chart, which is the dispositor of the 5th lord,

is almost in the exact same degree & minute of the Sun in my birth

chart. So, those connections are very significant also.

Now there was another point I wanted to make with regard to Prabhupada's

chart & the chart of ISKCON. If we use the birth time that was given for

the ISKCON chart, which was 19 (somebody had rectified it to 19, or 7 PM),

the original time given was 19.30 or 7:30 PM on July 11, 1966, New York

City, USA. Somebody in the SJVC circles had rectified it to 19.35.30. So,

I would correct the time to 19.35.30. Some things about the ISKCON chart

are very clearly obvious. Other things are not so clear. But for the most

part, I think the chart is correct. So, with that time & date & place,

1966 -- by the way, this was just before Prabhupada's 70th birthday -- so

the prediction of the astrologer in his birth hometown was astonishingly

accurate, that in his 70th year he would go to America & establish 108

temples. But, anyway, Sagittarius also happens to be the lagna of the

ISKCON chart, so to me, it makes a lot more sense that the lagna of the

ISKCON chart & its founder would be the same, or that there would be

harmony between the ascendant. The ascendant could be Aries or the

ascendant could be Leo, but the ascendant is the same, then it would make

much more sense that Prabhupada's lagna would be Sagittarius rather than

Capricorn, which would put Mars, Jupiter & Sun in the ISKCON chart in the

6th house rather than in the 7th house of Prabhupada's chart. When you

look at Mars, Jupiter, Sun in the ISKCON chart, it is a brilliant

combination, a brilliant yoga. Jupiter ruling the ascendant, Sun ruling

the 9th & Mars ruling the 5th, an outstanding brilliant yoga for the chart

of a worldwide spiritual organization with the guru at its helm. And

especially one that promotes the consciousness of love of Radha & Krsna or

Krsna Consciousness, because the rulers of the Lakshmi houses or dharma

houses are all involved together in a raja yoga, which happens to be

synonymous with the 7th house of Prabhupada's horoscope.

Now, in the 5th house of the ISKCON chart, you see the Moon & you also see

Rahu. Here's a very significant one for you. In Prabhupada's chart, Rahu

is the atmakaraka planet. I already indicated how that is significant,

that his chief mission in life was to go around the world, to go to America

& supplant the teachings of his guru & his disciplic succession, come

through the planet Rahu. And Rahu rules foreign countries, especially

fallen countries or more scientifically oriented, atheistic or agnostic

oriented & also inclined to very physical or sensual type of consciousness

as opposed to a spiritual consciousness with the help of those persons he

was able to achieve his mission. So, that's how Rahu became the atmakaraka

planet in his chart. Now in the ISKCON chart, which would indicate the

society or the organization of such disciples, Rahu happens to be the

Darakaraka. So, the Darakaraka or those who are the subordinate of the

chart or those who are the contractual substance of the chart, namely

ISKCON itself are the Darakaraka. So, Prabhupada's atma as Rahu, the

Darakaraka is also the planet Rahu in ISKCON's chart. I thought that was a

very significant observation.

Now a couple of interesting things come up so far as the chart connections

between you & Prabhupada. I already mentioned, for me the most significant

connection, after which we don't need to go into any other further details,

is that my atmakaraka planet, namely Mars, at 29 degrees Gemini is on the

exact cusp of the 7th house of his chart. And that 7th house happens to be

the sign of Gemini & is also the Arudha of the 5th house. So, it was

destined for me, in other words, to be one of his disciples. Now, cross

referencing to your chart, it's pretty clear that your combination of Sun,

Moon & Venus in the sign of Leo, especially with Venus being the lord of

the 9th Arudha in your chart, the 9th Arudha happens to be the sign of

Taurus, its lord being Venus is there in the 9th house of Prabhupada's

chart where the Sun is in the sign of Leo. And their conjunction is pretty

close. His is at 16.59 or 17 Leo & yours is at 21 degrees Leo, so the

Arudha of the 9th in one person's chart joins the lord of the 9th in the

other person's chart, & furthermore, Ketu & Jupiter at the early degrees of

Leo join your Sun in the early degrees of Leo & the Sun is also the Arudha

of the 5th & the Arudha of the 12th. So, from these connections we can see

very strongly that you were a follower or associate of Prabhupada in the

prior lifetimes. And then also myself, the connections are easy to see. <<

There was more to this dialogue, which I will not reproduce here, but

anyway, the main arguments were given as above for Sagittarius lagna. More

later..........

