Transits/dasas/Prabhupada

[Guest guest]

Dear Chris,

 

You wrote:

 

>Right. I agree that the natal chart has to show the possibility of an

>event occurring. But so do the transits.

 

I want to make the following point, before going on with this

dialogue. And that is, that traditional Jyotishis look at transits as

secondary indicators, or triggers, to the occurrence of an event. The

primary indicators are the dasas. If a dasa indicates the potential for an

event to occur, then the transits may be employed to pinpoint the

timing. In all my years working with Jyotishis, whether professional or

otherwise, dasas were the method of choice to start out with when timing an

event. This is the reason why I chose a rasi dasa, particularly Narayana

dasa, to give the movements of Prabhupada's life and destiny, as the whole

lagna rasi initiates the calculation of the dasa. With this in mind,

whether we choose Sg or Cp, will depend on (1) the stronger one to indicate

the events transpired in life; and (2) the one from which the Narayana

dasas fit those events more correctly. By themselves, transits not seen

within the framework or operative dasas, are like a ship without a

rudder. They cannot be relied upon alone as sole indicators of actual

events.

 

> First off, I wonder if emigration looks the same when it occurs

>at age 5 as it does at age 69. I'm not trying to weasel out of anything

>here, I just realized that Prabhupada spent 69 years of his life in India,

>and only emigrated late in life. Would this look the same as someone who

>spent only their childhood in their home country and then the bulk of their

>lives abroad? I haven't thought of this before but perhaps the level or

>nature of affliction might differ somehow. Something to think about.

 

One of the points I made in my last post, was that the most important

professional and dharmic achievement in Prabhupada's life, occurred after

the age of 70. Secondly, if the full achievement of professional destiny

is to be achieved in a foreign country (which it did for Prabhupada), then

you have to see (1) stronger indicators of foreign destiny between Sg and

Cp); and (2) when the most likely time in life would be for it to

occur. For (1), Venus in the 10th with 10th lord Mercury, is key, as Venus

disposits 12th lord Mars. Paradesa saham (foreign travels) lord is Saturn,

who being in Libra, gives Venus additional indications of professional

destiny in a foreign country. These indications are not so clear in Cp

rising. From Cp, lagna lord is exalted in the 10th, 120th lord is in the

9th, and neither have any connection with the 12th house.

 

So, since the Sc (12th house) dasa was operating in the Sg lagna chart at

the time of Prabhupada's travels to the USA, a very clear and reasonable

time had arrived for a this event to occur. Now apply the transits: Saturn

was in Taurus Rx, at 20 degrees. This alone is significant. Why? from

Taurus he joins 12th lord Mars, and aspects the 12th house itself. If Cp

were rising, Saturn would be transiting the 5th, with no relation at all

with the 12th house. Remember natal Saturn's significance too, as lord of

Paradesa saham in the Sg rising chart. Jupiter was transiting in Gemini,

the 7th house, aspecting Saturn, as well as Paradesa saham itself, which is

9 Aquarius. Sun was transiting in Libra, wherein Saturn natally is

placed. Further, the event of his having two heart attacks during his

journey can be seen easily with Saturn transiting in the 6th with natal 5th

lord, and exalted 8th lord Moon. Saturn transiting in the 5th of the Cp

rising chart does not show the occurrence of a life-threatening

affliction. The point thus, is that first the framework of karma or

destiny has to be setup through operative dasas; then, transits can be

employed to trigger the event. Rahu also was transiting in Gemini. So the

transiting lagna and 4th lord Jupiter, plus Rahu (who inclines toward

transition), both aspect the Paradesa saham, as well as its lord,

Saturn. The best dasa for this to occur in, would be that of the 12th

house, which in fact was in place at the time of his arrival in the

USA. PS is directly in the 4th house from dasa rasi as well.

 

>I'll take a look at the Arudha of the 4th, but in my experience, the

>straightforward (read: simple) approach works well. It's not foolproof of

>course, and I like to refer to the the D-4 chart and outer planets and all

>that other stuff, but it provides a reliable core for chart analysis. I'm

>not against learning or using new techniques, but I think they should

>supplement the things we already know. The idea of confluence is a

>powerful one for me and I take that to mean that the more indications are

>saying the same thing, the more likely it is to be true. But that entails

>"simple" measures agreeing with other techniques, something that doesn't

>seem to be happening with the Sag lagna. And yes, I know arudha lagnas and

>rashi dashas and aspects aren't hard at all, but most people tend to learn

>them later on in their studies.

