Prabhupada's lagna revisited: transits for relocation

[Guest guest]

Dear Chris,

 

Thanks for weighing in on the Prabhupada lagna issue:

 

>Using Capricorn lagna, Aries is the 4th house and Mars is the 4th lord. At

>the time of his arrival, Saturn 19Aq39 casts its 3H aspect to the 4th house

>(less than 3* from the 4th house cusp(IC) depending on the exact TOB) and

>Rahu 14Ta55 is less than 3* from natal Mars 17Ta02. Transiting Mars 25Li44

>also casts its 7H to Aries for good measure. To me, these are classic

>transits accompanying relocation as they comprise a heavy 3-way affliction

>to the key significators of home. While he likely departed India several

>weeks prior to his arrival in the US, none of these planets would be in

>different signs.

 

Before you can offer an argument in favor of Capricorn, based on transits,

you first have to see the *promise* of not only a move to a foreign country

sometime in life, but also one which would fulfill his destiny. In other

words, the natal chart should indicate that his fullest success in life

comes after moving to a foreign country. Do you see that in the Cp lagna

chart? I do not, frankly. If Cp were rising, change of residence factors

such as lagna lord goes to the 10th; 4th lord goes to the 5th; 7th lord

goes to the 5th; 9th lord is in the 9th, while the 12th lord is in the

8th. Most or all of these should go to the 12th and 9th, if residence in a

foreign country is to be indicated. None of these apply, except only

remotely 12th lord Jupiter aspecting the 4th, from the 8th. Natal

indications have to be established first, before a transit analysis can

give the timing.

 

>Sagitarrius doesn't make a lot of sense here, unless you consider Saturn's

>17*-orbed aspect to 4L Jupiter. Rahu and Mars aren't aspecting anything.

>Obviously, in both lagnas, Rahu is conjunct the Moon, another supporting

>configuration for relocation.

 

Again, see the natal indications first, then go on to the transit

analysis. In the Sg rising chart, 12th lord Ketu (the stronger lord of

dual-ruled Scorpio) joins the lagna and 4th lord Jupiter in the 9th with

9th lord; they are aspected (rasi aspects) by exalted Saturn (western

countries) who rules the Arudha of the 4th (Arudha meaning fullest

manifestation of the natal 4th house potential), as well as the Arudha of

the 12th; secondary 12th lord Mars, joins the karaka of residence Moon in

the 6th house, which is the 9th (dharma) from the 10th (karma), and 10th

from the 9th. The dispositor of 12th lord Mars, Venus, joins exalted 10th

lord Mercury in the 10th. These are all clear (and unambiguous)

indications of success in a foreign country. You have to really stretch

your imagination to see it working in the Cp rising chart.

 

>So while I'm humbled by the learned erudition displayed by both you and

>Pursottam, I think the most compelling explanation for the lagna should

>attempt to explain key events using straightforward astrological

>principles. Sure, it's only one event and it's risky to base a

>rectification on only that, but Capricorn still makes more sense to me.

 

The point of what I write above, is that no transit, or dasa for that

matter, can indicate an event, if the promise is not seen in the natal

chart to start with. Also, "straightforward" is a term loosely used

here. If you are not familiar with a certain method, does that make it

non-straightforward? In my work with rasi dasas, for example, the most

compelling and influential influence of all, so far as residence change is

concerned, is the Arudha of the 4th. Time and again, you will see that

sign or its lord very involved when actual changes of residence take place.

 

Anyway, thanks again for your input -

Robert

 

 

=====================================

Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer

Faculty member SJVC and ACVA

Phone: 541-318-0248

visit <http://www.robertkoch.com> or e-mail

rk. rk

[Guest guest]

Robert:

 

Please see my comments below.

 

At 09:21 PM 10/19/01 -0700, Robert A. Koch wrote:

>Dear Chris,

>

>Thanks for weighing in on the Prabhupada lagna issue:

>

>>Using Capricorn lagna, Aries is the 4th house and Mars is the 4th lord. At

>>the time of his arrival, Saturn 19Aq39 casts its 3H aspect to the 4th house

>>(less than 3* from the 4th house cusp(IC) depending on the exact TOB) and

>>Rahu 14Ta55 is less than 3* from natal Mars 17Ta02. Transiting Mars 25Li44

>>also casts its 7H to Aries for good measure. To me, these are classic

>>transits accompanying relocation as they comprise a heavy 3-way affliction

>>to the key significators of home. While he likely departed India several

>>weeks prior to his arrival in the US, none of these planets would be in

>>different signs.

>

>Before you can offer an argument in favor of Capricorn, based on transits,

>you first have to see the *promise* of not only a move to a foreign country

>sometime in life, but also one which would fulfill his destiny. In other

>words, the natal chart should indicate that his fullest success in life

>comes after moving to a foreign country. Do you see that in the Cp lagna

>chart? I do not, frankly. If Cp were rising, change of residence factors

>such as lagna lord goes to the 10th; 4th lord goes to the 5th; 7th lord

>goes to the 5th; 9th lord is in the 9th, while the 12th lord is in the

>8th. Most or all of these should go to the 12th and 9th, if residence in a

>foreign country is to be indicated. None of these apply, except only

>remotely 12th lord Jupiter aspecting the 4th, from the 8th. Natal

>indications have to be established first, before a transit analysis can

>give the timing.