Best wishes,

Robert

=====================================

Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer

Faculty Member, ACVA and SJVC

Phone: 541-318-0248

visit <http://www.robertkoch.com> or e-mail

rk. rk and

rkoch rkoch

October 10, 2001

Hello Robert,

Although I realize your response to Prabhupada's Capricorn lagna was addressed

to Pursottam, I'm sure (in the spirit of jyotish) you'll not mind my comments...

First; without knowing the precise time you're working with it's difficult to

follow your reasoning fully....

You Wrote:

>>>Also, If Cp were rising in the Navamsa (the chart of dharma), that

would position Venus on the lagna. Now was Prabhupada a Venusian

person? Do we not see pictures of him with a very stern, austere face, a

Sannyasi of the highest order, completely unattached to anything material,

non-sensual, and preferring a very simple and non-flamboyant way of

life? Also, we know that his married life was the height of misery for

him and very unsuccessful. That would not be the case with Yoga-karaka

Venus on the lagna, and 7th lord Moon in the 9th (as per Cp

rising). Instead, if you take Sg Navamsa rising, then 7th lord Mercury is

in an enemy sign (Aries), with Saturn and Ketu. He renounced marriage and

family life (Saturn is lord of 2nd), and took Sannyasa. Can you show this

from the proposed Cp lagna in Navamsa?<<<

Now looking at Sagittarius lagna, using (tentative) time of 15.04 we do indeed

have Sagittarius rising in navamsha, as you say, with 7th lord's dispositor

(Mars) in the 7th house itself...please note the exchange of signs (mutual

reception) between 7th lord and 7th lord's dispositor, enhancing each other's

energies...both planets become more powerful. Certainly this can indicate a hot,

passionate married life, but is not (to my mind) a strong indication of misery

and separation. Of course the aspect (on Venus) by debilitated Saturn is

unfavourable for significations of Venus, but we have that same aspect no matter

what time is used.

However with Capricorn lagna (tentative 15.56 T.O.B.) we have Aquarius Navamsha

with 7th (Rashi lord) Moon conjunct (Rashi) 8th lord Sun in 8th navamsha, whilst

significator of spouse (Venus) has gone to the 12th house...this surely

indicates misery and separation.

I look forward to interpreting more of the chart as energy levels permit.....

Best Wishes,

Wendy

==========================

Wendy Vasicek: Vedic Astrologer

http://welcome.to/Vedic Astrology/

wenvas

October 11, 2001

Dear Wendy,

You wrote:

>However with Capricorn lagna (tentative 15.56 T.O.B.) we have Aquarius

>Navamsha with 7th (Rashi lord) Moon conjunct (Rashi) 8th lord Sun in 8th

>navamsha, whilst significator of spouse (Venus) has gone to the 12th

>house...this surely indicates misery and separation.

This is getting to the core of the debate. Among those who propose Cp

rising for Prabhupada, which Navamsa lagna do you choose between Cp and

Aq? From what you write above, you choose Aq. Is that also the case with

others who prefer Cp rising in the rasi?

Now, if it is Aq rising in Navamsa (and Cp rising in rasi), how would you

explain his greatly successful efforts in spreading Krsna Consciousness,

with Rahu in 9th, and 10th lord and 3rd lord Mars (functionally malefic) in

5th, in exchange with 5th and 8th lord Mercury, with the luminaries in the

8th? You also cannot very easily see birth of three children either. I

can't see the pattern emerging with Aq as Navamsa lagna, nor can I see it

with Cp Navamsa rising either.