 

Or rather you should say, most people don't learn them at all. This is a

tragedy, given that a plethora of naksatra as well as rasi dasas were

taught by the Maharishis, beginning with Parasara, then Jaimini, and

expounded upon by others. Such things as Argala, Arudha padas, rasi

drishti, etc. are as plain as day in the BPHS, and so why are they so

neglected? In fact, that is likely to be the reason why Jaimini wrote a

separate treatise - namely, that astrologers even in Parasara's day

neglected such important principles, and Jaimini wanted to bring them to

light. Sanjay Rath as brought these to the fore, as a representative of

the Jyotish parampara of Sri Achyuta, and now you can see the magic of

using them. Most astrologers neglect varga chart analysis too, even when

Parasara specifically states, for example, that matters of ancestry are to

be seen from D-12, matters of learning from D-24, or matters of material

affliction from D-30. The stubborn insistence of some, that only the rasi

chart holds the keys to interpretation, and only Vimsottari dasa should be

used, neglects some of the very basics upon which Parasari astrology was

founded. It is because astrologers tend to use only a very limited set of

principles, that there are unresolved debates as to whether the lagna of

Prabhupada is this or that. If we take hold of the greater body of tools

given, then such resolutions become easier and easier. Now, if in such a

debate, an astrologer does not accept the tools of interpretation of

another, then how will the issue ever be solved?

 

Anyway, I will leave what I have to say here. Comments welcome.........

Robert

 

=====================================

Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer

Faculty member SJVC and ACVA

Phone: 541-318-0248

visit <http://www.robertkoch.com> or e-mail

rk. rk

[Guest guest]

Robert:

 

At 03:21 PM 10/20/01 -0700, Robert A. Koch wrote:

>Dear Chris,

>

>You wrote:

>

>>Right. I agree that the natal chart has to show the possibility of an

>>event occurring. But so do the transits.

>

>I want to make the following point, before going on with this

>dialogue. And that is, that traditional Jyotishis look at transits as

>secondary indicators, or triggers, to the occurrence of an event. The

>primary indicators are the dasas. If a dasa indicates the potential for an

>event to occur, then the transits may be employed to pinpoint the

>timing. In all my years working with Jyotishis, whether professional or

>otherwise, dasas were the method of choice to start out with when timing an

>event. This is the reason why I chose a rasi dasa, particularly Narayana

>dasa, to give the movements of Prabhupada's life and destiny, as the whole

>lagna rasi initiates the calculation of the dasa. With this in mind,

>whether we choose Sg or Cp, will depend on (1) the stronger one to indicate

>the events transpired in life; and (2) the one from which the Narayana

>dasas fit those events more correctly. By themselves, transits not seen

>within the framework or operative dasas, are like a ship without a

>rudder. They cannot be relied upon alone as sole indicators of actual

>events.

 

Right. I avoided mentioning the dashas because like James Braha, I've

found them too inexact to be used for rectification. Plus, given the

plethora of dasha systems, it is very difficult to come to a mutually

satisfactory agreement about what they might mean for different lagnas. I

chose to focus on transits because they are something that are less subject

to interpretive slippage. By themselves, they can't "cause" things to

occur, but when something significant occurs in a native's life, they

usually paint the picture to some extent.

 

>

>> First off, I wonder if emigration looks the same when it occurs

>>at age 5 as it does at age 69. I'm not trying to weasel out of anything

>>here, I just realized that Prabhupada spent 69 years of his life in India,

>>and only emigrated late in life. Would this look the same as someone who

>>spent only their childhood in their home country and then the bulk of their

>>lives abroad? I haven't thought of this before but perhaps the level or

>>nature of affliction might differ somehow. Something to think about.

>

>One of the points I made in my last post, was that the most important

>professional and dharmic achievement in Prabhupada's life, occurred after

>the age of 70. Secondly, if the full achievement of professional destiny

>is to be achieved in a foreign country (which it did for Prabhupada), then

>you have to see (1) stronger indicators of foreign destiny between Sg and

>Cp); and (2) when the most likely time in life would be for it to

>occur. For (1), Venus in the 10th with 10th lord Mercury, is key, as Venus

>disposits 12th lord Mars. Paradesa saham (foreign travels) lord is Saturn,

>who being in Libra, gives Venus additional indications of professional

>destiny in a foreign country. These indications are not so clear in Cp

>rising. From Cp, lagna lord is exalted in the 10th, 120th lord is in the

>9th, and neither have any connection with the 12th house.