 

Right. I agree that the natal chart has to show the possibility of an

event occurring. But so do the transits. The whole thing has to hang

together. First off, I wonder if emigration looks the same when it occurs

at age 5 as it does at age 69. I'm not trying to weasel out of anything

here, I just realized that Prabhupada spent 69 years of his life in India,

and only emigrated late in life. Would this look the same as someone who

spent only their childhood in their home country and then the bulk of their

lives abroad? I haven't thought of this before but perhaps the level or

nature of affliction might differ somehow. Something to think about.

 

Yes, the Sagittarius lagna does provide some classic configurations for

emigration: 4L Jupiter in close conjunction with Ketu and 12L Mars aspects

4L Jupiter as well as the other things you mention. But while I admit it

is on balance better than the Capricorn lagna picture, the Capricorn lagna

does offer some reasonable support for emigration too. 4L Mars aspects 12L

Jupiter (the association of these two houses is a consistent pattern in the

charts of emigres.) 12L Jupiter is closely conjunct Ketu which suggests

that his experience in foreign lands would be tied to religion. And 12L

Jupiter aspects the 4th house, 4L Mars aspects the 12th house, while

lagnesh Saturn also aspects the 12th house. Why is that such a stretch?

Moreover, if you look at his chandra lagna chart, it is also suggestive of

relocation as well, irrespective of lagna. 12L Mars in the lagna with the

Moon, karaka of home, 4L Sun although strong in Leo is conjunct Ketu and of

course that 12L Mars is aspecting the 4L Sun.

 

So the chandra chart gives some support to the idea of emigration by

itself, and the Capricorn chart provides much more still. Sure, the

Sagittarius chart is better, but the Capricorn chart isn't as bereft of

promise as you say. Moreover, when you combine the natal "promise" and the

timing/transit pictures, then the balance still tilts heavily to the

Capricorn lagna. That's because while the promise is only incrementally

better with the Sagittarius lagna, the transits for Sagittarius are really

lacking. But the transits for the Cap lagna are exactly what you would

expect. So in my opinion, the natal promise and the transits hang together

better with the Capricorn lagna.

 

>

>>Sagitarrius doesn't make a lot of sense here, unless you consider Saturn's

>>17*-orbed aspect to 4L Jupiter. Rahu and Mars aren't aspecting anything.

>>Obviously, in both lagnas, Rahu is conjunct the Moon, another supporting

>>configuration for relocation.

>

>Again, see the natal indications first, then go on to the transit

>analysis. In the Sg rising chart, 12th lord Ketu (the stronger lord of

>dual-ruled Scorpio) joins the lagna and 4th lord Jupiter in the 9th with

>9th lord; they are aspected (rasi aspects) by exalted Saturn (western

>countries) who rules the Arudha of the 4th (Arudha meaning fullest

>manifestation of the natal 4th house potential), as well as the Arudha of

>the 12th; secondary 12th lord Mars, joins the karaka of residence Moon in

>the 6th house, which is the 9th (dharma) from the 10th (karma), and 10th

>from the 9th. The dispositor of 12th lord Mars, Venus, joins exalted 10th

>lord Mercury in the 10th. These are all clear (and unambiguous)

>indications of success in a foreign country. You have to really stretch

>your imagination to see it working in the Cp rising chart.

>

>>So while I'm humbled by the learned erudition displayed by both you and

>>Pursottam, I think the most compelling explanation for the lagna should

>>attempt to explain key events using straightforward astrological

>>principles. Sure, it's only one event and it's risky to base a

>>rectification on only that, but Capricorn still makes more sense to me.

>

>The point of what I write above, is that no transit, or dasa for that

>matter, can indicate an event, if the promise is not seen in the natal

>chart to start with. Also, "straightforward" is a term loosely used

>here. If you are not familiar with a certain method, does that make it

>non-straightforward? In my work with rasi dasas, for example, the most

>compelling and influential influence of all, so far as residence change is

>concerned, is the Arudha of the 4th. Time and again, you will see that

>sign or its lord very involved when actual changes of residence take place.

 

I'll take a look at the Arudha of the 4th, but in my experience, the

straightforward (read: simple) approach works well. It's not foolproof of

course, and I like to refer to the the D-4 chart and outer planets and all

that other stuff, but it provides a reliable core for chart analysis. I'm

not against learning or using new techniques, but I think they should

supplement the things we already know. The idea of confluence is a

powerful one for me and I take that to mean that the more indications are

saying the same thing, the more likely it is to be true. But that entails

"simple" measures agreeing with other techniques, something that doesn't

seem to be happening with the Sag lagna. And yes, I know arudha lagnas and

rashi dashas and aspects aren't hard at all, but most people tend to learn

them later on in their studies.