If the last Navamsa of Sg rises in the rasi, then of course we have a

vargottama lagna in Sg. Then, it becomes more clear: Regarding marriage,

first of all: 7th lord goes to the 5th, in company with Ketu and Saturn,

Mars in the 7th (challenging, al beit hopeless marriage); 5th lord Mars in

the 7th, and karaka Jupiter in the 5th with Ketu and Saturn, accounts for

his sons being inimical to him, especially after he took Sannyasa

(renunciation); 9th lord (Sun) in the 10th, with 1st and 4th lord Jupiter

and 7th and 10th lord Mercury in the 5th with Ketu and Saturn, are a great

Raja-yoga making him powerful in the matter of preaching and spreading

Vaishnava dharma all over the world. I do not see nearly the same

possibilities using either Cp or Aq rising in Navamsa.

Note that the Navamsa is an important chart in the study of a great guru or

spiritual teacher, in that it directly reflects dharma and the extent to

which one has developed it (from prior lifetimes), practises it, and in the

case of some, spreads it around for the benefit of others. I prefer to use

8 Chara karakas (as mentioned many times before), and doing this, Rahu

becomes the Atmakaraka. Taking his position in the Navamsa, he is in the

11th in a friendly sign (Libra). This is the Karakamsa lagna. Now see the

positions and relations of planets therefrom, and draw your own

conclusions. The luminaries are in the 12th from KL (Moksa), with all the

planets in kendra and trikona positions therefrom. Of course, that would

be true no matter what lagna you chose, but also see the position of KL and

AK from the Navamsa lagna, Sg., and you will see that all the planets

except Venus, are in kendra and trikona positions as well. The symmetry

between Navamsa lagna, the Atmakaraka, and the Karakamsa lagna are thus so

beautifully arrayed, that (in my mind at least) the true horoscope of

Prabhupada starts to emerge.

One last point: In my researches with the charts of saints and great

spiritual teachers (the topic on which I am currently writing a book), a

fairly consistent combination emerges: the joining of the Arudha lagna,

with the Mantra-pada (Arudha of the 5th house, which shows the timings and

potential of spiritual initiation), in the 9th house or the 5th

house. This can occur in either the rasi chart, or the Navamsa

chart. Now, taking Sg rising in Prabhupada's Navamsa chart, the Arudha

lagna is Leo, the Mantra-pada is also Leo, and both join in the 9th

house. The combination forms verbatim.

There are other combinations for asceticism (Parivrajya yogas), that are

found in Prabhupada's chart, as well as a Shakti-yoga (yoga for

empowerment). I will talk about them soon, but they (for the immediate

discussion) will not help in our rectification debate.

More later,

Robert

=====================================

Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer

Faculty member SJVC and ACVA

Phone: 541-318-0248

visit <http://www.robertkoch.com> or e-mail

rk. rk

October 11, 2001

Dear Nicholas,

At 03:52 PM 10/11/01 +1000, you wrote:

>The astrologers who used this chart [presumed Cp lagna chart] in SPs

>lifetime were blessed with correct prediction but the rectifiers were not

>.So we can judge who is blessed with the jyotish vidya . Usually the

>rectifiers get into rather obscure techniques for which there is no need

>as the original chart makes perfect

>sense .

>Best Wishes

>Nicholas

Come on, now, Nicholas! Aren't we all "rectifiers" who have entered into

this debate on Prabhupada's chart? And how many astrologers do you

personally know of, who made successful predictions based on either version

of the lagna? So, all who agree with you are "blessed withe Jyotir vidya",

and all others are not? And what are the "obscure techniques" you were

referring to? As far as I've seen, everybody entering this debate do far,

as argued strictly from Parasari principles that are not obscure at

all. So, my request to you, is to put your biases or personal attachments

aside, and argue this from a scholarly vantage point. After all, the

stronger arguments will emerge without the dismissing and condescending

rhetoric.

Best wishes,

Robert

=====================================

Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer

Faculty Member, SJVC and ACVA

Phone: 541-318-0248

visit <http://www.robertkoch.com> or e-mail

rk. rk and

rkoch rkoch

October 11, 2001

Om Sri Krsnaaya Namah

Pranaams Robert,

Hare Krsna! Thank you for your replies and also for your complements - your

guidance has allowed me to reach the level of understanding I currently

possess, so I hope you don't see me as directly confronting you and what you

have taught, in this discussion. What I present is how I see Srila

Prabhupada's chart, based on what I've learnt. In any case, I think we can

derive great benefits in our study of Jyotish from an in-depth study of this

chart, and so this exercise must be worthwhile. So, to begin with the points

you raised:

>

> 1. First, do you take the first Navamsa of Capricorn rising then for

> Prabhupada? if so, then please explain the logic of the four planets in

> Aries in the 4th house, as per the larger destiny of his lifetime. And,

> if you can explain those, then tell me if you think that it is

> more likely

> that Ketu, Saturn, Mercury, and Jupiter should join in the 4th, as per Cp

> Navamsa lagna, instead of in the 5th (dharma, and Laksmi) as per

> Sg? If it

> is Cp lagna, then lagna lord Saturn debilitated in the 4th is not

> likely. If it is Sg lagna, then Jupiter in a powerful Parama

> mitra sign of

> Aries, with Mars in the 7th is by far more logical.

>

The Prashna chart I mentioned to you before gave me 6*27 Capricorn as the

lagna. While over the past few years I have played with other degrees e.g. K

N Rao's, Sanjay Rath's etc, over recent months I have come to accept the

Prashna degree having a lot of meaning, and now I use this degree. I've

looked at it up to the level of Dvadasamsas so far, and the results are

excellent. Of course in this discussion we must first establish the correct

rasi chart lagna before rectifying the vargas. But I suppose there's no harm

in using the vargas as long as we are able to find origins of an event in

the rasi we use.

Now, using this navamsa chart places the four planet conjunction in the

third house, and I think this is quite telling of Prabhupada's destiny when

we dissect the combo. Firstly, considering that these planets aspect the

lagna and conjoin the hora lagna, they become yogadas. In fact because they

are in the seventh from Ghatika Lagna, Sanjay might also say they are

potential maha-yogadas (four of them!).

This combination consists of the lagna lord, and two natural benefics being

placed in the third house in Aries. This in fact brings tremendous emphasis

on the third house, and considering that the planets form multiple raja and

dhana yogas, as well as the fact that Mercury is the karaka for writing, we

see that positive third house matters should benefit intensely. They did. He

was a prolific, best-selling author in his field, he was expert in playing

instruments such as Mrdanga, harmonium etc. He was extremely bold and

courageous (you'd have to be to travel to an unknown land with no support,

and just about 40 rupees worth in cash). He was energetic, possessing

goal-directed energy, and was excellent at debate. The presence of the third

Lord in the fifth house of thinking in the intellectual sign of Gemini

simply enhanced these effects. Interestingly enough, Prabhupada began

writing in Saturn Dasa, and continued through to Ketu, and all three of them

are in the third house here, with the HL, and participating in various Raja

and Dhana yoga. Although, the first Lord is debilitated in the third, he

creates neecha bhanga raja yogas, and Saturn's best tapasvi qualities were

displayed in the character of Srila Prabhupada.

Atmakaraka Rahu, sits in the dharma sthana (ninth) of the navamsa, in the

Ghati Lagna, while forming Chaya Graha raja and dhana yogas. Because the

king of the horoscope is so well-situated, the results of the various yogas

were bound to manifest, and that to in the realm of dharmic activities.

The troubled married life of Srila Prabhupada is also seen quite clearly in

this navamsa chart, for the seventh lord occupies the eighth house conjunct

with natural and functional malefic, the Moon, and aspected closely by Mars.

> * Following this line of thought, do you think it is more appropriate to

> have the Arudha (in the Rasi) in the 5th house, or the 4th (Sg as opposed

> to Cp lagnas)?

>

Personally, I don't consider this to be significant. In my research, the

house position of the arudha lagna is particularly significant. This is

especially so considering that (as you pointed out to me) the arudha lagna

can never be in a dussthana. This cuts a quarter of the houses of the game -

houses that may be very significant in the charts of many individuals. But

you point is well-noted - that the fifth house of Sadhana and it's arudha

should be well disposed. In the Capricorn chart, we find that the fifth

house holds a nice chandra-mangala yoga, which is also a separate Dhana yoga

in it's own right. The lord of mantra sthana goes to dharma sthana, and

participates in more yogas there with the exalted lord of dharma sthana. The

mantra pada is in the lagna itself aspected by the spiritual combination of

Sun, Jupiter and Ketu (rasi drishti), and it's Lord is exalted in in the

tenth of karma/work, also generating a Maha Purusa yoga. In the Sagittarius

chart, A5 is pretty well-disposed, but the fifth itself is not. Although

Jupiter aspects it, Saturn - who is a natural, functional and temporal

malefic - aspects the fifth, which happens to be his debilitation sign.