 

Agreed, on the face of it, the Sagittarius chart seems stronger -- although

why not make mention of the Capricorn A10 in Leo and thus conjunct 12L

Jupiter and Ketu? But also is it correct to surmise that all aspects of a

native's life can be seen in the rashi chart? This is a controversial

point but it is something I have been thinking about for a while. Why do

we see such different trajectories in the charts of twins born only minutes

apart if they have the same lagna and the same planetary placements?

Usually, the answer is found in the varga charts and the navamsha chart

specifically. But the real question that arises from this realization is:

does this special emphasis on the navamsha chart only apply in the case of

twins? Is it because they have a special 'twin karma' that compels us to

look at the navamsha chart primarily? Or is this the lesson that twins are

teaching us, that we should pay more attention to the navamsha than most of

us usually do? I don't know the question to that question, but I suspect

that the navamsha has a lot to teach us. And of course, I would be remiss

if I didn't mention that Capricorn lagna navamsha has Aquarius rising and

thus 12L Saturn (in the 3rd house of communication with Mercury, Jupiter

and Ketu) aspects 10L Mars in the 5th house, and 4L/9L Venus was in the

12th house! :-) Not a bad chart for a spiritual leader who prospered in a

foreign land!

 

>So, since the Sc (12th house) dasa was operating in the Sg lagna chart at

>the time of Prabhupada's travels to the USA, a very clear and reasonable

>time had arrived for a this event to occur. Now apply the transits: Saturn

>was in Taurus Rx, at 20 degrees. This alone is significant. Why? from

>Taurus he joins 12th lord Mars, and aspects the 12th house itself. If Cp

>were rising, Saturn would be transiting the 5th, with no relation at all

>with the 12th house.

 

Right, this is conundrum we face when looking at Mars in both charts since

it is 4th lord in one and 12th lord in the other. But my feeling is that

Saturn is an affliction and that an affliction to the 12th lord wouldn't

bring about emigration but some bad experince or loss in the foreign land.

So with Capricorn, Saturn is aspecting the 4L Mars and thus sets up a loss

of residence. You say tomahto and I say

tomayto...

 

Remember natal Saturn's significance too, as lord of

>Paradesa saham in the Sg rising chart. Jupiter was transiting in Gemini,

>the 7th house, aspecting Saturn, as well as Paradesa saham itself, which is

>9 Aquarius. Sun was transiting in Libra, wherein Saturn natally is

>placed.

 

I think there are a couple of formulas for that saham alone and I gather

you are using 9H-9L+Asc. Raman gives an alterate formula with Asc lord

rather than Asc. Using Asc lord, this gives 14 Leo -- aspected by

transiting Saturn, while if you use Capricorn lagna, you get 15 Libra, and

that's aspected by Jupiter. So that's not really decisive either way.

 

Further, the event of his having two heart attacks during his

>journey can be seen easily with Saturn transiting in the 6th with natal 5th

>lord, and exalted 8th lord Moon. Saturn transiting in the 5th of the Cp

>rising chart does not show the occurrence of a life-threatening

>affliction. The point thus, is that first the framework of karma or

>destiny has to be setup through operative dasas; then, transits can be

>employed to trigger the event. Rahu also was transiting in Gemini.

 

I have Rahu transiting Taurus. Anyway, one could also interpret the health

problems with Capricorn. Rahu is aspecting 6L Mercury and Saturn is very

closely aspecting 8L Sun, the karaka for the heart in the house of sudden

distress, 4th from the Moon.

 

So the

>transiting lagna and 4th lord Jupiter, plus Rahu (who inclines toward

>transition), both aspect the Paradesa saham, as well as its lord,

>Saturn. The best dasa for this to occur in, would be that of the 12th

>house, which in fact was in place at the time of his arrival in the

>USA. PS is directly in the 4th house from dasa rasi as well.

>

> >I'll take a look at the Arudha of the 4th, but in my experience, the

>>straightforward (read: simple) approach works well. It's not foolproof of

>>course, and I like to refer to the the D-4 chart and outer planets and all

>>that other stuff, but it provides a reliable core for chart analysis. I'm

>>not against learning or using new techniques, but I think they should

>>supplement the things we already know. The idea of confluence is a

>>powerful one for me and I take that to mean that the more indications are

>>saying the same thing, the more likely it is to be true. But that entails

>>"simple" measures agreeing with other techniques, something that doesn't

>>seem to be happening with the Sag lagna. And yes, I know arudha lagnas and

>>rashi dashas and aspects aren't hard at all, but most people tend to learn

>>them later on in their studies.