 

all the best,

 

Chris

 

>

>Anyway, thanks again for your input -

>Robert

>

>

>=====================================

>Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer

>Faculty member SJVC and ACVA

> Phone: 541-318-0248

>visit <http://www.robertkoch.com> or e-mail

>rk. rk

>

>

>

>

>Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat

>: gjlist-

>

>

>

>Your use of is subject to

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> Yes, the Sagittarius lagna does provide some classic

configurations for emigration: 4L Jupiter in close

conjunction with Ketu and 12L Mars aspects

4L Jupiter as well as the other things you mention.

But while I admit it is on balance better than the

Capricorn lagna picture, the Capricorn lagna

does offer some reasonable support for emigration

too. <

 

Chris,

For the Sagittarius ascendent, I believe the nodal

transit on the 6/12 axis highlighted by the Solar

Eclipse in Taurus before his departure is significant.

The health and emigration axis is covered and Ra

transiting 6H can give health problems.

 

The use of transits for travel is a complex one.

Do 4H transits give a desire to travel or buy a new

house or car or relocate?

Afflictions to the 4H or its lord may give travel due

to troublesome circumstances in the home.

Maybe the 3H should be involved since this is the

house of relocation (12From4)

Maybe the 11H since this can be changes around the

home ( 8fr4)

Then there are the travel houses 9,7,12.

 

With some charts any little trigger can cause travel

and the person travels continually. Since Prabhupada

emigrated late in life there would need to be a major

trigger.

When I examined the two charts ,I saw RKA on 6/12 for

the Sagittarius ascendent as well as transit

activation of the travel houses ( 9 and 7).

I would think Tr Sa in 3H Tr Su in 9H (and possibly

Me) and Tr Ju in 7H would more indicate travel than

4H transits in this case.

 

Regards

Ron

 

 

 

 

Make a great connection at Personals.

http://personals.

[Guest guest]

Ron:

 

At 04:03 PM 10/20/01 -0700, Ron Day wrote:

>> Yes, the Sagittarius lagna does provide some classic

> configurations for emigration: 4L Jupiter in close

>conjunction with Ketu and 12L Mars aspects

> 4L Jupiter as well as the other things you mention.

> But while I admit it is on balance better than the

>Capricorn lagna picture, the Capricorn lagna

> does offer some reasonable support for emigration

> too. <

>

>Chris,

>For the Sagittarius ascendent, I believe the nodal

>transit on the 6/12 axis highlighted by the Solar

>Eclipse in Taurus before his departure is significant.

>The health and emigration axis is covered and Ra

>transiting 6H can give health problems.

 

OK, but I've found that house location of eclipses are pretty unreliable

sources of information. Just my opinion. I would point out that the SE at

15Ta55 is about one degree away from Prabhupada's Mars at 17Ta02. Of

course, the $64,000 question is: is that Mars the 4L (Cap lagna) or the 12L

(Sag lagna)? I guess you could argue it either way since both are

plausible configurations for relocation. To me, it fits better with

Capricorn because eclipse generally indicate interruptions or reversals --

like the Moon interrupting the Sun's light -- and thus that fits with Mars

as the 4th lord of residence. But obviously, it's possible to make this

fit into Sagittarius as well.

 

>

>The use of transits for travel is a complex one.

>Do 4H transits give a desire to travel or buy a new

>house or car or relocate?

>Afflictions to the 4H or its lord may give travel due

>to troublesome circumstances in the home.

 

I agree that the 4th house like all houses has multiple significations.

But the key point here is we *know* he changed his residence and relocated

to the US, so whether these transits connote a new car or new home is moot.

The fact that they were all separative planets supports the idea that they

were afflicting the man's residence and corresponded with his removal from

his home and homeland.

 

and

>Maybe the 3H should be involved since this is the

>house of relocation (12From4)

>Maybe the 11H since this can be changes around the

>home ( 8fr4)

>Then there are the travel houses 9,7,12.

 

Yeah, could be. But if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then

it's probably a duck! :-)

 

>

>With some charts any little trigger can cause travel

>and the person travels continually. Since Prabhupada

>emigrated late in life there would need to be a major

>trigger.

>When I examined the two charts ,I saw RKA on 6/12 for

>the Sagittarius ascendent as well as transit

>activation of the travel houses ( 9 and 7).

>I would think Tr Sa in 3H Tr Su in 9H (and possibly

>Me) and Tr Ju in 7H would more indicate travel than

>4H transits in this case.

 

Travel is a part of it, but I think there has to be clearer indications for

loss of home. That's why I would focus more on the 4th and 12th houses,

rather than the 9th.

 

Chris

 

>

>Regards

>Ron

>

>

>

>

>Make a great connection at Personals.

>http://personals.

>

>

>

>Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat

>: gjlist-

>

>

>

>Your use of is subject to

>

>

>

>