The fifth Lord goes into the sixth house, afflicted by natural and

functional malefic, the Moon. So here also, I see the Capricorn chart to be

more significant.

> * Further to padas of houses: You mentioned that Rahu in the 2nd is more

> likely for a difficult family life, than if in the 3rd. True,

> but what is

> more challenging: Rahu in the 2nd (as per Cp lagna), or Rahu in

> the Upapada

> lagna (as per Sg)?

>

Whilst I may be wrong, with my current level of understanding, I would say

Rahu in the second is more harmful to family life. Rahu in the Upa Pada

Lagna itself is not directly harmful to marriage and family life. My

reasoning on this is as follows:

Jaimini teaches us about the Upa-Pada in Chapter One, Quarter Four of his

Sutras. The first sutra defines the UP. Then from the second sutra onwards,

he teaches us it's use. The first lesson we are taught is:

"If the second from Upa Pada has malefic aspects or conjunctions, the native

loses his wife and renounces the world."(JS 1:4:2)

The noteworthy point here is that the second from the Upa Pada is held to be

responsible for destruction of married life. The next few sutras give

examples of certains yogas in the second which may cause marital problems

etc. The Upa Pada itself is only dealt with from 1:4:9. In 1:4:10, Jaimini

Muni says:

"If the Lord of the Upa Pada is debilitated, the spouse is from a lower

class" (JS 1:4:10)

What is interesting here is that the Upa Pada itself is held to actually

represent the wife, and from it the background, character etc. of the spouse

may be interpreted, but the destruction of married life is determined from

the second from Upa Pada. Applying these principles to Srila Prabhupada's

chart, Rahu in the Upa Pada for Sagittarius may give the spouse a Rahuvian

character, but the second from Upa Pada is aspected solely by two benefics

and this shouldn't have destroyed marriage, giving Sannyasa. Look at the UP

from Cap. and the story is different. The UP itself is fiery Aries, aspected

by fiery Sun, Rahu, Ketu and Jupiter. We can speculate and say that

Prabhupada's wife may have been an independant, fiery lady, with some level

of religiousness as well (she must have been if she married Prabhupada).

However, the second from Upa Pada houses two natural malefics, an is

aspected by Saturn, the karaka for Sannyasa. The Lord of the second from Upa

Pada is debilitated in the sixth from Upa Pada, conjunct the third and sixth

Lord from Upa Pada. The Capricorn chart therefore makes sense from this

perspective also.

> 2. Also, If Cp were rising in the Navamsa (the chart of dharma), that

> would position Venus on the lagna. Now was Prabhupada a Venusian

But I don't put Venus on Navamsa Lagna.

> person? Do we not see pictures of him with a very stern, austere face, a

> Sannyasi of the highest order, completely unattached to anything

Exactly. This is what I see in the Capricorn Rasi, the austere Sannyasi

Srila Prabhupada, who displayed all the qualities one would expect from the

exalted Lagna Lord Saturn in the tenth, while his dispositor goes in the

powerful ninth of dharma, therefore focusing this Sannyasi on the sattvik

path of nishkama Radha-Krsna Bhakti.

> in an enemy sign (Aries), with Saturn and Ketu. He renounced

> marriage and

> family life (Saturn is lord of 2nd), and took Sannyasa. Can you

> show this

> from the proposed Cp lagna in Navamsa?

>

I've looked at this in the navamsa as well as the Upa Pada of the Rasi

chart. Now, if we look at the seventh in the rasi, we see that in the Cap.

chart, the seventh Lord is associated with natural malefic Mars, despite

being exalted (which simply allowed the marriage to last the long time that

it did). Saturn also aspects the seventh, and it is no surprise that

Prabhupada finally renounced marriage life in Saturn Dasa. In fact I seem to

remember that Saturn was also transiting over his natal position when this

occured, therefore triggering this off. From Sagittarius, the only hint of

trouble on the seventh is the aspect of Rahu, and we find that the seventh

lord is in his own sign, conjunct the natural benefic karaka for marriage,

Venus. While Venus's functional malefic nature may cause the odd fight, it

shouldn't have made married life the misery it was.