>

>Or rather you should say, most people don't learn them at all. This is a

>tragedy, given that a plethora of naksatra as well as rasi dasas were

>taught by the Maharishis, beginning with Parasara, then Jaimini, and

>expounded upon by others. Such things as Argala, Arudha padas, rasi

>drishti, etc. are as plain as day in the BPHS, and so why are they so

>neglected?

 

Probably out of laziness mostly, but also I'd like to think because for

some astrologers they are unnecessary. The point of astrology isn't to

learn everything that's ever been written about it. It's to make correct

predictions and give people useful insights in their own lives. If some

astrologers can accomplish that knowing only a few techniques, then they

don't have to bother with anything else. For those gifted souls, less is

more.

 

In fact, that is likely to be the reason why Jaimini wrote a

>separate treatise - namely, that astrologers even in Parasara's day

>neglected such important principles, and Jaimini wanted to bring them to

>light. Sanjay Rath as brought these to the fore, as a representative of

>the Jyotish parampara of Sri Achyuta, and now you can see the magic of

>using them.

 

I'm afraid I don't see the magic of them. I see a proliferation of

techniques that will make it nearly impossible to adjudicate competing

truth claims. One interesting consequence of this debate and others like

it, is that it is nearly impossible to figure out which approach to a chart

is the correct one if the participants are using different parameters and

instruments. How can we tell if the astrologer who uses parallax corrected

Moon dashas is more accurate than the one who does not? How can we tell if

KP practitioner is right in his assertion that a native is Libra rising

while the Parasharan astrologer insists on Virgo? We can't because they

are using different words, even different languages to state their cases.

Maybe that's all they can do, and then leave it up to the free market of

mailing lists to decide who is more persuasive. That will invariably

happen anyway. I'm not lamenting the presence of different ways of doing

things here. That's inevitable. But when we're trying to see which is the

correct lagna, I guess we really need to be using the same tools.

Competing truth claims require a certain rigour when it comes to method.

If not, then we have to go back to first principles. Like in the

neverending debate on parallax, how many cases would we have to compare

before deciding which is better? But life is short and who has the time

to spend on stuff like that?

 

Most astrologers neglect varga chart analysis too, even when

>Parasara specifically states, for example, that matters of ancestry are to

>be seen from D-12, matters of learning from D-24, or matters of material

>affliction from D-30. The stubborn insistence of some, that only the rasi

>chart holds the keys to interpretation, and only Vimsottari dasa should be

>used, neglects some of the very basics upon which Parasari astrology was

>founded.

 

Yes, as I suggested above, I think varga charts are indispensible. Let's

use them.

 

It is because astrologers tend to use only a very limited set of

>principles, that there are unresolved debates as to whether the lagna of

>Prabhupada is this or that. If we take hold of the greater body of tools

>given, then such resolutions become easier and easier.

 

I don't really see this, since sheer volume of tools doesn't speak to their

utility nor to their complementarity. How do we know a tool works well if

it is contigent of a multiplicity of conditions that are themselves too

complex to subject to some sort of testing?

 

Now, if in such a

>debate, an astrologer does not accept the tools of interpretation of

>another, then how will the issue ever be solved?

 

Precisely. There cannot be agreement when the approaches differ. Oh well.

It's astrology after all.

 

>

>Anyway, I will leave what I have to say here. Comments welcome.........

>Robert

 

I think there may be a lot going for these Jaimini techniques, but it just

hasn't happened for me. I've been told they work in a confluent manner,

and thus provide confirmatory evidence of something that other tools

already indicate. If that is so, then how can we show them to be true,

since there is already other indicators saying the same thing? Makes me

think of a winemaker who has a secret family recipe for making his wine.

It stipulates which vines to pick, what time of the day to pick them, what

temperature is best for picking, how much pressure should be used to crush

them, how long the juice should ferment, how big the casks for storage

should be, what direction the casks should face and on and on. Maybe

dozens or even hundreds of factors go into making his wine. But who knows

how many are crucial for that distinctive taste and which ones don't really

matter? Maybe it doesn't really matter if the grapes are picked on a

cloudy day rather than a sunny one, but he'll never find out. He

scrupulously follows the recipe handed down to him by his father and

grandfather that dictates that the sun should be shining and it should be

at least 20c. Who's going to make the wine changing one factor at a time

and then comparing the taste of each of the 100 bottles?

 

Chris

 

 

>=====================================

>Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer

>Faculty member SJVC and ACVA

> Phone: 541-318-0248

>visit <http://www.robertkoch.com> or e-mail

>rk. rk

>

>

>

>

>Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat

>: gjlist-

>

>

>

>Your use of is subject to

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Chris,

 

Also,

 

Transits are judged from the Moon. You were judging transit aspects

in relation to the lagna. Usually, transit effects just aren't

related to the lagna.

 

Dharmapada

 

gjlist, "Robert A. Koch" <rkoch@b...> wrote:

> Dear Chris,

>

> You wrote:

>

> >Right. I agree that the natal chart has to show the possibility

of an

> >event occurring. But so do the transits.

>

> I want to make the following point, before going on with this

> dialogue. And that is, that traditional Jyotishis look at transits

as

> secondary indicators, or triggers, to the occurrence of an event.

The

> primary indicators are the dasas. If a dasa indicates the

potential for an

> event to occur, then the transits may be employed to pinpoint the

> timing

[Guest guest]

Om Gurave Namah

--------------------------

Dear Dharmapada Prabhu,

 

Please consider this - Transits are also seen from Lagna as well as the

Navamsa position of individual planets in addition to the Moon. Trasits are

also seen for various vital points called Saham. Brighu transits are a full

system by itself. But transits are very difficult to use to justify a lagna

as these shall have multiple effects.

 

The Late Shri Shankar had taught us a very vital transit system wherein he

woulf alter all planets on the basis of equating the Lagna to Zero degree of

aries (Astrological Magazine). I find this superb, but cannot try this too

often in other charts as the siftware do not provide this. It is based on

the premisee that every chart is a rflection of Kalapurusha.

 

Example: Say My Lagna is 14 deg Pisces, and my jupiter is in 26 Deg Pisces,

then, if my Lagna is increased by 16 Deg, it will become ZERO aries. Thus

add 16 Deg to all planets and we get the following:

Sun Cancer 21 deg + 16 Deg = Leo 7 Deg

Moon Aquarius 20 deg + 16 deg = Pis 6 Deg

....and so on.

Now see the Natural transit of planets in Aries etc signs from these

"Corrected" planetary placements. WHAT A GREAT CONCEPT ANT TEACHING. For

more details you will need to do some searching in the old issues of the

astrological Magazine.

 

Best Wishes

Sanjay Rath

[Guest guest]

>The Late Shri Shankar had taught us a very vital

transit system wherein he woulf alter all planets on

the basis of equating the Lagna to Zero degree of

aries (Astrological Magazine). I find this superb, but

cannot try this too often in other charts as the

siftware do not provide this. It is based on the

premisee that every chart is a rflection of

Kalapurusha.<

 

 

Dear Sanjay,

Another interesting technique to investigate. Thanks

for sharing.

 

I decided to try this on Prabhupada's chart using an

ascendent of 0* Cp as a starting point. This will be

close to the correct ascendent.

The event is his departure from India on 16 Aug 1965

which I recently found from the local Hare Krishna

temple. I was also told that other event dates in his

life such as marriage and children may be in the 5

volume series, Prabhupadha Lilamrita. Could any one

verify this?

 

It is interesting to note that transiting Sa ,Ju and

Ve are within a degree of their corrected values for

the 0* Aries chart. Ve and Ju represent travel

/emigration and Sa as lord of 11H (8from4) is changes

re home environment.

 

As the ascendent degree increases ,the corrected

planetary values increase and the correspondence to

transit planets diminishes.

It seems that the technique is based on comparing

degree values of transiting planets to corrected 0*

Aries planets and could be used for rectification.

It will need some experience to fine tune it.

I need to check this on several charts but maybe close

rectification can be done via the navamsha.

 

Regards

Ron

 

 

 

 

 

Make a great connection at Personals.

http://personals.

[Guest guest]

> The Late Shri Shankar had taught us a very vital

transit system wherein he woulf alter all planets on

the basis of equating the Lagna to Zero degree of

aries (Astrological Magazine). I find this superb,

but cannot try this too often in other charts as the

siftware do not provide this. <

 

Dear Sanjay,

Some western astrological programs could do this eg in

Solar Fire the sequence is--Chart,Progressed,User arc

directed.

The only manual calculation would be to find the

ascendent arc difference.

 

Regards

Ron

 

 

 

 

Make a great connection at Personals.

http://personals.