> Since I am short on time today, let me list a few significant dates in

> Prabhupada's life, and then we can decide which of the two lagnas

> shows the

> events more clearly. After all, this is the technique routinely followed

> in order to hone birth times. With Narayana dasa, or other rasi

> dasas, it

> should be easy. Since many people on this list are not familiar

> with those

> dasa systems, we can confine ourselves to Vimsottari dasa for now.

Thanks for listing these events. I also have more which I will add later. I

think looking at dasha's is going to be interesting to determine the correct

chart, and once we've looked at Vimsottari, perhaps we can look at some of

the rasi dasas that would be particularly appropriate for this chart -

Narayana, Drig, Sudasa and an ayur dasa such as Shoola. I'll start my dasa

analysis soon. As always, I look forward to your comments,

Jaya Jagannatha!

Pursottam

_______

Get your free @ address at

October 11, 2001

Dear Robert,

Interesting cobination of Arudha lagna and matrapada, I checked the

chart of my guru Ammachi - Holy Mother Mata Amritanandamayi, Arudha

lagna and mantra pada combine in the 9th house in both Rasi and

Navamsa.

regards Ravi

gjlist, "Robert A. Koch" <rkoch@b...> wrote:

> One last point: In my researches with the charts of saints and

great

> spiritual teachers (the topic on which I am currently writing a

book), a

> fairly consistent combination emerges: the joining of the Arudha

lagna,

> with the Mantra-pada (Arudha of the 5th house, which shows the

timings and

> potential of spiritual initiation), in the 9th house or the 5th

> house. This can occur in either the rasi chart, or the Navamsa

> chart. Now, taking Sg rising in Prabhupada's Navamsa chart, the

Arudha

> lagna is Leo, the Mantra-pada is also Leo, and both join in the 9th

> house. The combination forms verbatim.

>

> There are other combinations for asceticism (Parivrajya yogas),

that are

> found in Prabhupada's chart, as well as a Shakti-yoga (yoga for

> empowerment). I will talk about them soon, but they (for the

immediate

> discussion) will not help in our rectification debate.

>

> More later,

> Robert

>

> =====================================

> Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer

> Faculty member SJVC and ACVA

> Phone: 541-318-0248

> visit <http://www.robertkoch.com> or e-mail

> rk@r... rk@r...

October 11, 2001

Dear Ravi,

Namaste -

At 07:32 PM 10/11/01 +0000, you wrote:

>Dear Robert,

>

>Interesting cobination of Arudha lagna and matrapada, I checked the

>chart of my guru Ammachi - Holy Mother Mata Amritanandamayi, Arudha

>lagna and mantra pada combine in the 9th house in both Rasi and

>Navamsa.

Thank you for your observation, and confirmation of the above combination

in the chart of Holy Mother Mata Amritanandamayi. These are the kinds of

confirmations that are very helpful in the research that I am doing. So

thanks for that! (I have Ammachi's chart included among those saints that

I am researching, BTW)

Best wishes,

Robert

=====================================

Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer

Faculty Member, SJVC and ACVA

Phone: 541-318-0248

visit <http://www.robertkoch.com> or e-mail

rk. rk and

rkoch rkoch

October 11, 2001

Dear Robert,

As you know I do not accept (in principal) the elevation of (rakshasha) Rahu to

AtmaKaraka (indicator of soul) status.....

Therefore, using the traditional 7 karaka system, Moon assumes the role of

AtmaKaraka...what more likely house for this important planet to reside than in

the mantra-bhava (5th house). The spreading of the Hare Krsna mantra was the

very foundation, the very *soul* of Prabhupada's mission on this earth.

Much more Robert, to say on this chart, but physical weariness restricts the

length of my posts...

Best Wishes,

Wendy

==========================

Wendy Vasicek: Vedic Astrologer

http://welcome.to/Vedic Astrology/

wenvas

-

Robert A. Koch

gjlist

Friday, October 12, 2001 2:25 AM

Re: [gjlist] Srila Prabhupada's lagna